[Guide]2.61 MoTE - Leapquake Guide

Barbarian
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11/28/2018 10:43 AMPosted by S4v4G3
Funny enough this is one variant I pretty much avoided playing, for no reason really.


I thought it was because you hated BoM...?

I guess with season 16 RoRG buff you could go F+R, BoD, wear Lut Socks, CoE + APD in cube... might be right up your alley!
That won´t work that well, because the (6) set damage buff puts you in 6-10 GRs higher content without providing any real damage mitigation options.

Aquila doesn´t work with the build given how much time you spend building Fury.

Band of Might is the single best mitigation item in the game, especially for LeapQuake, where you proc it without thinking. It´s a big difference to SlamSpam variants I have tested, where I insta-die when I forget the 8 second Leap window, and it happened a lot during PTR.

I always tell people this example. Band of Might grants damage mitigation equal to Aquila (50%) + Unity (50%) + Threatening Shout (20%). It´s absurdly good.

I have cleared +7 with Physical LeapQuakeSlam on this PTR compared to my live record from 11 months ago and my Leaps are slower on the PTR because of latency, so based on past experiences, I am usually able to clear 2-4 GR levels higher during the live patch.

Back to my first point, incoming damage is multiplied by 1.02338 per level (doubled every 30 GRs after 70), which means
6 GR levels = +14.9% incoming damage
10 GR levels = +26% incoming damage

To mitigate this increase compared to previous patch, you need a 13-31% damage reduction source, and you won´t find one with the CoE version, which is already living on the edge (thrill is one thing, but dying to random stuff while leveling gems or stuff gets annoying).

So now that BoM is established, you can drop APDs, and the best damage option is most likely Destruction alongside Peak and going physical. Main issue physical LeapQuakeSlam has in really high GR tiers, is the same all Slam variants have, the 5 enemy limit of Destruction, because stuff no longer dies as fast and you can´t really pick your targets.

But the reward is a more reasonable Rift Guardian fight.
@Nubtro:

Yes, it certainly isn't the way I would choose to play, I was just suggesting it for S4v4g3. A page or two back in this thread we got into a discussion of the various gearing options for MOTE and he seems to really dislike BoM and really like the APD variant of CoE fire.

Part of our discussion there is basically about pushing in "average" vs "soft" rifts:

11/08/2018 08:57 AMPosted by S4v4G3
Always, every time, all classes and builds, best clears and highest results are achieved with Glass Cannon builds. Mote shouldn’t be different.

It takes one person, with right gear, skill and persistence to go thru 500 keys, get back to back Festering filled with zombies, skeletons and grotesques, 4-5 elite condo and Saxtris with power or channeling, proving this right. That’s how it always was and will remain for as long as Diablo 3 will be slot machine, where you need 5 or 6 elements to align to secure the clear.


While I don't entirely agree with him, I certainly respect his point of view. And it is true that APDs are an insane defensive item. I'm not actually sure that 26% extra damage from +10 GR levels is going to make you die *that* much more with that build. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the damage reduction on APD's have no diminishing returns?

i.e. you're wearing 10% APD's, and you've stunned 10 enemies within 25 yards with Leap. 50 molten explosions go off right where you're standing! You take 0 damage. Yes, mobs build up cc immunity pretty quick, and yes, that one khazra impaler will 1-shot you in between density. But when you finally get that perfect "soft" rift, maybe there will always be enough fresh mobs to fill your progression meter *and* keep you alive.

Anyway, as I said, playing RoRG bonus Phys MOTE with F+R, BoD, Equip Lut, Cube APD + CoE is not something I'd advocate for most people, but for somebody like S4v4g3 who seems to enjoy a certain "breakneck" playstyle... who knows, maybe he'll clear 130 on season.
Ah geez, now there are reports of a 120 clear with fire-BoM-APD+Trapped,Stricken,Zei , 6700 paragon, on the Chinese server...
11/30/2018 07:29 PMPosted by Rage
Ah geez, now there are reports of a 120 clear with fire-BoM-APD+Trapped,Stricken,Zei , 6700 paragon, on the Chinese server...


Yes its true. 6700 para. Not much details yet though.

Barbie all sets 120+ GG.
12/01/2018 12:18 AMPosted by celtic08
Yes its true. 6700 para. Not much details yet though.

Barbie all sets 120+ GG.


May I ask that you or someone else log in and copy the LB data and Hero Details to Imgur? I'd like to update my Top 5 list and do some archival work.

