SotC over Reilena in Cube?

Necromancer
There is a lot of debate now about Reilena vs Trag'Ouls Corroded Fang in the cube for Rathma Pet builds using Simulacrum, at least two threads are discussing this or something similar right now.

My question is: Why Reilena (160% Base damage Modifier assuming perfect Essence) or Trags (200% Base Damage Modifier) over Scythe of the Cycle? We assume you're using Jesseth Set as your Weapon/Offhand, so really you can only get 140% Damage Modifier with Reilena for a total of 280% with Reservoir up.

SotC gets 300% Damage boost to your Mages ONLY (but really that's the biggest part of your damage). Here are the Pros and Cons:

SotC Pros:
- Higher Constant Damage Modifier
- Bone Armor on your Bar over Simulacrum = Combined higher Defense, less 1 shotting
- Easier to maintain and always available max damage modifier vs others which require an active cast to achieve that falls off quickly either once the curse wears off or once the cooldowns are cast, leaving you in the lurch until you can re-cast or wait for CDs.
- Bone Armor Dislocation procs Krysbin Instantly and on a large pack of enemies. It also procs APDs if you wear those.

SotC Cons:
- Bone Armor is Ugly (lol)
- Having to Cast Bone Armor costs precious Essence (though so do curses) while Simulacrum does not
- If you miss a re-cast of Bone Armor you're in the Lurch
- Reilena gives Essence Boost with Bone Spikes, this is lost to SotC
Edit More Cons:
- Must be in range to cast bone Armor, reduces Zei's bonus (Edit edit: Bone Armor Range is 30 yards, this is only a minor issue).
- All non-Mage Skills are NOT Buffed by SotC.
- Bone Armor Upkeep can be difficult

Why aren't we using SotC over Reilena AND Trag'Ouls in the cube?
Many builds don't even use bone armor. One of the reasons is that it requires you to be closer than you really want to be (this should be a con in your list). And with the duration getting depleted you have to be in range for it quite often to keep it up. Many builds rather stay far away and are using Zei's.
07/28/2017 11:48 AMPosted by DuckOfDeath
Many builds don't even use bone armor. One of the reasons is that it requires you to be closer than you really want to be (this should be a con in your list). And with the duration getting depleted you have to be in range for it quite often to keep it up. Many builds rather stay far away and are using Zei's.
excellent point with the casting of Bone armor, but it does have a fairly long range, about 20 meters at least, so you're not dipping THAT far into it. good point never the less.

You only really need to re-cast it about once ever 15-20 seconds. That's far less frequent than using a curse for Trag Fang
07/28/2017 11:36 AMPosted by Oscar
Reilena gives Essence Boost with Bone Spikes, this is lost to SotC


That's my reason.

When i swapped out for SotC i was essence starved. I'm sure there's builds where SotC will work just as good or better, but i couldn't make it work. Reilena essence regen makes pumping out max essences mages much easier.
07/28/2017 11:53 AMPosted by Oscar
07/28/2017 11:48 AMPosted by DuckOfDeath
Many builds don't even use bone armor. One of the reasons is that it requires you to be closer than you really want to be (this should be a con in your list). And with the duration getting depleted you have to be in range for it quite often to keep it up. Many builds rather stay far away and are using Zei's.
excellent point with the casting of Bone armor, but it does have a fairly long range, about 20 meters at least, so you're not dipping THAT far into it. good point never the less.

You only really need to re-cast it about once ever 15-20 seconds. That's far less frequent than using a curse for Trag Fang


That means running in and out every 15-20s so that you are back at max range for Zei's. And that moving around means losing DPS especially when many of these builds use EW.
I would hardly call that a big sacrifice for +160% Damage (300%-140% Reilena without Simulacrum up), or even the 20% Damage (300-280 Reilena with Sim Reservoir) or the +100 Damage (300-200 Trag Fang proc)
As an Aside, as you're actually looking for mobs to kill, you WILL encounter them before your pets do. This is a fact of playing the game. Chances are you'll encounter them, then STUN Them with Dislocation and all your goons will jump the mobs. Your Mages and Skeletons don't lead you, you lead them.
07/28/2017 12:00 PMPosted by Apathy
That's my reason.

