Diablo3... Wtf happened

General Discussion
Thanks for all the fun.. but if I wanted to play in groups filling specific class rolls like tank/ heals I'd play wow.just isn't the same anymore and hadn't been for years
I agree. The META for grinding paragon is destroying public games grouping and the fun in the game.
I mean, just play whatever you want...

If there was no support roles, the best group would be 3 WD 1 Necro... Is that much better?
^ The optimal solution is group roles to be avoided completely and every player to have the choice what class/build to play not influenced by the META rather by what he feels is FUN to play.

Do you remember how it was in D2 - Baal runs had a default hammerdin, while all other activities had absolutely random group compositions. It was more fun, wasn't it? To coop with other not because they are playing a specific build and have xxxx paragon, rather to enjoy the game with them.
The only reason that the group roles are a bad thing is because Groups gain so much more in terms of reward.

If they smoothed out the reward system for groups compared to solo, it would not be such a hindrance to us solo players.

As far as removing support, I am not for that. There are a lot of people that prefer to play that way, and that is the overall point of gaming, have fun and play the way you want.
10/18/2017 11:57 AMPosted by Demonmonger
There are a lot of people that prefer to play that way, and that is the overall point of gaming, have fun and play the way you want.
That is what I am trying to explain - if fun is the main goal then META and group compositions have to be avoided.

About solo vs multi rewards - that won't change. If you play solo simply accept the handicap.
You can still find groups no matter if you play a ww barb etc. Some will always go for meta groups. But just ignore it and play what you have fun with.
10/18/2017 12:01 PMPosted by Skelos
10/18/2017 11:57 AMPosted by Demonmonger
There are a lot of people that prefer to play that way, and that is the overall point of gaming, have fun and play the way you want.
That is what I am trying to explain - if fun is the main goal then META and group compositions have to be avoided.

About solo vs multi rewards - that won't change. If you play solo simply accept the handicap.


I think having a meta and groups is good for the game. It draws in the crowd that love top level competition.

But the disparity between group and solo, as well as botting, prevent this level of competition.

If you could attain 90% of what the meta does playing any way you want, I doubt anyone would have a personal issue. The difference in GR clears could easily be attained by spending more time trying to find that GG rift as opposed to gaining that small 10% amount of power.
I don't know guys. I'm primarily a solo player but I'm pretty certain that if all you want to do is play high grifts, not top teir but in the nineties or so, with the new patch, you can do it with any build you want in any group composition you want.

Now if you want to push 120 or so, then the meta is where it's at, but there's no rule saying you have to play that high.

Finding a team in public games is rough if you're not pushing meta but in a clan you might find some like-minded individuals.

I'm only saying this because I played a necromancer build that nowhere near the meta on the PTR and beat a 97 and came close to beating 98 a few time with around 1250 paragon out of season when it was all said and done.

The build seemed to me to be a good trash cleaner and would do well in a group with some defensive boosts to replace Unity.

All this is said with the caveat that I'm not super skilled at the game but was pretty familiar with the build before the item buffs that buffed it.

Anyway, top builds will always be top builds in group composition but the new middle is higher this patch and I'm pretty sure you can have fun running 100+ with any team composition you want. Just not 120+.
10/18/2017 12:29 PMPosted by Demonmonger
I think having a meta and groups is good for the game. It draws in the crowd that love top level competition.
There will always be a META for pushing/competing and this is good. We are talking about META for grinding paragon here - GR runs done purely for the experience. If you find these requiring much skill, you are free to play Non-season, grind until you get 10k paragon and then start ranking. I find these a waste of time besides destroying the public games grouping and the fun of acquiring experience as a byproduct of actually playing the game with ANY group composition.

And the interesting thing is that this NS LB lock that is coming is aimed exactly at this - preventing the Seasonal players to be spoiled with the top group compositions rather motivating them to experiment themselves. It looks like the D3 devs are finally realizing the bad aspects of META and how much it affects the grouping for the start of the Season. Let's see if they will be bold enough to mass ban the botters like in S5 and finally stop this paragon madness with a proper game design.
10/18/2017 11:52 AMPosted by Skelos
^ The optimal solution is group roles to be avoided completely and every player to have the choice what class/build to play not influenced by the META rather by what he feels is FUN to play.

Do you remember how it was in D2 - Baal runs had a default hammerdin, while all other activities had absolutely random group compositions. It was more fun, wasn't it? To coop with other not because they are playing a specific build and have xxxx paragon, rather to enjoy the game with them.


And before Baal runs it was cows, cows and more cows. I remember a lot of different types of builds leading those groups. Blizz or nova sorc, java or bow zons, trap sins, probably a lot more. Sure cow games were mindless blather with free loot and laughably low level leeches, but they were awesomely fun. You could jump in any public run or make privates all night long.

Guess my rose colored point is....group content was just more FUN, and also we need more cows.
D2 had a capped difficulty level that every build could destroy. If you capped D3 difficulty at GR 50 it’d be the same, play anything you want. Likewise if D2 had an unlimited scaled difficulty at some point the META would be just as limiting.
10/18/2017 12:01 PMPosted by Skelos
10/18/2017 11:57 AMPosted by Demonmonger
There are a lot of people that prefer to play that way, and that is the overall point of gaming, have fun and play the way you want.
That is what I am trying to explain - if fun is the main goal then META and group compositions have to be avoided.

About solo vs multi rewards - that won't change. If you play solo simply accept the handicap.

What a hypocrite you are mate.