Thank you for the assistance.

11/29/2018 04:51 AMPosted by Rage
Anyway, as I said, playing RoRG bonus Phys MOTE with F+R, BoD, Equip Lut, Cube APD + CoE is not something I'd advocate for most people, but for somebody like S4v4g3 who seems to enjoy a certain "breakneck" playstyle... who knows, maybe he'll clear 130 on season.


Asking you and others because I didn't keep up on MOTE discussions in PTR: In your opinion, what is going to be the strongest MOTE-based build in 2.6.4? And why?

My understanding is that Physical LQ+Slam looked promising in PTR due to its better single-target damage vs RG. On the other hand, I tend to be more conservative in my estimates and agree with S4: time has shown, over and over, that glassy COE-based builds such as classic Fire EQ are stronger overall when pushing the absolute limits of the build.

So in PTR, is is just about switching from Fire to Physical so Rumble handles the RG/elites and stacks more Stricken? Swap Parthans for Destruction and use Band of Might? Is that all?

I know we won't know for sure until the patch goes live and leaderboard data comes back, but I'd like to hear some informed opinions on the matter. Turns out archival work is the most enjoyable part of D3 for me. :P
12/01/2018 01:59 PMPosted by Free
Asking you and others because I didn't keep up on MOTE discussions in PTR: In your opinion, what is going to be the strongest MOTE-based build in 2.6.4? And why?


I guess my honest answer is... I don't know? But I'll try to give you a picture of my thinking.

CHANGES?

In a certain sense, the actual order of MOTE builds, right now, will probably be maintained into 2.6.4. Because we're getting a damage buff to the class set, and nothing (as far as we know) to any of our supporting legendaries. But... we don't actually know which MOTE variant is best, right now. For a while, Fire CoE was on top (116 peak, I believe). Then Fire BoM matched it and then quickly exceeded it (118). Then, just in the last month or so, Physical took the top rank (119), only to have Fire BoM once again retake the title (120).

SURVIVAL!? OR: FIRE VS FIRE

I'll start by saying this: if we put the best players of Phys, Fire CoE, and Fire BoM in some sort of time bubble and forced them to play 10 million greater rifts each, Fire CoE would probably come out on top. It certainly does more damage than Fire BoM (though how much more, exactly, is debatable), and, in overall terms, probably more than Phys as well. Since its survival is based on APDs, in the legendary "perfect rift", you could probably go all the way to the RG hardly taking any damage at all, even at GR 130, and even though outside of density most things will one shot you. Then you could get a power pylon and Saxtris as a RG draw. In a truly perfect scenario, you could probably drop diamonds for rubies in your gear, and switch Esoteric for Powerful or Zei's, since APD's can literally give you 100% damage resistance.

But: only the very best players are really going to be able to capitalize on that perfect rift. Most people will kill their trash too quickly, and then they'll die because they don't have enough APD procs. Others won't draw enough elites into a big pile before fighting them, and, again, they'll die because they don't have enough APD procs. Or, they'll draw too many elites into a pile, the mobs will build up cc immunity, the screen will fill up with arcane beams, and, once again, they'll die because they don't have enough APD procs. Fishing with BoM Fire is bad. Fishing with CoE Fire is HORRIBLE. I'd say I close probably 95% of the rifts I open when I'm using CoE within 1 minute. For BoM it's more like 75%. So I get maybe 5x as many "looks" with BoM as I do with CoE. I'll come back to that later.

With Fire BoM you do less damage than with CoE. That's obvious. But: you can get a bunch of that damage back, and you are a hell of a lot tougher. The new highest clear with MOTE (120) was running Fire-BoM-APDs-Trapped-Stricken-Zei's. Trapped and Stricken are pretty much givens with every MOTE build (and pretty much every build in the game). The third slot has always been a bit of a question mark. I think the majority probably run Powerful. The previous highest Fire clear (118) ran Gogok, which gets you more Insanity, more TS and WC quakes, and more stricken stacks on the RG, plus some decent dodge bonus. You can also gain an extra damage stat on one piece of gear since you only need one 8% CDR roll. Zei's has an absurdly high damage bonus (80% at rank 150, 60% at 100), but it's hard to get the most out of the bonus, especially when playing the fire variant (Phys has it easier when using Zei's). Whatever you choose, you're gaining damage against CoE's probable choice of Esoteric. You also don't have to make as many tactical decisions that reduce your damage. With CoE you have to keep a good pad of stunned enemies, or you're dead. So you end up leaping in a sort of X or Z, to spread around the stuns, and the damage gets spread around too. It's fairly rare that you can just leap up and down in an oculus circle, focusing your damage on elites, and letting the trash sort of slowly filter in so that you're getting the most out of your area damage. Doing that with BoM is still fairly hard, but MUCH easier than with CoE. Or, when you're fighting a RG that isn't Saxtris or Hamelin, with CoE you have to leap twice on the RG, then leap away before he wakes up and one shots you. That's 33% of your damage just thrown away. With BoM you can make pretty much every leap a damage dealing leap. Bottom line: with BoM you can make a good attempt in a lot of rifts where with CoE you'd just be dead. Like I said, with BoM you get a lot more "looks".

