Necromancer: Mages should be permanent(pt2)

Necromancer
07/28/2017 12:21 PMPosted by Wolfways
07/28/2017 05:59 AMPosted by Fénix
For now, my apologies Wolfways, maybe you're right. But it would be cool if Blizzard mentions this explicitly. Because in patch notes there's nothing, and no one said Mages had this "active" momments when you cast it.
Thank you for taking the time to test it :)
And yes Blizz should have mentioned it somewhere, unless they have and I missed it. I only found out by reading about it on the forums.

07/28/2017 05:59 AMPosted by Fénix
Yes and no, who said "pets" / "minions" should be permanent? Mages are pets, but
ephemeral, they only rise, do pretty OP damage and rest in peace again. That's why Mages are so OP and other "Pets" in general sucks, because they are intended to be shot lived and make a havoc. As I said before, If they turn mages permanent, they will nerf and change a lot of thing because Necro only has 3 active spells.
Hydra is a pet and it's short life, Mirror Image are "pets" and they only last some seconds, Fetish are pets and they are only permanent with Zunimassa set, and you can have aditional short duration fetish thanks to a belt.
Even Familiar is a pet, at least for me, I don't know if the game actually consider a pet all this skills I mentioned.
Well there a a lot of people saying mages should be permanent or at least have a longer uptime.
The thing that I don't understand is why people are complaining about having to do what just about every build does, spam a damage spell.
Honestly I couldn't care if Blizz let players have more control over the mages. I just don't see a point when I already have that ability by summoning new mages. At least the necro is casting a high damage spell (mages) that increase the damage of the pets (due to set bonus), unlike the melee Zunimassa WD who has to spam a practically 0 damage spell (Haunt or "unsupported" firebats) to increase the damage of the pets (due to set bonus).
Also, as long as at least four mages exist the other pets are doing more damage, whereas the Zuni WD has to try to hit all mobs with one of the above spells for just that mob to take increased damage.
Imo Zunimassa is much harder to play than Rathma.


Zunimassa is harder than Rathma...? Mix it with 2 pieces from Arachyr using the ring of royal grandeur. Put hex on your bar for survival and cast it every 15 seconds. Use the 24 yard acid cloud morph to mark mobs every 8 seconds. Don't stand in fire. No spam necessary.
07/28/2017 12:21 PMPosted by Wolfways
07/28/2017 05:59 AMPosted by Fénix
For now, my apologies Wolfways, maybe you're right. But it would be cool if Blizzard mentions this explicitly. Because in patch notes there's nothing, and no one said Mages had this "active" momments when you cast it.
Thank you for taking the time to test it :)
And yes Blizz should have mentioned it somewhere, unless they have and I missed it. I only found out by reading about it on the forums.

07/28/2017 05:59 AMPosted by Fénix
Yes and no, who said "pets" / "minions" should be permanent? Mages are pets, but
ephemeral, they only rise, do pretty OP damage and rest in peace again. That's why Mages are so OP and other "Pets" in general sucks, because they are intended to be shot lived and make a havoc. As I said before, If they turn mages permanent, they will nerf and change a lot of thing because Necro only has 3 active spells.
Hydra is a pet and it's short life, Mirror Image are "pets" and they only last some seconds, Fetish are pets and they are only permanent with Zunimassa set, and you can have aditional short duration fetish thanks to a belt.
Even Familiar is a pet, at least for me, I don't know if the game actually consider a pet all this skills I mentioned.
Well there a a lot of people saying mages should be permanent or at least have a longer uptime.
The thing that I don't understand is why people are complaining about having to do what just about every build does, spam a damage spell.
Honestly I couldn't care if Blizz let players have more control over the mages. I just don't see a point when I already have that ability by summoning new mages. At least the necro is casting a high damage spell (mages) that increase the damage of the pets (due to set bonus), unlike the melee Zunimassa WD who has to spam a practically 0 damage spell (Haunt or "unsupported" firebats) to increase the damage of the pets (due to set bonus).
Also, as long as at least four mages exist the other pets are doing more damage, whereas the Zuni WD has to try to hit all mobs with one of the above spells for just that mob to take increased damage.
Imo Zunimassa is much harder to play than Rathma.


