SotC over Reilena in Cube?

Necromancer
07/28/2017 03:16 PMPosted by Fullbringer
I'm surprised nobody has picked up on the one of the main differences aside from using Bone Armor or not.

Shadowhook damage applies to ALL attacks vs SotC which only applies to mages. With that said, plenty of your damage comes from skellies and they do not benefit from SotC. I often swap between the two but that is something everyone should pay attention to.

If you're running an elite nuke build with mages + sims + lotd then SotC will shine here. If you want consistent damage to kill trash then Shadowhook will shine here because it's a combination of damage from your skellies, mages, and primary skill.

Which is truly better? The difference is almost negligible. It boils down to the user. Some users die more often than others so they take Bone Armor. Other players are pro at dodging incoming attacks so they don't need Bone Armor.

This might be something overlooked but using Shadowhook requires Overwhelming Essence passive. Using Cycle requires Bone Armor. Both of which is very important to consider in gr progression. On one hand (with Cycle), you have the option of taking a defensive passive, but gain an offensive skill (minus Bone Armor + Overwhelming Essence). On the other hand (with Shadowhook), you're forced to take an offensive passive (Overwhelming Essence) but a skill takes the place of a defensive passive (Bone Armor).

Thank God a Logical response. Good argument and I do agree with you, the big difference is also that all skills are buffed by Reilena, but at the same time, if we were to compare the total amount of damage done in a parse, I would not expect Command Skeletons to be remotely as high as Mages. Boosting Mages additionally MAY just be a "shift" in the total distribution of damage, but I will do test clears with both builds tonight and report back. I'll try to do 10 Grifts at 70 for both Reilena and SotC
07/28/2017 03:20 PMPosted by Oscar
07/28/2017 03:16 PMPosted by Fullbringer
I'm surprised nobody has picked up on the one of the main differences aside from using Bone Armor or not.

Shadowhook damage applies to ALL attacks vs SotC which only applies to mages. With that said, plenty of your damage comes from skellies and they do not benefit from SotC. I often swap between the two but that is something everyone should pay attention to.

If you're running an elite nuke build with mages + sims + lotd then SotC will shine here. If you want consistent damage to kill trash then Shadowhook will shine here because it's a combination of damage from your skellies, mages, and primary skill.

Which is truly better? The difference is almost negligible. It boils down to the user. Some users die more often than others so they take Bone Armor. Other players are pro at dodging incoming attacks so they don't need Bone Armor.

This might be something overlooked but using Shadowhook requires Overwhelming Essence passive. Using Cycle requires Bone Armor. Both of which is very important to consider in gr progression. On one hand (with Cycle), you have the option of taking a defensive passive, but gain an offensive skill (minus Bone Armor + Overwhelming Essence). On the other hand (with Shadowhook), you're forced to take an offensive passive (Overwhelming Essence) but a skill takes the place of a defensive passive (Bone Armor).

Thank God a Logical response. Good argument and I do agree with you, the big difference is also that all skills are buffed by Reilena, but at the same time, if we were to compare the total amount of damage done in a parse, I would not expect Command Skeletons to be remotely as high as Mages. Boosting Mages additionally MAY just be a "shift" in the total distribution of damage, but I will do test clears with both builds tonight and report back. I'll try to do 10 Grifts at 70 for both Reilena and SotC


No prob. I have tested both iterations in solo gr80 more times I can count.
07/28/2017 03:51 PMPosted by Fullbringer
No prob. I have tested both iterations in solo gr80 more times I can count.
So your conclusion is that it's a wash?

If that's the case, then we have to decide between whether or not we want the Defense of Bone Armor or the Regen of Reilena. That is a highly personal case that has to be made then
07/28/2017 03:55 PMPosted by Oscar
07/28/2017 03:51 PMPosted by Fullbringer
No prob. I have tested both iterations in solo gr80 more times I can count.
So your conclusion is that it's a wash?

If that's the case, then we have to decide between whether or not we want the Defense of Bone Armor or the Regen of Reilena. That is a highly personal case that has to be made then


Personally, I like Cycle because that allows me to use a defensive passive. With Bone Armor you can opt to wearing Kalan + Evol + CoE or even SoJ. Without Bone Armor, you can opt to wearing Endless walk but you are forced to wear 1 ring - Evol. I tried both versions many times over. I think it's really about your intent. You gain something but lose something in both builds.

But, I can argue one thing that someone pointed out. You should not be essence starved. If you are, then that could only mean that you are skipping trash that would fuel essence. Players think that skipping trash is the "way" to go with every build because they have been brainwashed by Lance builds. If you watch many vids over gr90 for ANY class, they usually kill trash and try to kill as much as possible for progression experience. THIS is how Rathma should be played especially because your toughness and survivability is crap.
Absolutely how you have to play it. Having mobs creep up behind you is also the fastest way to die. Necromancer sandwich no good!

