Necromancer: Mages should be permanent(pt2)

Necromancer
07/27/2017 09:12 PMPosted by Fénix
the only good thing of Necro is active skelletons, the Revives, Mages and Golem are so passive like WD pets, and Golem for example is very bad compared with Gargantuan damage and utility.

Are you serious?
Mages are not passive. Well you can let them be passive just like you can with skeletons, but you can also choose a target for them when you summon them.

Gargantuan...
Like the skeleton mages, gargantuan has one viable rune, humongoid. All other runes are just different amounts of damage, all worthless compared to humongoid due to it being an AOE. And you have to use a ring slot to make that damage viable!(While also making the gargantuan look stupid.)
At least the golem has various utilities. Three second freeze that increases the chance to crit. Three second stun that also does extra damage. It can supply corpses, and even group up enemies like a WD's Piranhas spell.
It can also be used as an emergency heal, while still doing damage to enemies.
I don't understand how you can say the golem is "very bad" compared to gargantuan.
07/27/2017 10:26 PMPosted by Cayenne
I never quite understand this argument. Do you run mages on right click, waiting for essence to cast them? And do you suffer from pain playing any other builds in the game that also require you to press something? Or is it the dubious reasons that hurt your hand?

Not trying to be facetious, genuinely curious.


Before the buff to Rathma I also had this problem, even more with Singularity mages, but with normal mages, try to summon and mantain 10 mages all the time and generate essence as crazy really hurt my fingers. Now with only 4 active you have all Rathma buff, but more mages, more targets, more attacks per second (Or at least that's supposed.)

07/27/2017 10:33 PMPosted by Wolfways
Are you serious?
Mages are not passive. Well you can let them be passive just like you can with skeletons, but you can also choose a target for them when you summon them.


I stopped reading when you said that, Mages ARE PASSIVES. You can summon them in front of a Elite and if they want they can attack trash sh*t. But the problem is when you have 10 mages and not all of them are attacking, the Skeletons are fully controlable.

Yep, Golem is full of utilty, for that reason the most used Golem is Flesh golem and just for Corpse regeneration... and the 1 sec corpse glove. Rathma being a set for Minions, Golem just suck when all your damage is done by Skeletons and Mages. And Revive? Rathma with Revives? LOL.

If Mages were REALLY active their AI would not be so bad and it would be mentioned by Blizzard.
The "active" part of Mages is the cast and recast, as Rhykker said, that sucks, but you can't command your Mages as you can do with Warriors.
change the mages to a toggle, add an essence drain (that is higher for singularity). Zero essence - no more mages. cap of 4 or 5 mages, double that with the ring. Change passive around to reduce essence cost instead of duration. Done.
All they need to do is make the mages attack what your s command attacks I notice the mages stand around also it very disheartening.
07/27/2017 10:36 PMPosted by Fénix
I stopped reading when you said that, Mages ARE PASSIVES. You can summon them in front of a Elite and if they want they can attack trash sh*t.
No. When you summon them they attack whatever your pointer is on, until it dies or they vanish.

07/27/2017 10:36 PMPosted by Fénix
But the problem is when you have 10 mages and not all of them are attacking, the Skeletons are fully controlable.
Yes that's annoying, but not a huge deal as you'll summon new ones in a few seconds anyway.
I'm sure Blizz will fix the bug where mages attack randomly if you use command skeletons after getting your mages to attack certain targets.

07/27/2017 10:36 PMPosted by Fénix
Yep, Golem is full of utilty, for that reason the most used Golem is Flesh golem and just for Corpse regeneration... and the 1 sec corpse glove. Rathma being a set for Minions, Golem just suck when all your damage is done by Skeletons and Mages. And Revive? Rathma with Revives? LOL.
Well Rathma isn't really a "pet" set. It's a skeleton set, like how the Zunimassa set is a fetish set. You can use other pets, but the set bonuses are based around fetishes.
I haven't really tried revives.

07/27/2017 10:36 PMPosted by Fénix
If Mages were REALLY active their AI would not be so bad and it would be mentioned by Blizzard.
Not sure what you mean by that. All pet AI in D3 is bad.

