Question on Developers approach and Barbarian

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08/31/2017 10:51 AMPosted by Dza76Wutang
08/31/2017 10:47 AMPosted by S4v4G3
...

Dza brother, it's not a suggestion or request thread. It's a question to developers about general directions we going. We have plenty of feedback/suggestions threads. Amazing job on Raekors feedback, by the way.


Got hyped that devs might poke in, apologies brother teddy.


All good, it's understandable, you know me, I like clean and sound communication, that's all. Devs probably read 90% of our past feedback, is just "refining direction" we need right now so we can focus on testing and good changes in next few weeks.

08/31/2017 11:06 AMPosted by Shark
+1

Wrote a similar post:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20758836226#post-1

Not much support :(

Good Luck to you though!


It is a quality post of yours out there, I think it was a bit too early than because we didn't see yesterday's update back than. Now, all these questions are fully justified.

Grats on your HoTA clears last night, I'll be testing the hell out of it next few days:)
Great post, thanks!

It would be good to know what is really on the table so that our requests and testing can be focused in a positive direction.

I'm hopeful they are considering more than we know about so far since they went from the initially planned IK buff to bumping other items.

I think there are three actual avenues:
1. Straight set buff number game
2. Numbers game with new multipliers being introduced
3. Introducing new legendary powers that work in fun ways to actually change current builds and items chosen.

I think 3 is probably out of scope, but I still have hope for 2 based on Don telling us the planned IK buff then coming back to say that maybe they would go in another direction after all after discussion with the community.
08/31/2017 09:58 AMPosted by Weaver
Stop it with your "Cheers!" in some replies and not others, it makes you look so damn gay.

Lol I have to explain this for all:
In Australia and New Zealand, saying cheers means:
  • Thank you
  • Regards
  • Cool
  • No problem
  • It has many many meaning. You can place it any context basically.
    I would love to know the answer for such question and a couple others.

    Its an overwhelming feeling of loss each PTR, not at a personal level but as an example of how things can be so mismanaged to perpetually fail several million dollar opportunities.

    Was i a management teacher i would give my students this game as a case study, as such a hyped game can be so undone to its roots, and still be a commercial success for years, but at the cost of failing inflating its revenue by the tens, while still maintaining the status of unfulfilled potential.

    Whatever Don Vu intends with this new community interactions, and what is announced up to blizzcon might as well dictate the future of this great game.
    08/31/2017 02:56 PMPosted by SapodoDiabo
    I would love to know the answer for such question and a couple others.

    Its an overwhelming feeling of loss each PTR, not at a personal level but as an example of how things can be so mismanaged to perpetually fail several million dollar opportunities.

    Was i a management teacher i would give my students this game as a case study, as such a hyped game can be so undone to its roots, and still be a commercial success for years, but at the cost of failing inflating its revenue by the tens, while still maintaining the status of unfulfilled potential.

    Whatever Don Vu intends with this new community interactions, and what is announced up to blizzcon might as well dictate the future of this great game.


    You know certain things are obvious when you deal with things that are under development. When they release a PTR, they release patch notes. These patch notes define the context of their PTR patch. Therefore, if an item or a set has been buffed/changed in a PTR patch, it is by default the subject worked on by the developers. This is as clear as day light. Any feedback given in this context is at a 100% chance of being relevant to the PTR.

    However, any other feedback that focuses on some anticipated item is not part of such a PTR. At least the chance of this being relevant is definitely less than 100%. Usually, any feedback given for anticipated items can be a part of a future PTR with the highest likelihood and even then the number of items developed for a class would be a maximum of 2 items.

    I have been stating this many times that this PTR is about pears, but why we are continuously giving them apples. Let's just first focus on the items and sets that are part of this PTR. Then, we can worry about some anticipated item development. The community did not set its priorities right and let's hope that the developers put the appropriate numbers to those sets in the next week.

    Or we will lose another 3 months till the next PTR if they ever choose to modify the sets again.

    We will wait and see.
    Most true Prokhan, and im not stating otherwise.
    But look at the handling of both IK barb and M4 N6 from dh's.

    IK 1500% is intended, doesnt make into it, meanwhile all it takes is a comment from S4 and Don backtracks.
    There must be a guiding line to the whole process, and if its raekors, ww or whatever other skill screwing the maths, well ... Its simple maths, 4x5 is the same as 2x10.
    And meanwhile, IK problems arent solved when simple unavoidable solutions are simple and clear.

    M4 is even worse, the hybrid combo provided at least two new capable, not over the top, builds.
    Last patch notes just obliterated any possibility, because reasons noone understands. Following the same reasoning, Charge is to be played with raekors set, prob is set (6) doesnt buff Charge.

    Nonetheless, im fine with post fine tuning and development.
    I dont know many games that provide the same on going support as D3.
    Its just that how its done around here doesnt feel right.

