Diablo3... Wtf happened

General Discussion
10/18/2017 03:01 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
10/18/2017 12:01 PMPosted by Skelos
About solo vs multi rewards - that won't change. If you play solo simply accept the handicap.
Why?
The devs have explained why in the past and I agree with them: They don't want players who group to feel behind on rewards compared to solo play. There are casual players who group without playing the META and their rewards compared to solo play are not that bigger. The problem is that with group META play the rewards jump at a x10 ratio.

To sum up:
- Noob group vs solo play - balanced
- Pro group vs solo play - unbalanced

10/18/2017 03:01 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Take those broken builds out of the equation, and I'm pretty certain we'll see that massive gap narrow down considerably, even with the standard extra XP/drop/gold rates groups receive just for the heck of it.
Yeah, I too want to see D3 perfectly balanced, but we may have to wait for this a LittleTM.
10/18/2017 11:39 AMPosted by gbasso
I mean, just play whatever you want...

If there was no support roles, the best group would be 3 WD 1 Necro... Is that much better?


That's the problem. I want to play 100+ GRs but as if you can join a public game and have everyone perfectly set up for a 100+ GR over and over. It's not just join and play. It's all about removing yourself from the public to be a dedicated clan team. And I don't want to. I want to do T15 NRs or so. I want a challenge but awesome surprises like Goblin packs and shrines. Maybe the odd blue goblin. I love to see items drop randomly instead of all at once. But I also want to be able to get high paragon through that.

But no, IF I want high paragon and near perfect gear, I have to remove myself from my fun and form a dedicated team and just GR.

If people want to get powerful, they need to GR. If they want to have fun in NRs and bounties, then they are doomed to be weak.

We are forced to GR, and that's going to be the worst part of S12 since T13 just won't cut it this season at all. It's just not rewarding enough.

It's like we have more build diversity but less game diversity. Where as a few game styles were all ok to play before, now some are just not worth playing anymore. It's like how Power Creep made some builds not worth using in the past, now it's made NRs and bounties not worth grinding. It's been like that for a while yes but it's worse now.

Imagine if T1-13 were removed. How many people would play NR on master difficulty with a full set when they would be better off doing GRs? Public play would practically die.
I think there is a balancing issue here. If you want to do anything in the game and amount to anything, you have to follow the same meta, in this case, the speed meta is rathma runs. So the whole game basically just turned into nothing but rathma runs. It also becomes a dead game at least a month before the season ends. I know I haven't played in about 5 weeks.
When you get bored of D3 , you go play WoW.
Pretty sure this was the concept they were going for
Meta is a scourge on this game but what can you do. Sets and meta killed all build diversity. Now they trying to balance classes with what same sets? They need to get back to basics. I can remember when each class had one set and it was something to strive for. So long as they base new patches on LB and botter/grinder meta i don't think it will change .
Of course all sorts of BS, non-builds will float to the surface in this game!

This game allows people to switch their skills and change their builds at the drop of a hat and also allows people to leech other benefits through the ParaLOL system.

If people had to actually play a zDPS build all the way through the campaign and had to dedicate tons of time into building it then you would see way less people doing so because only people that consistently play in teams could ever survive through the game like that.

D3's non-committal playstyle is precisely why any type of stupid build will be used when it has an advantage. It's because people don't have to work for their builds at all. They just click a few buttons and swap their gear. This type of casual, non-committal playstyle will always promote dumb builds.
No one is forcing you to play in groups or the META, you do it because it's the most efficient way of doing it. Stop giving a crap about the bot leaderboards, the not so solo, solo leaderboards and then, only then will you enjoy this shell of a game
When I started playing I had expected a Diablo 2 experience.. hell,we all did.i held out for some time playing with 2 of the coolest people ever. One of them quit and the other plays just high end meta. Lol love ya fred my boi.So im left playing solo.dont get me wrong it is fun but that is not what I signed up for. Guess I should have seen the sighn when we were told grps went down from 8 to 4... all in all still had a blast but hay maybe something cool will be released to satisfy my d2 fix.. like that remaster everyone talks about. Till next time.. may all your drops be primal and your grifts be packed with Mobs!
The game needs to support 8 players (or at least 6).
The meta will break only if they cap the game.

If GR is practically uncapped there will always be a difficulty where you need to maximize.

Make things more difficult in other means than just scaling numbers
10/18/2017 05:02 PMPosted by Steve
IF I want high paragon and near perfect gear, I have to remove myself from my fun and form a dedicated team and just GR.
Yep, that is the main issue - efficiency kills choice which kills the fun.

10/18/2017 05:02 PMPosted by Steve
It's like we have more build diversity but less game diversity.
I absolutely agree. This however could easily be fixed if Rifts, bounties and GRs offer equal rewards - let the player choose what to play. Remove the need for GR keys, but also improve the XP in Rifts and bounties.

10/19/2017 03:59 AMPosted by akse
The meta will break only if they cap the game.
They need to cap only the Seasonal mode. It would work like this:

1) Make Seasons last for 1 month
2) Cap the seasonal main stat and gem levels
3) Make seasonal Rifts, GRs and bounties equal in rewards
4) Players on Seasons start grouping to have fun
5) While having fun and playing what they prefer the players reach the seasonal main stat cap and maximum gem levels without having to play a META
6) Those who want to compete at the end of the Season resort to a META for pushing, the other continue to have fun and try different specs/builds

What the above achieves is giving a completely new meaning to Seasons. I have repeated this million times on all Diablo forums: Season and NS in D3 pretty much overlap at everything. The above changes that and makes the Seasons a place for fun, while NS stays a place for grind.

