Necromancer Mages should not be permanent

Necromancer
Its literally a click fest with non-permanent mages. I'd like to play a Diablo game not whack a mole, thank you.
The very first day I got my Rathma set, I had to drop it due to wrist pain.

I play on PS4, and my right thumb has to do freaking everything. It's like dance dance revolution on turbo using my thumb.
07/27/2017 08:34 AMPosted by Rashiel
The duration issue is still a problem since it leaves very small windows of casting anything else.


Mages require one cast every 3 seconds to keep 10 up 100% of the time. In practice, you don't need all 10 up all the time as there is usually time spent moving between groups of enemies. In practice, you can rapidly cast it three times in a row every 9 seconds or so. One action, every 9 seconds. (Call the Hague, right?)

Command Skeleton needs one cast every 10 seconds or so, even less if you are moving forward the whole time. Curses require about the same cast rate. Revive needs even less to keep at capacity. Golem is situational and on a cool down. AotD is also on a cool down. One or two casts of your generator per cycle is enough to keep up your essence for all the non-singularity mage runes.

What else exactly is taking up so much of your time? What else could you possible need to be casting constantly that you can't do in between all that?

With 2 APS, mages are only taking up 1/6th of your possible actions. You aren't casting any significant direct damage spells, so it's not like your DPS suffers from a 16% reduction in casting.

IDK, but I am thinking you haven't really thought this through. The problem you are describing is NOT EVEN POSSIBLE.

07/27/2017 08:05 PMPosted by jtcdgroup
Its literally a click fest with non-permanent mages. I'd like to play a Diablo game not whack a mole, thank you.


Okay dork, it is *not* "literally a click fest". The last time I played Necro, there were zero festivals, soirees, conventions, ceremonies or even casual get-togethers. Not even a potlatch. There is no way the word literal could apply to that phrase in this context.

Snark aside, if you are performing actions less than once every 3 seconds, you aren't playing well, no matter the class or build. It's fricken Diablo dude, the entire game is built around clicking/attacking as fast as possible. Take all the AS off your character and tell me that's better. (hint, it isn't)

All of this is even more stupid when you consider that you need to be casting mages more often than their duration requires just for optimal targeting and defense. Permanent mages wouldn't change that at all. i.e. The people complaining about the cast frequency need to L2P.

And here's the really stupid part of the whole "Mages are a-posed too be purmnant cuz d2" "argument": Try replacing summon mage with any other ability in the game.

"How come you have to cast multishot all the time for it to do damage?"

You all sound like morons fixated on one superficial "fact" that's more than a decade past its prime. Mages from D2 are completely irrelevant. Grow the !@#$ up and get over it.
^

Obvious troll, calling names and can't spell.
No need permanent mages. With Simulacrum you'll always pop 4 singularity mages with one cast when using the ring, all of them getting full 650+ essence bonus and getting Rathma 6pc bonus.

Then you use/cube the Requiem Cereplate and use Haunted Visions to make Similacrum last 30sec. The chest will fill up your 660 essence pool in 0.1seconds and Haunted Vision makes Similacrum pretty much permanent on torment rifts.
What else exactly is taking up so much of your time? What else could you possible need to be casting constantly that you can't do in between all that?

With 2 APS, mages are only taking up 1/6th of your possible actions. You aren't casting any significant direct damage spells, so it's not like your DPS suffers from a 16% reduction in casting.


Okay, to clarify, the singularity rune is the rune of choice since it far over performs than the others.

Every click on the mages drains the whole essence bar, thus you need to regenerate to cast another adding extra seconds.

Devour needs corpses so you need to kill something before you can use that. You need command skeleton every six second or so, plus updating decrepify (since if the enemy dies, you don't get the bonus for it). If you're lucky, you get a rift with easy stationary mobs which will not attack you, so you can set up all this without a worry.

It's not that it's not possible, but it's tedious game play. Had it been 15 seconds (double with amulet) then you'd have time in between to do stuff before your first mages start despawning.
"NECROMANCER MAGES SHOULD NOT BE PERMANENT" said no one ever!
To me it seems like reaching a compromise is simple.

First, buff the other runes so singularity provides a small dps advantage over other choices, instead of the current huge one.

Second, make mages permanent for all runes BUT singularity, keep the duration the same for singularity.

That way those who want the small edge or simply love spamming skills will keep using singularity (and end with 90yo wrists at the age of 30, more power to them).
While those that prefer a more laid back true summoner playstyle can keep their sanity but not be overly rewarded for being lazier
I'm just gonna answer to the statement made in the title, because the the OP doesn't really touch on why I want mages to be permanent.