    But, should Don gifts us with further comments and planning, ill concede and work towards a better end.
    Atm i just feel its fruitless.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Disclaimer: Below are my personal opinions. They may or may not exactly represent the ideas of the barbarian community as a whole and should not be taken as the only proposals. Most of the claims have been backed up by data/tests and have been reported as close to the reality as possible. The background for each of the given concept can be found elsewhere in this forum and reddit (links added to the references below).
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Can we please come to a brief agreement on this as a community for everyone's benefit:

  • Remove IK boulder breaker or turn it into a legendary weapon (this will eliminate Raekor and IK hybrids forever and for the sake of this class)-this may be a bit controversial, but well you never know....
  • Buff IK to its rightful place as a set (1200%-1600% is a good starting point with Berserker all runes added at 6P, or at least Striding giant and Thrives on Chaos)
  • Buff Wastes and Skull grasp to its rightful place (3500% + 500% are good starting points for testing)
  • Buff MOTE and GoG to its rightful place (4100% + 350% are good starting points for testing)
  • Buff Raekor to 2000% per stack and introduce a damage reduction option somewhere within the set
  • When these buffs are combined with the current BoM and GoJ buffs in this PTR, the barbarian class will be at a very good balance with the other DPS classes.

    Dear developers, please give us the opportunity to test these options in the next week's PTR. The effort required to implement these numbers is minimal and you will not lose anything in the PTR. We can at least populate a good number of tests and then you can decide whether to keep the buffs or tweak them slightly using your developer testing tools/methods.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Reference Analyses/Reports:

  • https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20758746865
  • https://redd.it/6vr10d
  • +1 for Pro's list.
    Can't and won't support removing IKBB.

    First off, do any of you really think entirely reconfiguring the sets is an option?

    You don't think getting a new multiplicative item is possible, but you think the developers will up end the current set configurations?

    Second of all, all the classes except Necro have a 7-piece set. I don't think Barbarians should be the only one. And I assume Necro will eventually get their own.
    Jako, you are welcome to have your opinion and you don't have to agree with me. Above is my personal request, whether it is welcomed by the developers or not. Below is my reasoning:

    08/31/2017 04:45 PMPosted by Jako
    Can't and won't support removing IKBB.

    Why not if it is going to keep popping up as the limiting factor of Immortal King's set. It is getting quite ridiculous to be honest. The whole class in miserable state every time they talk about a buff to IK, the Raekor and IK hybrid pops up as the limit. As if IK was a set designed to be used only together with Raekor. This is a fundamental design flaw at the current state of this game.

    Or, maybe they should stop worrying about the top performance of IK+Raekor hybrid and buff IK as required. Leave the option to the players whether to use IK raekor hybrids. It is really sad.

    Regards
    08/31/2017 03:05 PMPosted by Prokahn

    I have been stating this many times that this PTR is about pears, but why we are continuously giving them apples. Let's just first focus on the items and sets that are part of this PTR. Then, we can worry about some anticipated item development. The community did not set its priorities right and let's hope that the developers put the appropriate numbers to those sets in the next week.


    Fully agreed Pro, but i'm quite sure that we don't stand alone about having exactly the same expectations, as you rightfully wrote above.
    I mean, we're all reasonable people and know how things work.

    However, and only regarding Sets and the Items at hand, this PTR focus, the following could be done to no prejudice to any existing or possible build,

    1) Incorporate damage reduction in Raekor's
    Its part of all build's designs and associated skills do not provide any mitigation.

    2) Incorporate Rend into Wastes (6)
    Because Rend will still be inconsequential without support items. However, players would have something to test and provide useful feedback for the second round of itemization due next season.

    3) Incorporate Lut Socks into MotE just for the sake of testing.
    Making it clear in advance that it could not make it live. And reinforcing that all weeks, through positive communication and offering alternatives or sensible justifications.

    4) Girdle of Giants acting two way, Bracers of Destruction cap reworked.
    The world wouldn't turn upside down because of these changes.
    If it slightly did, fine tune Bracers modifier to a lower value if necessary.

    5) Incorporate Ancient Spear in MotE legendaries, such as GoG.
    6) Update or revise Ancient Spear modifiers in their own support legendaries,
    because many other skills or sets have received such treatment.
    Worst case scenario, Ancient Spear would remain as useless as it is now.

    7) Finally, Buff IK as predicted and requested, and buff every other Set if necessary, to make their thematic skills prevail over IK.
    As always, one can always fine tune the numbers around the supporting legendaries of those specific thematic skills.
    I'd rather have IK at 1500% and GoJ at 400%, Skull Grasp at 300%, Raekor (4) at 300%, etc.... i mean, its all maths as i said above.

    8) Give IK the mandatory runes it needs,
    The Set is mostly worthless by itself because its all about what support legendaries we have for specific skill.
    And we mostly don't have them.
    Wasn't it for the ridiculous 800% GoJ and we were still at the same position when PTR began.