For the past couple of years you've made post after post on these forums whining about paragon levels and how it was 'unfair' that casual players couldn't compete on the leaderboards with those people who'd dedicate 16 hours a day to the game. Now when someone mentions the whole solo vs group play imbalance scenario you tell them that it won't change and that they should just accept the handicap.

If that's your logic, why do you constantly complain about the paragon system? Because it certainly won't change either. Perhaps you should just 'accept the paragon handicap as well'.
It's not true that every build could destroy in D2. Most classes had a weaker build. Were you leading a full group in hardcore with a spear zon, or smite paladin, etc?
Your point about META would also run into limitations, for example taking any melee build through act four.

But to the Ops point, the importance of class roles in group play as far as the Diablo franchise goes probably isn't hugely fun to some people.
10/18/2017 01:51 PMPosted by AdamFoster
D2 had a capped difficulty level that every build could destroy. If you capped D3 difficulty at GR 50 it’d be the same, play anything you want. Likewise if D2 had an unlimited scaled difficulty at some point the META would be just as limiting.
D2 had a cap on the experience gain - you forget that. While D2 would have had META for pushing unlimited scaled content, it wouldn't require a META for grinding experience since the max level is 99 and with a scaled content a la GRs it would be reachable quite fast.

10/18/2017 01:53 PMPosted by BRAVEHEART67
What a hypocrite you are mate.

For the past couple of years you've made post after post on these forums whining about paragon levels and how it was 'unfair' that casual players couldn't compete on the leaderboards with those people who'd dedicate 16 hours a day to the game. Now when someone mentions the whole solo vs group play imbalance scenario you tell them that it won't change and that they should just accept the handicap.
You judge too quickly. I always defended solo play and posted suggestions how to improve it. In fact as of now in this very moment I am sure that a SSF mode in Diablo 3 would be 10 times more epic than in PoE. The reason I say that solo rewards won't improve and that you have to "accept the handicap" is that this is the truth: The D3 team won't improve solo play simply because they are OK with the current disparity between multi and solo. If they put a SSF mode you will still be handicapped compared to multi. Will they implement such mode? I have no idea.

10/18/2017 01:53 PMPosted by BRAVEHEART67
If that's your logic, why do you constantly complain about the paragon system? Because it certainly won't change either. Perhaps you should just 'accept the paragon handicap as well'.
We already had a blue post confirming the paragon system won't change. I don't complain about it anymore. I complain that there is no cap of it. And I believe that a Seasonal paragon/main stat cap will improve this game for good.
What are you talking about? The group "Meta" has always revolved around efficiency, and so it is only natural that if you want to play at the top level, you need to have all your bases covered, i.e. DPS, CC, Recovery, etc. If classes were totally self-sufficient, there would be no need for having more than one character class in the game.

No one is twisting your arm to conform to the Meta. And I have yet to join a Public Game where I (or anyone else) has been vote-kicked simply because I did not use a cookie-cutter build or a select play style.

In the proverbial world of RPGs, the "jack-of-all-trades" is truly the master of nothing.
Thank you kindly for the update.
10/18/2017 11:52 AMPosted by Skelos
Do you remember how it was in D2 - Baal runs had a default hammerdin, while all other activities had absolutely random group compositions. It was more fun, wasn't it? To coop with other not because they are playing a specific build and have xxxx paragon, rather to enjoy the game with them.


Agreed, but to go even further, you didn't even need a hammer to do baal runs. Lightning sorc, javazon, or a pimped out trapzon could clear the throne as fast at a hammer.

D2 did have it's support roles. You had the bo barb, oak druid, zoomancer. While they were helpful, they weren't mandatory for end game content. When is the last time you saw a top 10 4-man group without a heal monk in it?
10/18/2017 02:22 PMPosted by HelloKitty
If classes were totally self-sufficient, there would be no need for having more than one character class in the game.
You have multiple classes, because this is more fun for the player, not because group play have to include roles.

10/18/2017 02:22 PMPosted by HelloKitty
And I have yet to join a Public Game where I (or anyone else) has been vote-kicked simply because I did not use a cookie-cutter build or a select play style.
There is no need we mention that the mass of the multi games are private. The public games are pretty low in numbers, because the people in order to grind paragon more efficiently have to play private games, where your character has to fulfill a certain role.

10/18/2017 02:22 PMPosted by HelloKitty
In the proverbial world of RPGs, the "jack-of-all-trades" is truly the master of nothing.
In the proverbial world of RPGs you choose what to master.
10/18/2017 12:01 PMPosted by Skelos
About solo vs multi rewards - that won't change. If you play solo simply accept the handicap.

Why? It's not like solo players are putting any less effort. The biggest culprit for the current gap is groups having access to broken ZDPS builds that take the exponentially higher rewards at higher GRs far beyond what a solo player can accomplish, which translates into far higher progression in terms of gem, CD augment and paragon levels. This wouldn't be a problem if solo had it's own dedicated niche, but we're stuck in the same competition context as people spending 99% of their time speed-farming levels where even the most competent solo players struggle to even complete a rift, let alone do it efficiently.

Consider how a solo player has to strike a proper balance between damage, toughness and overall avoidance skill. One can't simply sit in the middle of dozens of monsters spamming our biggest skill like group DPS characters do. We can't sacrifice all our DPS to favor perma-stunning and ridiculous damage mitigation. We can't stand forever on every affix. If anything, solo is a far greater challenge at any given GR level than groups face. Not to say we deserve better rewards, but we certainly shouldn't be getting the proverbial middle finger for choosing to not partake in this broken zdps support nonsense. Take those broken builds out of the equation, and I'm pretty certain we'll see that massive gap narrow down considerably, even with the standard extra XP/drop/gold rates groups receive just for the heck of it.

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