I'm still using EW Because I just have decent rolls but I could definitely opt to put On Krysbin and CoE in the Cube. Hmm. Might make for some great flexibility in damage. My Kaplan is very mediocre though. Hmm maybe an immunity amulet. I have a Ton of those laying around
07/28/2017 04:37 PMPosted by Oscar
Absolutely how you have to play it. Having mobs creep up behind you is also the fastest way to die. Necromancer sandwich no good!

I'm still using EW Because I just have decent rolls but I could definitely opt to put On Krysbin and CoE in the Cube. Hmm. Might make for some great flexibility in damage. My Kaplan is very mediocre though. Hmm maybe an immunity amulet. I have a Ton of those laying around


If you can get a Hellfire Amulet with Final Service then you can take a defensive passive such as Draw Life. The options are there but Kalan is less complicated and gives you the extra toughness you need. That's what I recommend if you go with the Bone Armor route. Kalan or Hellfire Final Service OR Hellfire Draw Life and just change the passive. I can't stress how important Final Service is in high GR.

Let's do just a little math here. In a 10 min gr80, Final Service can save your life 10 times. Thus, saving you roughly 3 minutes of gr clear time.

Deaths:
1st death = 0 secs penalty
2nd = 5 secs
3rd = 10 secs
4th = 15 secs
5th = 20 secs
6th = 25 secs
7th = 30 secs
8th = 30 secs
9th = 30 secs
10th = 30 secs

Hopefully, I did my math right.
07/28/2017 04:43 PMPosted by Fullbringer
If you can get a Hellfire Amulet with Final Service then you can take a defensive passive such as Draw Life. The options are there but Kalan is less complicated and gives you the extra toughness you need. That's what I recommend if you go with the Bone Armor route. Kalan or Hellfire Final Service OR Hellfire Draw Life and just change the passive. I can't stress how important Final Service is in high GR.
I actually have an Extended Servitude HFA on my Non Seasons, but I've been working seasons only. Hmm. I will get crafting I have 500 souls that need to get spent.
07/28/2017 02:55 PMPosted by Oscar
I'm sorry Duck I'm just having a really hard time taking you seriously right now. Between your total necromancer elite kills (even on your "better" geared NS toon, less than 400?), your gear, your gem choices, and you skill choices, I just can't believe you have the experience enough to tell me why Scythe of the Cycle is an inferior choice to Reilena or Trag'oul's Corrupted Fang unless you're going to actually present to me a mathematical model to prove it, I'm sticking with my current theory.


I have not had much time to play the necro since release. I do have extensive testing with it in the Beta. And everything tells me that Reilena is the better choice for my particular build using the skills I mentioned. And if you want to compare it to what those at the top of the leaderboards are using you would notice that they use Trag set for progression but their second choice for speed farming is Rathma with a Reilena. Are you going to tell me they don't have the experience to know what is good? If I am building a speed farming build to help me grind drops for progression guess what build I will use.
07/28/2017 05:40 PMPosted by DuckOfDeath
07/28/2017 02:55 PMPosted by Oscar
I'm sorry Duck I'm just having a really hard time taking you seriously right now. Between your total necromancer elite kills (even on your "better" geared NS toon, less than 400?), your gear, your gem choices, and you skill choices, I just can't believe you have the experience enough to tell me why Scythe of the Cycle is an inferior choice to Reilena or Trag'oul's Corrupted Fang unless you're going to actually present to me a mathematical model to prove it, I'm sticking with my current theory.


I have not had much time to play the necro since release. I do have extensive testing with it in the Beta. And everything tells me that Reilena is the better choice for my particular build using the skills I mentioned. And if you want to compare it to what those at the top of the leaderboards are using you would notice that they use Trag set for progression but their second choice for speed farming is Rathma with a Reilena. Are you going to tell me they don't have the experience to know what is good? If I am building a speed farming build to help me grind drops for progression guess what build I will use.


I will take this on. Bandwagon players are the players I really don't like. Let's talk about Necromancer release. Everyone used Inarius Corpse Lance build - LITERALLY. I believe the top 300 or so were Inarius Corpse Lance builds. Does that mean it was the best build? No, it does not, but everyone followed that build NOT knowing that Trag's Corpse Lance was better. I knew this from the start. My first build since day one was Trag's Corpse Lance. Everyone told me I was a dumb and said Trag's sucked. Look at it now... topping every single leaderboard.