    ---------------

    What i'm trying to imply here is that none of the changes above would drastically change our class positioning towards others, because of the gap you worked so hard to show us.

    Perhaps Lut Socks could be the only problematic, hence the note about "Don't take it for granted yet. We're just scouting options and need your testing feedback. Stay with us on this one, if not this PTR then next one."

    What every of the above changes would do was opening testing grounds for future itemization, creating a better picture of what is needed as support legendaries.
    Thus the ground level was done for next PTR and we would a happy bunch of barbs, because we knew things were coming our way.

    ----------------------
    edit 1
    I barely have free time, and yet i take some hours sleep to be around, read and participate.
    Give us some significant changes and i will gladly take a few whole nights sleep to test stuff.

    edit 2
    Welcome back to the forums Proey ;)
    08/31/2017 05:03 PMPosted by SapodoDiabo
    edit 2
    Welcome back to the forums Proey ;)

    Sorry Sappodo, I am only posting in PTR threads as it is a crucial time and every effort is important. Once PTR is over, I won't be around in barbarian forums.

    We will see man, all of those suggestions are rightful and correct. None of the suggestions given by this community is wrong. We just need to be more strategical with our requests and what we can achieve at weekly PTR update intervals. The rest completely relies on the developers.
    Yep, you're entitled to your opinion.

    I'm just letting the developers or whomever know, that I disagree and have a different opinion.
    Hey guys!

    All of this discussion has been awesome! I wanted to chime in to let you know we will not be removing IKBB from the set because we think it would disrupt current builds too much. However, we will be looking to increase numbers on many sets across all of the classes for the next PTR patch. We are running a lot of tests to ensure we get everything correct, so they are still TBD, but they are in the ballpark of what Prokahn suggested.

    Speaking of the next PTR patch, we will not be patching PTR next week. We are currently planning on releasing the next PTR patch the week of 9/11, probably on Tuesday or Wednesday. This timeframe is of course subject to change.

    The feedback, discussion, and data has been extremely helpful this PTR cycle. We appreciate all the testing and encourage you all to continue doing so. The best thing you can do for us in the meantime is to keep on pushing Greater Rifts with all sorts of builds on the PTR. Thanks again!
    08/31/2017 05:59 PMPosted by Don Vu
    Hey guys!

    All of this discussion has been awesome! I wanted to chime in to let you know we will not be removing IKBB from the set because we think it would disrupt current builds too much. However, we will be looking to increase numbers on many sets across all of the classes for the next PTR patch. We are running a lot of tests to ensure we get everything correct, so they are still TBD, but they are in the ballpark of what Prokahn suggested.

    Speaking of the next PTR patch, we will not be patching PTR next week. We are currently planning on releasing the next PTR patch the week of 9/11, probably on Tuesday or Wednesday. This timeframe is of course subject to change.

    The feedback, discussion, and data has been extremely helpful this PTR cycle. We appreciate all the testing and encourage you all to continue doing so. The best thing you can do for us in the meantime is to keep on pushing Greater Rifts with all sorts of builds on the PTR. Thanks again!


    You rock!
    08/31/2017 05:59 PMPosted by Don Vu
    Hey guys!

    All of this discussion has been awesome! I wanted to chime in to let you know we will not be removing IKBB from the set because we think it would disrupt current builds too much. However, we will be looking to increase numbers on many sets across all of the classes for the next PTR patch. We are running a lot of tests to ensure we get everything correct, so they are still TBD, but they are in the ballpark of what Prokahn suggested.

    Awesome Don,

    Thank you for this great news.
    08/31/2017 04:45 PMPosted by Jako
    Can't and won't support removing IKBB.
    Hey Jako make them triple it.

    08/31/2017 09:58 AMPosted by Weaver
    Stop it with your "Cheers!" in some replies and not others, it makes you look so damn gay.
    -22 lol

    08/31/2017 05:59 PMPosted by Don Vu
    Hey guys!
    omg blue ninja
    sounds good mr vu, any word or anything you can tell us about fury of the vanished peak and/or the bracers of destruction to possibly make seismic slam a viable build come the future of the ptr?
    08/31/2017 05:59 PMPosted by Don Vu
    However, we will be looking to increase numbers on many sets across all of the classes for the next PTR patch. We are running a lot of tests to ensure we get everything correct,


    That's awesome! Thank you for hard work! Everyone can play whatever build they like!

    Besides, I really like this way of communication. We know what you devs are thinking about. We both work hard to improve D3.

    Thanks again!
    08/31/2017 06:05 PMPosted by henry
    sounds good mr vu, any word or anything you can tell us about fury of the vanished peak and/or the bracers of destruction to possibly make seismic slam a viable build come the future of the ptr?


    Plus 1 trillion Henry.

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