My biggest gripe with this entire game right now is the micromanagement involved with most (if not all) builds. Having to constantly reapply buffs and abilities only adds stress. Just because we have more to do doesn't mean we're having more fun. At some point, it's just needless complexity made to occupy the player.

I want my pets to kill stuff while I assist. A pure and simple, passive pet build. It's what most people wanted, if I'm not mistaken... something as close as possible to D2's Necromancer.
07/27/2017 11:20 AMPosted by starcraft111
Counterpoint: as it is it's tedious.
Tedious =/= fun

Is it, really? Imho, they feel a lot like the old Taeguk did. People complained about having to keep the rotation up in order to preserve your stacks, but I happened to like the playstyle because it suited the stutter-stepping techniques I've grown used to over the years as a DH. The only problem is damage ramp up time, but I find that kind of rhythm far more compelling than just permanent minions, and Julian's ring really alleviates that problem quite a bit, especially if you mix it with simulacrum and a good amount of CDR.

People just seem to want something they can run on lazy mode, without having to develop any sort of balance, but something as powerful as those mages made permanent would be stupidly overpowered, which could result on a big nerf just for that convenience, especially for the singularity rune. I personally find the traditional pet builds extremely boring. It's why I never really got into the WD, but that's just my opinion.
07/27/2017 11:16 PMPosted by Mercury
07/27/2017 08:34 AMPosted by Rashiel
The duration issue is still a problem since it leaves very small windows of casting anything else.


Mages require one cast every 3 seconds to keep 10 up 100% of the time. In practice, you don't need all 10 up all the time as there is usually time spent moving between groups of enemies. In practice, you can rapidly cast it three times in a row every 9 seconds or so. One action, every 9 seconds. (Call the Hague, right?)

Command Skeleton needs one cast every 10 seconds or so, even less if you are moving forward the whole time. Curses require about the same cast rate. Revive needs even less to keep at capacity. Golem is situational and on a cool down. AotD is also on a cool down. One or two casts of your generator per cycle is enough to keep up your essence for all the non-singularity mage runes.

What else exactly is taking up so much of your time? What else could you possible need to be casting constantly that you can't do in between all that?

With 2 APS, mages are only taking up 1/6th of your possible actions. You aren't casting any significant direct damage spells, so it's not like your DPS suffers from a 16% reduction in casting.

IDK, but I am thinking you haven't really thought this through. The problem you are describing is NOT EVEN POSSIBLE.

07/27/2017 08:05 PMPosted by jtcdgroup
Its literally a click fest with non-permanent mages. I'd like to play a Diablo game not whack a mole, thank you.


Okay dork, it is *not* "literally a click fest". The last time I played Necro, there were zero festivals, soirees, conventions, ceremonies or even casual get-togethers. Not even a potlatch. There is no way the word literal could apply to that phrase in this context.

Snark aside, if you are performing actions less than once every 3 seconds, you aren't playing well, no matter the class or build. It's fricken Diablo dude, the entire game is built around clicking/attacking as fast as possible. Take all the AS off your character and tell me that's better. (hint, it isn't)

All of this is even more stupid when you consider that you need to be casting mages more often than their duration requires just for optimal targeting and defense. Permanent mages wouldn't change that at all. i.e. The people complaining about the cast frequency need to L2P.

And here's the really stupid part of the whole "Mages are a-posed too be purmnant cuz d2" "argument": Try replacing summon mage with any other ability in the game.

"How come you have to cast multishot all the time for it to do damage?"

You all sound like morons fixated on one superficial "fact" that's more than a decade past its prime. Mages from D2 are completely irrelevant. Grow the !@#$ up and get over it.


You're wrong in a big time on all accounts. You obviously haven't played the strongest Rathma skeletal mage build.

And you can't compare multishot to skeletal mage.
What an absolute stupid post.

Guess what, they are not permanent anyway.
Since the set was buffed before s11 the developers knew something was off. And then there is this "great" passive that increases uptime with a whopping 25%.
Well i do agree if mages were permanent the build would feel less active. Essentially it would become a boring build for lazy players when it already gives an impactful feeling when casting mages at high essence. So yeah buff the duration but making it permanent is the wrong idea. No one needs a build that doesnt require work to put out high damage.
07/27/2017 08:14 AMPosted by Godzilla
07/27/2017 08:09 AMPosted by Alderi
I just want to point out that if you need that many "ifs", then maybe there's a problem.