The difference is your holding down the button to spam a debuff (supporting your army like a summoner should) the byproduct of which automatically maintains your army, which don't all dissappear before the next pack and don't require a minimum number to get the full bonus of the set.

Also the majority of the army is melee which gives more breathing room for the summoner to focus and dictate the flow of battle.

With rathma, you aren't JUST summoning mages, your also devouring eery corpse in sight, and cursing the entire screen while weaving in your generator in there somewhere to maintain all the damage multipliers that make mages so strong.

It's a hell of alot more than other summoners need to do.
07/28/2017 01:21 PMPosted by ssgfrogg
Zunimassa is harder than Rathma...? Mix it with 2 pieces from Arachyr using the ring of royal grandeur. Put hex on your bar for survival and cast it every 15 seconds. Use the 24 yard acid cloud morph to mark mobs every 8 seconds. Don't stand in fire. No spam necessary.
And lose a ton of damage...
07/28/2017 01:33 PMPosted by Pyobe
The difference is your holding down the button to spam a debuff (supporting your army like a summoner should) the byproduct of which automatically maintains your army, which don't all dissappear before the next pack and don't require a minimum number to get the full bonus of the set.
If you have no mages when you run into a new pack of mobs then it takes a few seconds to cast them, and when my WD runs into a new pack I have to start spamming Haunt. The WD pets will spend some time in melee doing practically no damage until the mob they are fighting gets hit by a spender, and the way fetishes spread out to fight multiple mobs (and with no way to coordinate their attacks, like you can with Command Skeletons) it can take a few seconds to hit everything with the spender.

07/28/2017 01:33 PMPosted by Pyobe
With rathma, you aren't JUST summoning mages, your also devouring eery corpse in sight, and cursing the entire screen while weaving in your generator in there somewhere to maintain all the damage multipliers that make mages so strong.
Why are you devouring corpses? My only way to generate essence is with Bone Spikes and I have no trouble keeping mages up while also casting Decrepify, Bone Armour, and Command Skeletons.
It's harder to generate essence at lower levels (pre-70grift) because there are less mobs in groups, but in higher levels it gets easier.
Admittedly I don't know much about balance, but couldn't they leave singularity as is. But change the rest of the skeleton mages to be permanent. So the singularity rune would become something along the lines of "consumes all of your essence to raise a powerful but temporary skeleton mage" rather than a permanent one like the others would become.
It's been one month since release.

There have been a few times I've tried to pick up Rathma again, but even the laziest build requires you to keep pressing mages at every encounter. Even with 2 mages out each time, you need 5 presses (or hold down for 5 secs on the PS4). With Simulacrum, now you need to manage another cooldown which is another headache.

It's just very clunky and tiresome. Remember on the PS4 your right thumb is responsible for 4 buttons, while on PC you get away with using a finger for each skill. Mages, skeletons, generators, blood rush, cooldown skills with just the right hand... unplayable for long periods when you have to shuffle between them fast for EACH monster encounter.
Should really compile the suggested changes into original post. It makes it easier to know what you're responding to.
Honestly, I don't think the problem is mages not being permanent at all.
I think the problem is the duration is criminally short. Nailuj is practically REQUIRED in order to reliably reach 4 mages since otherwise they seem to despawn almost as fast as you can cast them.
08/03/2017 07:01 PMPosted by BirdofPrey
Honestly, I don't think the problem is mages not being permanent at all.
I think the problem is the duration is criminally short. Nailuj is practically REQUIRED in order to reliably reach 4 mages since otherwise they seem to despawn almost as fast as you can cast them.

I disagree with this. Sure it's a lot easier with Julian's ring, but it's really not difficult to keep up 4 mages without it. There are plenty of ways to generate the essence needed to do so.