07/27/2017 10:36 PMPosted by Fénix
The "active" part of Mages is the cast and recast, as Rhykker said, that sucks, but you can't command your Mages as you can do with Warriors.
Yes you can, by re-summoning them.
A DH can summon temporary sentries, but can't tell them what to attack.
A wizard can summon hydra's but can't tell them what to attack.
A WD can summon lots of different pets, but can't tell them what to attack.
A necro can summon skeletons and mages and tell both what to attack. Actually they can also tell the golem what to attack too, depending on the chosen rune.
07/28/2017 12:05 AMPosted by Wolfways
A necro can summon skeletons and mages and tell both what to attack. Actually they can also tell the golem what to attack too, depending on the chosen rune.


Well it seems you paid for another OP Necro and mine came defective...
What it's strange with WD pets if you recast near the enemy they can attack this enemy too, this isn't new, but that don't mean they are active, it's only your perception.

WHy? I thought the same like you are doing now until I pay attention and start to see how you cast your mages selecting a target and he will do whatever he wants. So if it's really active AI then we must have a problem and the AI is very broken.

The weird part is you are the first one that think Mages AI it's active when beta testers and all ppl I have chatted said Mages are passives.

With passives we mean the target select instead of an auto AI doing what it think is best.

"Dear Mage kill the elite, dear Mage kill this enemy now, focus this trash now"

You can't do that.

What is a truly active pet? Command skeletons,
That really is an active pet.

Yes that's annoying, but not a huge deal as you'll summon new ones in a few seconds anyway.
I'm sure Blizz will fix the bug where mages attack randomly if you use command skeletons after getting your mages to attack certain targets.


That don't work for Singularity BIG mages, you need all your esscence for full damage and it's annoying wasting essence for AFK mages.

Mages AI need fix.
I think the only thing that people are getting hung up on is the graphics. It's a skeleton mage therefore it's a "pet".
It's not a pet. It's a spell, just like any other spell that you cast and does damage over time for a few seconds.
It's like arguing that the WD's Acid Cloud has a face so it must be a pet and therefore should be permanent.
07/27/2017 02:24 PMPosted by Needlehawk
Either make them permanent or change Rathma's completely so that the 6-piece bonus has nothing to do with SM's.

Rathma 6th piece bonus should be

all pets gain XXXX damage.

Then add legs that puff Golem, Revive, Skeletons, mage in creative ways, so people can decide which combinations they like.
Wolfways, the demon hunter sentries will fire at the same target the demon hunter is firing at... and they last longer.
Well at this point I don't know what to think at this momment, maybe what Wolfways says it's true... I made a video (sorry for the potato quality) and it seems the mages has just a little "active" momment, and it seems when you target an enemy with your mouse, and then cast the mages, they will focus only this enemy and will turn "passives" (just like other pets) when the objective dies.

In the video you will see I aim my mouse at an enemy grouped with some friend and my mages focus the enemy I "marked" when I cast them, ignoring all thing arround them and only when the target dies, they start to focus the first thing the see. Also, if you cast them in a breakable object, they will break it.

https://youtu.be/jZvZXgAZn5g

The big problem with this, is that only works with the first cast and only if you target an enemy, so, for GRs and Singularity mages that's doesn't matter because you know you don't need to "target" enemies with mages, just cast them and run for your life (Rathma is so squishy).

I would preffer an active part like Zunimassa with Carnevil (your ranged fetish will attack the same target you are attacking) and Marauder DH, your sentries will attack the target you are focusing.

For Blood Mages, Archers and other Mages runes, the "active" part works well because they don't drain all your essence like Singularity one does.

Please, watch the video and tell what do you think...
For now, my apologies Wolfways, maybe you're right. But it would be cool if Blizzard mentions this explicitly. Because in patch notes there's nothing, and no one said Mages had this "active" momments when you cast it. And maybe that's the reason why nobody said this before, because the active moment is just that, a moment, you can't control them, and only works if you aim your mouse well.

So yes... it seems mages have a little "active" moment like Golem has.

07/28/2017 02:13 AMPosted by Wolfways
I think the only thing that people are getting hung up on is the graphics. It's a skeleton mage therefore it's a "pet".
It's not a pet. It's a spell, just like any other spell that you cast and does damage over time for a few seconds.
It's like arguing that the WD's Acid Cloud has a face so it must be a pet and therefore should be permanent.