Now, you want to base your opinion on the "top" build. Well, that can always change WHEN someone finds a better build - just recently a Revive build doing gr105+ is better? (which I believe is a bug but whatever because thorns isn't applied the same way in any other build). The OP is addressing something that I understand which is a good thing because this expansion has basically been a BETA version of an expansion. There are lots of bugs dealing with Necromancer builds, but the OP is just making a comparison to enlighten himself and everyone else.
I am not bandwagon. I did not play Inarius when it was broken and I am not playing Trag even though it is the top build right now. I have always tinkered with Rathma even when everyone was crying about how bad it was because you had to spam so much before the 6pc was changed and even more so before CoNE came out. All I am saying is that the top progression players are coming to the same conclusion that I am. Right now Reilena is better using a build that does not use a curse or bone armor. And if and when someone comes up with a better build I am sure all the top players will change to it. Until then none of the theory crafting and paper calculations shows that something else performs better than what players have experienced. And from my experience Reilena feels like it performs better.
07/28/2017 06:12 PMPosted by DuckOfDeath
And if and when someone comes up with a better build I am sure all the top players will change to it.
Isn't that what we're after here? Trying to find the kinks and any real bottle necks that might be stifling future progression? I may not be #1, I doubt I'll ever be #1, but I do want to test and use what is most effective. You're working hard to discourage me with nothing other than "but look at those guys" and I'm here to say, "but look at what might change"

Fyi, I'm SHOWING you a paper calculation that shows that SotC could be better than Reilena, but you're harping how how you'll lose what? 5-10% on your Zei Bonus because you got slightly closer to the enemy? 100% Damage bonus to mages. That's what it is.

I will test tonight to determine if I feel that SotC build is better than Reilena build over 10 consecutive Grifts and check average elite kill time, trash kill time, total clear time, and overall time to completion of each run of 10. I may farm for some HFA's first, but I'll test at least one build or the other tonight
07/28/2017 06:12 PMPosted by DuckOfDeath
I am not bandwagon. I did not play Inarius when it was broken and I am not playing Trag even though it is the top build right now. I have always tinkered with Rathma even when everyone was crying about how bad it was because you had to spam so much before the 6pc was changed and even more so before CoNE came out. All I am saying is that the top progression players are coming to the same conclusion that I am. Right now Reilena is better using a build that does not use a curse or bone armor. And if and when someone comes up with a better build I am sure all the top players will change to it. Until then none of the theory crafting and paper calculations shows that something else performs better than what players have experienced. And from my experience Reilena feels like it performs better.


I'm not directing a general observation at you, but it should be made known. Since Necro is basically in an unofficial live beta release, you have to be open to better builds. You pointed to top builds on current leaderboards. How long did Inarius builds last preseason? Were Rathma builds even viable until the hotfix? Rathma was trash before devs decided to hotfix it. The top build pre-season was Inarius only because players were naive to Trag builds. I'm not saying that you are wrong or right, but basing your opinions on current "top" builds really isn't the way to understand new variations. This is simple a comparison between 2 weps or dmg multipliers.

My point is, you can't say THAT it's wrong based on a top build. Then that means EVERYONE has been wrong since the Necro release because other builds have progressed further than what was supposed to be THEE op build. Not only that but there is a Trag Revive build that is doing 105+ gr. Will that surpass every build now? I guess it depends on "bandwagoners".

I can't honestly say which build is better right now. There are way too many unexplained bugs by devs. Lazy bastards.
Because Scythe of the cycle drops your armor by 4 secs EVERY time you use a secondary skill. That means it's really annoying to have to keep refreshing your bone armor, supposing you have it on low cooldown to keep casting it in the first place. You might even have it on numlock, but if it's not ready you can't cast it anyway.

So many times I find myself suddenly without armor and getting one shot. I'll much rather go for the flat 200%-300% of corroded fang or shadowhook.
07/29/2017 05:38 PMPosted by Hayrich
Because Scythe of the cycle drops your armor by 4 secs EVERY time you use a secondary skill. That means it's really annoying to have to keep refreshing your bone armor, supposing you have it on low cooldown to keep casting it in the first place. You might even have it on numlock, but if it's not ready you can't cast it anyway.

So many times I find myself suddenly without armor and getting one shot. I'll much rather go for the flat 200%-300% of corroded fang or shadowhook.
A valid point, but Corroded Fang requires you to curse enemies first, which means you must either get close enough to affect with aura (okay with Avarice Band) or cast actively, which IMO is worse upkeep than Bone a Armor that at least doesn't require targetting. I get what you're saying though. Good point
07/29/2017 05:38 PMPosted by Hayrich
Because Scythe of the cycle drops your armor by 4 secs EVERY time you use a secondary skill. That means it's really annoying to have to keep refreshing your bone armor, supposing you have it on low cooldown to keep casting it in the first place. You might even have it on numlock, but if it's not ready you can't cast it anyway.