Please try to understand how much such thing will improve D3 before downvoting the post. Thank you!
Not sure What OP is talking about, there is zbarb and zmonk, now even znecro in group GR pushing meta, those are support roles. Now if you talk about public group, then there is no meta at all. All the public group I played I see random composition. Usually it's really just 1 or 2 strong player leading then the others just tag along try not to die too often. Now this strong dps, which is not what OP talk about, is most likely necro ATM but it's going to change after 2.6.1. So all in all, public group is everyone-do-whatever since the content is face rolled, but in pushing meta there is definitely support role you can play.
10/19/2017 04:52 AMPosted by HamsterMojo
Not sure What OP is talking about
You have to read the whole thread sometimes before posting. There are a lot of posts that will help you understand it probably.
10/18/2017 05:02 PMPosted by Steve
10/18/2017 11:39 AMPosted by gbasso
I mean, just play whatever you want...

If there was no support roles, the best group would be 3 WD 1 Necro... Is that much better?


That's the problem. I want to play 100+ GRs but as if you can join a public game and have everyone perfectly set up for a 100+ GR over and over. It's not just join and play. It's all about removing yourself from the public to be a dedicated clan team. And I don't want to. I want to do T15 NRs or so. I want a challenge but awesome surprises like Goblin packs and shrines. Maybe the odd blue goblin. I love to see items drop randomly instead of all at once. But I also want to be able to get high paragon through that.

But no, IF I want high paragon and near perfect gear, I have to remove myself from my fun and form a dedicated team and just GR.

If people want to get powerful, they need to GR. If they want to have fun in NRs and bounties, then they are doomed to be weak.

We are forced to GR, and that's going to be the worst part of S12 since T13 just won't cut it this season at all. It's just not rewarding enough.

It's like we have more build diversity but less game diversity. Where as a few game styles were all ok to play before, now some are just not worth playing anymore. It's like how Power Creep made some builds not worth using in the past, now it's made NRs and bounties not worth grinding. It's been like that for a while yes but it's worse now.

Imagine if T1-13 were removed. How many people would play NR on master difficulty with a full set when they would be better off doing GRs? Public play would practically die.


Actually

Rifts and shards get base gear.
I don't remember the last time a usable item dropped in any rift...it's all kadala gear.

Then bounties to re roll to good versions.

Grs are gems and paragon.

All the gear hunt happens at Kadala and the cube...
There will always be metas and best builds in games. They are impossible to avoid.
10/22/2017 11:53 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
There will always be metas and best builds in games. They are impossible to avoid.


While that's true, it IS possible to avoid the current scenario where 1 choice or a few choices are exceptionally better than every other option.
10/18/2017 11:52 AMPosted by Skelos
^ The optimal solution is group roles to be avoided completely and every player to have the choice what class/build to play not influenced by the META rather by what he feels is FUN to play.

Do you remember how it was in D2 - Baal runs had a default hammerdin, while all other activities had absolutely random group compositions. It was more fun, wasn't it? To coop with other not because they are playing a specific build and have xxxx paragon, rather to enjoy the game with them.


Don't know why you're being downvoted. You're absolutely correct.
10/22/2017 01:37 PMPosted by Orrion
10/22/2017 11:53 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
There will always be metas and best builds in games. They are impossible to avoid.


While that's true, it IS possible to avoid the current scenario where 1 choice or a few choices are exceptionally better than every other option.


That depends on how the game is designed and on the situation you are under. If you have those players that you are playing with that are super concerned about using the meta. They tell you that in order to play with them you will have to conform by using one of the meta builds. Then regardless of whether it is needed or not you will have to conform to play with them if that is your desire.

It is not saying that balance is not important. What I am saying is that the people you are playing with matters as well as how the game is designed.
The way to avoid the meta is to play whatever you want solo. Don't care about how high it can go on the GR leader boards. Don't worry about how high you can level your gems. Don't worry about any of that at all. Just figure out the build you want to try then go ahead and get all of the pieces of gear you need. Then try the build out. If it is indeed a fun build to play then you have found something that you can kick around with when you don't want to be worrying about pushing the GRs to get on the leader boards.
Ok, anyways the meta is kinda boring since there is only 1 and no more than 1... people just quit left and right to get the right combinations in public, which is really a waste of time..

why not just assign a power level within each team and have that power level affect the outcome of the reward for the party in the end of the GR?

For example, a group of barb with Waste set combined to have a power level of 5000, challenging a GR 100, which would have a difficulty rating of say 9/10

In that situation, if they successfully challenged, they would get a +9 levels increase for the gem levels (meaning, if their gem is at 99 level, they would still get a 100% chance of upgrading it upon completion of the GR 100 level.

Moreover even fail, they will have 90% more items of dropping.

And then another example would be

a group of support barb + support monk + firebat WD + corpse lance necro will have a power level of 10,000 challenging a GR 100. The difficult rating would be say 1/10... then they probably get no extra reward for their upgrading gems and drops..

Anyways, this power level should also of course consider the total paragon levels & items of each participants, damage, toughness, healing, skills usage, etc..

Power level will need to be calculated carefully though...

such as how damage will be calculated upon
how toughness will be calculated upon
how healing will be calculated upon

My opinion would be in order to avoid a meta of 2 supports & 2 offenses having a better edge (since 2 supports can be extremely low paragon levels); therefore, multiplying the toughness and healing power level ratio should be much higher than that of damage.

Once this type of power level system implemented... I believe that meta problem could be solved... since joining with any combinations will not be a much impact to the final rewards of each GR.

Anyways, to implement this is quite complicated.. so i guess with the 1-2 part times currently maintaining for Diablo 3, i guess it will be a no no forever whether it be a good or bad idea.

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