DAMAGE?! OR: FIRE VS PHYSICAL

Until quite recently the highest Phys MOTE clear I'd heard of was Nubtro's 109. Then I found video of a Korean player clearing 114, and that at only 2600 Paragon. And the rift itself was, from my perspective as mostly a Fire BoM player, terrible. He got something like Pandemonium Fortress-Vault of Assassin-Battlefields of Eternity-Hell Rift-Vault of Assassin. I usually just remake the game if I see anything on level 1 other than Battlefields, Festering, or Silver Spire. He also didn't have a conduit pylon, just speed, then channeling, and then power for the RG (Agnidox, not a great draw). It's a very impressive clear. He uses trapped-stricken-zei's, which I think is probably the best for Phys. So much of your damage comes from Slam that you're always looking to leap to an oculus circle on your third leap, and with Zei's, being further from targets is a plus. Channeling pylons are also, I believe, significantly better with Phys than with Fire, since you can pump out high-fury slams pretty much twice as frequently as you normally can (TS- 3 leap -Slam - TS-WC-EQ-Slam, repeat). I have not seen video (there may not be any) on the recent 119 Phys clear (Korean server). I would certainly like to.

Anyway, based on some admittedly thin evidence, I think Phys may get more "looks" than either Fire variant. I have certainly never seen Fire clear a 114 with so many impediments (Mostly bad levels, mediocre pylons, not a good RG, relatively low paragon, etc).

CONCLUSION, OR: GET TO THE POINT, BUDDY!

If people ran an infinite number of greater rifts, CoE Fire would have the highest clear. This is even taking into account the +10 GR levels we will get from the 2.6.4 damage buff, and the resulting +26% damage you're going to take. The APDs just don't care: you're either going to be pretty much invulnerable, or you're going to be dead. And in an infinite number of rifts, eventually things will work out in your favor.

But that is obviously not going to happen. My guess is that the largest number of people, by far, will run BoM Fire. CoE is just incredibly painful to fish with, and Phys still has a (undeservedly) bad rep.

If you open 100 GR's, with Phys you will perhaps be able to make a good attempt on 35 of them, With BoM Fire, maybe 25, and with CoE, 5. I think if relatively similar numbers of people decide to play Phys and BoM Fire (doubtful, in my mind), we may see the highest clear in Phys. But probably, it will be BoM Fire. There are just going to be, by a large margin, the most attempts using that variant, and so I think it'll have the highest clear.

I guess we'll see!
12/03/2018 01:33 PMPosted by Rage
If people ran an infinite number of greater rifts, CoE Fire would have the highest clear. This is even taking into account the +10 GR levels we will get from the 2.6.4 damage buff, and the resulting +26% damage you're going to take. The APDs just don't care: you're either going to be pretty much invulnerable, or you're going to be dead. And in an infinite number of rifts, eventually things will work out in your favor.


MOTE's relationship with Parthans is much like WW's: You're invincible or you're gibbed. WW, of course, has Spear, and thus has a much easier time creating and maintaining density. I think that's an advantage Phys EQ has over Fire--Cave In is much more effective at building density than Death From Above, but you won't get the Parthan's proc without a Freeze or Stun roll elsewhere.

Anyway, I agree with your analysis: Phys EQ with Slam + BoM is underrated. So, too, is Fire+BoM. Ultimately, if someone is willing to blow 1000+ keys, Fire+CoE will likely take the top spot--and it clearly has the highest power potential of all the builds due to CoE's multiplier; you can't make up all of that elsewhere, especially when you factor in the difference in base skill damage between Fire and Phys. But I also think Phys EQ+Slam is underrated and hasn't yet been pushed to its true limit. And its ability to add extra DPS vs the RG shouldn't be overlooked.