Yes and no, who said "pets" / "minions" should be permanent? Mages are pets, but
ephemeral, they only rise, do pretty OP damage and rest in peace again. That's why Mages are so OP and other "Pets" in general sucks, because they are intended to be shot lived and make a havoc. As I said before, If they turn mages permanent, they will nerf and change a lot of thing because Necro only has 3 active spells.
Hydra is a pet and it's short life, Mirror Image are "pets" and they only last some seconds, Fetish are pets and they are only permanent with Zunimassa set, and you can have aditional short duration fetish thanks to a belt.
Even Familiar is a pet, at least for me, I don't know if the game actually consider a pet all this skills I mentioned.
Mages are pets becuase they have lif bars, can be hit/draw aggro, and are leashed to you. Acid cloud not so much.

Many people have said make the mages perm (original op for instance).
Blizzard communication on this really needs improvement.
I do think that Skeletal Mages should be permanent.

The original incarnation of Summon Skeleton Mages, the mages were permanent, and at max rank you could have 8 Mages.
Additionally you could have 8 Skeletons, and 1 Golem.

They were permanent, but they were dumb, no real control they just acted like WD pets.

Now in D3 they've made the distinction that the minions are controllable for Necros, allowing you to direct your forces, however Mages dont follow this rule, instead you summon them, and they attack whatever they please on their short CD, making them more WD pets than Necro minions.

Where as I understand that making them temporary allows for them to deal more damage, I feel that this kinda takes away from the core concept of the Necro. Im cool with all Skeletons being squishy, and your Golem being tough as nails. It fits.
But Mages dont fit the style of the Necro.

How would I do it?

Well thanks for asking...

Currently we can have 7 Skeletons and 1 Golem permanently, and as many mages as we can cast in the 8-12 second window(items depending).

I would change Summon Skeleton Mages to be permanent and act like Command Skeletons, but only summons a max of 3 .
They would act like skeletons in all manner, and the Command Skeleton active ability:

"Active: Command your skeletal minions to attack the target"

I don't think the second part; "and increase their damage against it by 50%." should work on the Mages, nor should the rune.

However, the Skeletal Mage spell would act like Command Skeletons, in the sense that it has the passive part to summon them, and the active part to do their abilities. The active abilities would mostly be the same, the base ability stating.
Active: empowers your Skeletal Mages increasing their damage as Physical by X% for Y seconds. - either with a CD or a essence cost.

Gift of Death
Risen mages leave a corpse behind when they die or expire. - Maybe change this to be a mini corpse explosion instead, which reads.
Over loads your Skeleton Mages with energy causing your Mages to explode, dealing X% damage.

Contamination
Mages become contaminated channelling an aura of decay for 100% weapon damage as Poison for its duration.

Skeleton Archer
Changes your Skeleton Mages to Skeleton Archers and changes the damage type to Cold.
when active Skeleton Archers increase your attack speed by 3% for 5 seconds each time they deal damage. Max 10 stacks.

Singularity
Consumes all Skeleton Mages to summon a powerful minion. The minion's damage is increased by 100% for every Skeleton Mage consumed.

Life Support
I have no idea for this one.

Let Circle of Nailuj’s Evol, still double the number of mages, I guess it could also still increase the duration by 2 seconds

And Rathma's 6 stack considering it has a 2500% damage cap would largely remain unchanged. It would read instead.

Each active Skeleton increases the damage of your minions and Army of the Dead by 250% with a total cap of 2500%.

so 10 skeletons (7 regular, 3 mages) would keep the damage somewhat the same.
Oh, forgot to mention that mages can be cc'd also. Nothing says fun like wasting the better part of your army/dps becuase they are to stupid to move out of frozen or they get punted away from knockback and the super short base duration runs out.

Seriously, take the additional time from nuliaj and add that to either the base skill or the duration passive. Nuliaj doesn't need it to be relevant anyways.
07/28/2017 02:13 AMPosted by Wolfways
I think the only thing that people are getting hung up on is the graphics. It's a skeleton mage therefore it's a "pet".
It's not a pet. It's a spell, just like any other spell that you cast and does damage over time for a few seconds.
It's like arguing that the WD's Acid Cloud has a face so it must be a pet and therefore should be permanent.


That's a bad over simplification. You're also comparing apples to oranges. It is more like the WD having to recast zombie dogs 5-10 times every 6-12 seconds just to keep up the Zunimassa 6-piece bonus.