When i swapped out for SotC i was essence starved. I'm sure there's builds where SotC will work just as good or better, but i couldn't make it work. Reilena essence regen makes pumping out max essences mages much easier.
yes this is also a concern of mine, but I shaved off 1.5 minutes from my Gr 70 runs just by swapping to Cycle over Reilena. Times went from 5.5 Minutes to closer to 4.0 Minutes. It "Feels" like I have Simulacrum Reservoir up ALL the time
Why not both? I use SoTC with Reilena cubed. Granted, I started doing this out of necessity when I couldn't get a decent Jesseth's weapon and an ancient SoTC and lidless both dropped. The lidless can have 20% physical and also +essence which helps fuel Reilena further. It actually works quite well.

The only major change to a typical jesseth build is to drop command skels in favor of bone armor. While you lose a little damage (360% instead of 400%), you also gain some toughness which is extremely lacking.
07/28/2017 12:23 PMPosted by Oscar
As an Aside, as you're actually looking for mobs to kill, you WILL encounter them before your pets do. This is a fact of playing the game. Chances are you'll encounter them, then STUN Them with Dislocation and all your goons will jump the mobs. Your Mages and Skeletons don't lead you, you lead them.


Not really. Command lets your pets jump way ahead of you. And spamming it on nothing costs nothing. So as you move spam it toward the edge of the screen. When your skeles jump ahead drop your mages and now you have 2 lines of minions between you and the mobs and you are still at max range. I have heard my necro say she is a frayed not more times than I can count.
07/28/2017 12:34 PMPosted by ThePiGuy
Why not both? I use SoTC with Reilena cubed. Granted, I started doing this out of necessity when I couldn't get a decent Jesseth's weapon and an ancient SoTC and lidless both dropped. The lidless can have 20% physical and also +essence which helps fuel Reilena further. It actually works quite well.

The only major change to a typical jesseth build is to drop command skels in favor of bone armor. While you lose a little damage (360% instead of 400%), you also gain some toughness which is extremely lacking.
If you use both you give up Jesseth, which is the best bonus and the one you cannot give up if you have it or can get it. I wish you could have all 3 but it's just not possible
07/28/2017 12:37 PMPosted by DuckOfDeath
07/28/2017 12:23 PMPosted by Oscar
As an Aside, as you're actually looking for mobs to kill, you WILL encounter them before your pets do. This is a fact of playing the game. Chances are you'll encounter them, then STUN Them with Dislocation and all your goons will jump the mobs. Your Mages and Skeletons don't lead you, you lead them.


Not really. Command lets your pets jump way ahead of you. And spamming it on nothing costs nothing. So as you move spam it toward the edge of the screen. When your skeles jump ahead drop your mages and now you have 2 lines of minions between you and the mobs and you are still at max range. I have heard my necro say she is a frayed not more times than I can count.
I guarantee you that you'll have mobs on top of you or near you well within range of Bone armor. You aren't going to keep mobs a full screen length away 100% of the time. There are plenty of opportunities to cast Bone Armor. If you are so good you can play the entire game off-screen, then kudos to you, but Bone Armor actually has a really decent range of something like 30 yards.

http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Bone_Armor_(Diablo_III)

THIRTY YARDS. If you never have enemies around you at 30 yards, you must be wearing Enemy repellent

edit: I just measured on screen - 30 yards IS the relative upper bound of my screen AND the lower bound as well, with only 20 yards away from the very edge of the left and right bounds. Basically if I can SEE it, I'm probably hitting it with Bone Armor.
More than likely you are using Bone Armor on CD to proc the stun and keep the stacks refreshed. That means you are not using it only when a mob gets close to you to stun it. Yes mobs get close. But having or not having Bone Armor to stun them is not an issue as you are not likely to have it available at the time. Command stops anything that gets close so I can get back to range.