Infact there's so many ways that (with the ring) people are speed farming with 10 full or near full essence singularity mages and no generator.

If you're running just the set and a mix of yellows and trying to maintain 4 singularity mages you might have a bit of trouble. Almost everything has 'required' items to play well though.
Pretty sure at some point skeletal mages will be permanent, with effects from gear items.. :O)
07/29/2017 07:08 AMPosted by Skub
couldn't they leave singularity as is. But change the rest of the skeleton mages to be permanent.

This is same, as not doing any changes, as nobody playing non-singularity mages over GR60, I think.
08/04/2017 12:59 AMPosted by m3ta1he4d
Pretty sure at some point skeletal mages will be permanent, with effects from gear items.. :O)
this is the way.
I still say, have the timer on existing mages reset, and tied to an ability like command skeletons, Command golem, Land of the dead or Army of the dead.. Making them permanent would never happen and shouldn't.

This effect should be on an item, like bracers or belt.
I agree with making them permanent (yes, it's annoying to have to cast them a lot), but I agree only if Singularity rune is changed, because the way it is, I can just cast LotD, Simulacrum Reservoir and faceroll a 100 with no augments, and no, I'm not joking.

Singularity is so fricking powerful compared to the other runes that I can't make a fun build using Health Support even though my Trag'oul set has 17.5k Int and my Rathma has only 11k Int.
I tried on a 90 using Health Support with my Trag'oul set 2 days ago with 1k+ paragon, took centuries to kill white mobs.
Funny because I've downed the same 90 using a lot of non-ancient Rathma gear and finished it with 4 minutes to spare in the third day of season under 600 paragon. And now I'm trying 97s duo with my monk friend without no augments (my main set is trag'oul).
Such a hot topic. I've played a lot of all 3 sets (Pestilence is so bad it doesn't count) and I really don't see the need for permanent mages. I think a small buff to their timer is more than adequate. Say base of 12 seconds instead of 6.

That might not seem like much but in Diablo time 6 seconds is an eternity. That's a long time where you aren't mashing a button. It's just QoL.

I use Rathma GR60-75 for speed runs with no generator and have zero issues keeping mages up. I really don't even think the build is too button mashing heavy. Just num-lock devour and you're rolling.

Yea it's button heavy went compared to Trag'ouls but that build is incredibly stagnant. Inarius is more balanced, and spending on your style, somewhere in the middle.

If we go permanent mages you know they are going to be nerfed. The set already can't compete with Tragouls for pushing, why beg to make it worse?

Tldr - I use Rathma 75 and below, Inarius GR 76-85 and Trag'ouls 86+...tons of experience with all the sets. Inarius needs work more than mages need adjusting. A simple bump in duration is all that's needed.
I am using singularity mages just hit 71 working on 72. You have to have devour though and reapers wraps and life from death.

The num lock trick or devour aura keeps you capped up. I use a generator just to create pauses in the spam so I can cap out and hit it again at my own pace.

I feel maybe there should be another item that makes them last longer, but forces a different change in the build. Gloves or something. That way its less spammy, but you have to break the bread and butter by using Ring of Royal Grandeur.
I don't actually think there is much of an issue. I think a slight buff to their duration would be ok.

Devour you have to numlock though or it's pretty annoying. It almost feels like Devour should be a passive that hits 60 yards with one of the better runes hooked to it.

Once you have that in place, I don't even think the build is that spammy. Devour firing on it's own, you hold down your generator and summon mages when your bulb gets full. Periodically you drop a curse and command and that's it.
At this point, I'd settle for the damn Mages actually not being AFK 50% of the time. The fact that they aren't permanent, and do this is simply adding insult to injury. It's always fantastic when the Rift Guardian appears, you have TEN Mages, and not one of them attacks, forcing you to resummon every single one of them.
I did not get what i payed for with the Necromancer pack.

Mages need a fix and there are many sugestions, pick one but recasteing mages as the only spell you have time for is not acceptable. That is simply not why we bougth this expantion!

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