Mages are pets. They have health bars, they take damage, they follow you, they choose their own targets (sometimes...). They're pets, not turrets or some DoT ability, but blizzard thought it would be "fun" to have to constantly "recast the zombie dogs" so to speak.

Everyone is so worried "oh noes, they'll be nerfed if they're permanent!" So what?

I know why Blizzard doesn't want to do it. They'll have to rework and rebalance a bunch of items and give the mages actual command abilities, but they're not the customers paying for the product. It's not their money, it's ours, and we're the reason for why they even have a business at all.

It will all even out in the end, it just means you'll be using a different mechanism for the Rathma set.

The end result will be the same damage-wise. It just means the mages themselves will be less tedious and more in line with people's expectations for what pets should do in a build.
07/28/2017 05:59 AMPosted by Fénix
Well at this point I don't know what to think at this momment, maybe what Wolfways says it's true... I made a video (sorry for the potato quality) and it seems the mages has just a little "active" momment, and it seems when you target an enemy with your mouse, and then cast the mages, they will focus only this enemy and will turn "passives" (just like other pets) when the objective dies.


I think this is one of the reasons their duration is short. When you summon them you control what they attack (initially) so having to resummon them often keeps you targeting what you want.

That said, I wouldn't mind a bit longer duration (like the life support ones have as the default length.)
07/28/2017 05:04 AMPosted by Jazz
Wolfways, the demon hunter sentries will fire at the same target the demon hunter is firing at... and they last longer.

And mages will fire at what you want them to fire at when you summon them.
Also, a DH cannot get 10 sentries up within a few seconds.
once you get the mage ring they are fine until then they are terrible. The Rathma set should have the 2 pc changed to either AoTD and LoTD cdr with minions or an aura which summons minions like 5 . No one uses AoTD total waste of space.
07/28/2017 05:59 AMPosted by Fénix
For now, my apologies Wolfways, maybe you're right. But it would be cool if Blizzard mentions this explicitly. Because in patch notes there's nothing, and no one said Mages had this "active" momments when you cast it.
Thank you for taking the time to test it :)
And yes Blizz should have mentioned it somewhere, unless they have and I missed it. I only found out by reading about it on the forums.

07/28/2017 05:59 AMPosted by Fénix
Yes and no, who said "pets" / "minions" should be permanent? Mages are pets, but
ephemeral, they only rise, do pretty OP damage and rest in peace again. That's why Mages are so OP and other "Pets" in general sucks, because they are intended to be shot lived and make a havoc. As I said before, If they turn mages permanent, they will nerf and change a lot of thing because Necro only has 3 active spells.
Hydra is a pet and it's short life, Mirror Image are "pets" and they only last some seconds, Fetish are pets and they are only permanent with Zunimassa set, and you can have aditional short duration fetish thanks to a belt.
Even Familiar is a pet, at least for me, I don't know if the game actually consider a pet all this skills I mentioned.
Well there a a lot of people saying mages should be permanent or at least have a longer uptime.
The thing that I don't understand is why people are complaining about having to do what just about every build does, spam a damage spell.
Honestly I couldn't care if Blizz let players have more control over the mages. I just don't see a point when I already have that ability by summoning new mages. At least the necro is casting a high damage spell (mages) that increase the damage of the pets (due to set bonus), unlike the melee Zunimassa WD who has to spam a practically 0 damage spell (Haunt or "unsupported" firebats) to increase the damage of the pets (due to set bonus).
Also, as long as at least four mages exist the other pets are doing more damage, whereas the Zuni WD has to try to hit all mobs with one of the above spells for just that mob to take increased damage.
Imo Zunimassa is much harder to play than Rathma.
07/27/2017 10:26 PMPosted by Cayenne
I never quite understand this argument. Do you run mages on right click, waiting for essence to cast them? And do you suffer from pain playing any other builds in the game that also require you to press something? Or is it the dubious reasons that hurt your hand?

Natalya's with Strafe and a generator was, for example,a build I could never play without pain for more than 10 minutes. Also a Barbarian and a Crusader builds I didn't care to remember, less bad but still unhealthy. The dubious reason makes the decision not to play this even easier. For instance I can willingly spam Impale; my character shoots knives, I need to aim, action needed, ok, I get it. But these pets, not so much. It could be another way, as satisfactory and more painless.

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