The radius is good but for you to catch most of the mobs they have to be near you. I doubt you are casting Bone Armor to catch just a couple mobs at the edge of the screen. You are going to move up and catch as many as you can to stun them. You are definitely not using it at max range.
07/28/2017 01:29 PMPosted by DuckOfDeath
But having or not having Bone Armor to stun them is not an issue as you are not likely to have it available at the time. Command stops anything that gets close so I can get back to range.
big assumption that is actually quite wrong. I refresh it when it NEEDS to be refreshed because that maximizes the availability that I have it as an Oh Sht button.

Seriously, at this point, you sound like you're arguing just to argue you're even making up hypothetical situations just to argue. Enough dude. if you cannot support why SotC is worse than Reilena with hard math or REAL situations, then we don't have a conversation to have in this thread.
07/28/2017 01:34 PMPosted by Oscar
07/28/2017 01:29 PMPosted by DuckOfDeath
But having or not having Bone Armor to stun them is not an issue as you are not likely to have it available at the time. Command stops anything that gets close so I can get back to range.
big assumption that is actually quite wrong. I refresh it when it NEEDS to be refreshed because that maximizes the availability that I have it as an Oh Sht button.

Seriously, at this point, you sound like you're arguing just to argue you're even making up hypothetical situations just to argue. Enough dude. if you cannot support why SotC is worse than Reilena with hard math or REAL situations, then we don't have a conversation to have in this thread.


Hard math or real situations? You yourself said you have to cast it every 15-20s. That is practically on CD. So your emergency window is 5-10s? Wow I am totally making assumptions about it being on CD over half the time.
Cooldown is 10 seconds, but I'm usually encountering Packs of mobs where I will either Pop them with Dislocation to get my Krysbin Proc, or hold on to it for use when it's needed if they're difficult to kill mobs. that happens usually within 10 additional seconds. That's kind of an eternity in this game and nothing about this is exactly unreasonable. And now you're resorting to eye rolling comments about assumptions.

I have no answer to my question yet and you've only served to eternally bump this thread, so for that, thanks.
just going to point out: Both of your necros have Bone Armor on your builds one of them (the better geared one) is using SotC in the cube. Glad we could agree on this.
07/28/2017 02:12 PMPosted by Oscar
just going to point out: Both of your necros have Bone Armor on your builds one of them (the better geared one) is using SotC in the cube. Glad we could agree on this.


The non-season better geared Necro is what I tried out prior to season. It had it's limitations. My season Necro is still newish and trying to get the gear I need for my new build. Bone armor is in there because I do not have the DPS to kill things quickly and thus need more survivability. However the build that I am going for gives up the survivability to be able to burst things down quickly as shown in the build I posted in the other thread. This bone armor build I am using is not a progression build. It is just what I have to work with the drops I have gotten.
I'm sorry Duck I'm just having a really hard time taking you seriously right now. Between your total necromancer elite kills (even on your "better" geared NS toon, less than 400?), your gear, your gem choices, and you skill choices, I just can't believe you have the experience enough to tell me why Scythe of the Cycle is an inferior choice to Reilena or Trag'oul's Corrupted Fang unless you're going to actually present to me a mathematical model to prove it, I'm sticking with my current theory.
I'm surprised nobody has picked up on the one of the main differences aside from using Bone Armor or not.

Shadowhook damage applies to ALL attacks vs SotC which only applies to mages. With that said, plenty of your damage comes from skellies and they do not benefit from SotC. I often swap between the two but that is something everyone should pay attention to.

If you're running an elite nuke build with mages + sims + lotd then SotC will shine here. If you want consistent damage to kill trash then Shadowhook will shine here because it's a combination of damage from your skellies, mages, and primary skill.

Which is truly better? The difference is almost negligible. It boils down to the user. Some users die more often than others so they take Bone Armor. Other players are pro at dodging incoming attacks so they don't need Bone Armor.

This might be something overlooked but using Shadowhook requires Overwhelming Essence passive. Using Cycle requires Bone Armor. Both of which is very important to consider in gr progression. On one hand (with Cycle), you have the option of taking a defensive passive, but gain an offensive skill (minus Bone Armor + Overwhelming Essence). On the other hand (with Shadowhook), you're forced to take an offensive passive (Overwhelming Essence) but a skill takes the place of a defensive passive (Bone Armor).

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