So many times I find myself suddenly without armor and getting one shot. I'll much rather go for the flat 200%-300% of corroded fang or shadowhook.


So, you're saying that WITHOUT Bone Armor you have more toughness and live longer opposed to using Bone Armor and having to manage a cd? *scratches chin*

I gather that you die a lot more without Bone Armor, but your argument is saying don't use Bone Armor because the upkeep is annoying and you die when it drops.

So, how's your survivability when you don't have Bone Armor? It doesn't "drop" because you don't have it, which can only mean that you die 24/7 in correlation to your response.
The problem with the Cycle is that there is no room on the bar for Bone Armour.

Generator
Mages
Skeletons
Simulacrum
Devour

That leaves 1 spot.

Using Shadowhook frees up a slot for Decrepify (defense) or Land of the Dead (offense).
07/29/2017 10:30 PMPosted by Maxzero
The problem with the Cycle is that there is no room on the bar for Bone Armour.

Generator
Mages
Skeletons
Simulacrum
Devour

That leaves 1 spot.

Using Shadowhook frees up a slot for Decrepify (defense) or Land of the Dead (offense).
I think a lot of people forget that the reason that Sim and LOTD are used together is BECAUSE Of Reilena. If you use Scythe of the Cycle instead, simply swap Simulacrum out for Bone Armor
Trust me Reilena is much stronger than Scythe. And don't swap out Sim!
While Sim is up you're doing 4x damage (from Reilena and Singularity), and mages spawn twice as fast. Use Haunted Visions you get 30 seconds of 4x damage. With decent CDR you are attacking with Sim half the time.
The extra essence is a bonus.

Now when you get to 90+ RG and some elites can lock you down with 1 shots. This is where LotD and Sim comes in to save your bacon.
I think the problem is the difficulty on both builds, I think most ppl like Reilena version because it's more easy to maintain and play, and the SotC version just need to be more carefull, to no waste your Bone Armor, to maintain it, etc.

Also Reilena buff all your damage, not only mages like SotC does, so Bone spikes and your Skeletons gains a bit of damage too.

But I think the big thing is the easy way to play the Reilena version, maybe it's more Glass cannon that the Bone armor version. I don't use Simulacrum and my limit is GR 80 so if I could get better gear with high CDR to use Simulacrum, maybe I can reach 85-90.
You can mess around with Scythe in lower GR's as much as you want, but Reilena's is objectively the highest damage option = it is the only option to push your limits. I haven't read any posts here, but in case noone mentioned yet, Reilena's bonus during simulacrum is 4,1x = same as scythe, but you don't waste a skill slot on a useless defensive stat. You would have to give up either LotD or simulacrum for it and that is an absolutely massive damage loss (most of the real killing in higher GR's is done during the LotD+Simu). Why is LotD a huge damage buff? It gives you 100% uptime on Krisbin's 4x buff. Outside of it, you get 2x most of the time and sometimes even none. And dropping Simu is out of the question even more, as it is a straight 2x dmg buff from max essence alone.
Now outside of LotD+Simu, Reilena's is still far superior due to the essence generating part. Most of the time, you will have at least 5-6 targets to hit, which doubles your essence gain = doubles your damage output. And it ramps up more if you have more targets to hit, until you saturate with 10 full essence mages (which you would never do with Scythe). I would say outside of Simu+LotD, Reilena's would be on average 0-50% dmg buff over Scythe.

Now switching Jesseth into Cycle is a bit closer call, but overall the 400% vs 300% compensates for any extra damage you can gain from using a phylactery (but you also gain some free defensive stats), and command skeletons is simply much better defensive option thanbone armor - it blocks shots, it keeps some minions occupied, it has a reliable freeze without a cooldown (unlike the bone armor stun, which you won't have when you really need it), skeletons also help you stack your 4p bonus (not a big deal, but still helps a bit) and most importantly - your mages are not consumed (well not all of them), when final service triggers (only madmen run rathma without final service) = you do not lose damage. Also, you only need to use command once (unless you need it to freeze something to save you), while you have to keep reapplying bone armor. Due to automatic retargetting of skeletons, the freeze uptime will also be higher vs weaker enemies vs bone armor stun = more dmg from Krisbin.

Tldr; Jesseth+Reilena's are the best in slot weapon options for Rathma for max GR pushing. Other options can be close'ish but not best.

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