There is a problem, but it has nothing to do with Mages not being permanent.

The "ifs" are the things that actually need fixing with the Necro pet build; the way Mages are kept up is fine the way it is, though. Mages being permanent shouldn't happen.


No, no.
The problem is not with the existence of burning hoops you have to jump through to get the skill to work -- but with all the position of the burning hoops you have to leap through to use the skill with the limited duration.

If you just adjust their position, just right, the skill will become enjoyable, in a couple of years, when testing have shown the optimal position for all the hoops you have to leap through to have an enjoyable experience.

Yes, yes..! Brilliant..!
Like a gun in a First Person Shooter that requires you to remove the Safety every 10 seconds, the problem lies not with the design of the weapon that actually has a mechanic that forces you to take an action in order to use the weapon, several times during a fight, but with your other gear.

Like. If said gun had a special attachment that allowed you to switch the weapon off Safe mode faster, and gave a little BEEP whenever the weapon returned to Safe mode, life would be better!

The apologistic approach is just silly.
If a mechanic makes no sense, is annoying, and requires you to jump through hoops -- without becoming better if you do succeed in jumping through hoops, and without requiring the jumping through hoops in the first place...
Perhaps the default mode shouldn't require you to jump through hoops?!

---

Here are several ways to keep the "limited" philosophy, without the skill being annoying:
-Skeletons requiring resources to cast their spells.

-Skeletons each requiring resources to live, draining a resource every second for each of them alive.

-Their power being based on a resource, being ineffective without it.

-Skeletons requiring a command to cast their spells
07/27/2017 07:41 AMPosted by Godzilla
The synergies and attention required to keep 10 full power Singularity Mages up at once is what justifies how strong they are. With the Evol ring and the right passives/gear having to replace them really isn't an issue.

If Blizzard just made Devour auto-cast without a goofy numlock trick; changed the Rathma 2 piece to something useful; made the 4 and 6 pieces permanent if you have active pets; made the Singularity AI better, then the Necro pet spec would be perfect.


It looks to me like the only thing that is needed is the density to be more consistent throughout rifts and grs. That is about the only time I have noticed that it is incredibly painful trying to keep up mages with pathetic density.
- Curse the enemy to prevent death, increase the damage of your summons.
- Command meats to attack the enemy to get damage increase.
- Start casting Mages to start dealing damage.
- Regenerate essence and keep track of your UI (top mage counter and bottom essence bar).
- Keep track of enemies around yourself to curse the new ones.
- Keep casting Mages to be able to keep dealing damage.
- Keep track of the enemy projectiles and avoid them to prevent death since you do not have the toughness to withstand the damage if you want to deal enough damage to clear a high enough rift for the build to be meaningful.
- Watch your idle Mages and "imaginary-facepalm" yourself. Do not actually facepalm. You have to watch the game, your Mage counter at the top of the screen, your essence bar at the bottom of the screen and you need all 4 eyes of yours to do all these at the same time.

As you can see it is very easy and not tedious at all. You can even use your other set of hands to eat and drink while you are doing those few things above. I can understand that if you are human gameplay can be tedious but who cares about those pathetic beings anyway!

I do have a question though. Rathma is a specific set designed for Summoners. However, I wonder why Army of the Death is not used. Clearly there isn't a design flaw here. It must be something else. What is it?

- To be able to Master a Set Dungeon?
That makes sense. Good design. I salute all the designers.
If the mage became permanent, you can expect that they will reduce the mage number and its overall damage per second. There is no way that they will let 10 permanent long-range singular mage shooting everything like a freaking turret while you just stand there and chuckle.
07/28/2017 09:53 AMPosted by Kilometer
If the mage became permanent, you can expect that they will reduce the mage number and its overall damage per second. There is no way that they will let 10 permanent long-range singular mage shooting everything like a freaking turret while you just stand there and chuckle.


If it was made permanent, then of course singularity would need to be changed. But it would leave more time to cast stuff like Aotd which is pretty nonexistent as of now.

If the duration was made longer, the gameplay wouldn't change much, but it would be easier to have the mage upkeep, giving room for cursing, moving and cc.
Maybe add a legendary that offers an effect such as "Your skeleton warriors have a ~20% chance on hit to increase the duration of your skeleton mages by 1s."

Mages are still a semi-active skill, but the RSI inducing spam fest is effectively gone.

E: Or make it 100% chance on crit.

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