As far as gems go, I've personally always found Zei's too conditional even if it offers a larger multiplier than Powerful. Powerful, on the other hand, loses effectiveness as you go higher in GRs, particularly as you increase the time between elite kills.

Your emphasis on "looks" is spot-on. Another way to put it is consistency; any build that relies on BoM over CoE offers more consistency in rift selection and clears. I don't see a point to the CoE fishing expedition unless you're gunning for rank 1 and willing to blow keys for months.

12/03/2018 01:33 PMPosted by Rage
CONCLUSION, OR: GET TO THE POINT, BUDDY!


No, no. Write it out. This forum is at its best when there's meaty, rigorous discussion. Don't curtail for the sake of brevity.
Ultimately, if someone is willing to blow 1000+ keys, Fire+CoE will likely take the top spot


Honestly? I think it's going to be more like 10000 keys. I think top players are already spending enormous numbers of keys to get top clears. I think the guy who first got 116 with BoM Fire spent like 2000 keys to get it? And then a similar number to get 118.

And CoE gets a lot less "looks"...

Oh, also, in season 16, I think somebody really could use RoRG buff to run Phys w/ F+R, BoD, APD + CoE in cube. It'll be squishy, you'll die a ton, but it will do an absolutely ridiculous amount of damage. Somebody ought to give it a try.
Ultimately, if someone is willing to blow 1000+ keys, Fire+CoE will likely take the top spot


Honestly? I think it's going to be more like 10000 keys. I think top players are already spending enormous numbers of keys to get top clears. I think the guy who first got 116 with BoM Fire spent like 2000 keys to get it? And then a similar number to get 118.

And CoE gets a lot less "looks"...

Oh, also, in season 16, I think somebody really could use RoRG buff to run Phys w/ F+R, BoD, APD + CoE in cube. It'll be squishy, you'll die a ton, but it will do an absolutely ridiculous amount of damage. Somebody ought to give it a try.

especially when you factor in the difference in base skill damage between Fire and Phys.


Yes, Fire will always do more damage with quakes... but Phys will always do more damage with slam!
Think with CoE is, that it is not simple "you get x3 for 4 seconds". Much like R6 HoTA, playstyle makes that 4 seconds worth way more than numerical x3. It's the interaction of Insanity, Rampage and gameplay that makes CoE so valuable.

Say, you have that open tile, you kill some stuff while dragging elites, keeping up with progress bar, at some intersection you finally have 4-5 packs, and some high HP trash, you pop insanity on Fire, leap in there, rampage goes 25, things start to melt, NoS triggers, but you have NoS for that reason, so you can stay in for second fire rotation, and on the end you got that 20%+ progress in 30 seconds.

However, BoM have a lot of pros over CoE. Firstly, you can go all out on DPS with gems, you can go with some rubies too, RG fight is way, way easier. You can go Earthen/Ruthless/Rampage/Brawler/Boon in passives, this gives you much better uptime of Insanity, Insanity is a win-win because besides obvious dps boost, it is the CC immunity that this build is severely lacking. All in all, with BoM you getting very, very consistent DPS. Zeis is actually GG for Fire with BoM too, sure in physical it capitalizes slam damage, but with this retarded 5 enemies lock on bracers slam is really shining on RG. In fire with BoM, since EQ are updating dynamically, Zeis does damage all the time. Even when you are leaping on density, you still get first 10 yards bonus, and the moment you leap away on 3rd chasing oculus, things are getting really nasty :)

I think for average and semi-competitive Barbs, Fire BoM or Phys + Slam will be the way to go. But for true fisher that is willing to go thru 1000 keys, APD+CoE will be still the way to go. Remember, there is also Endless Walk + BoM + CoE option, not really played much, but it is viable as well.

Funny enough, last night I was spamming 3-4 min 90's on my Leap-Quack, with Ingeom.

https://us.diablo3.com/en/profile/S4v4G3-11925/hero/98298044
Yes, Zei's does a lot of damage. A LOT. I think somebody like Archael who probably has a 150 Zei's could push further with BoM than with CoE. Zei's at 150 gives +80% damage. That's crazy. That is probably close to what you're going to get from CoE.

How much damage do you actually get from CoE? Well, in a GR, you've got 900 seconds until you fail. If we're talking about "the perfect rift", you're going to use every bit of that 900 seconds, since hey, if you could close it out in 13 minutes or something, you could have gone 1 GR higher.

Each cycle of CoE is 16 seconds (does it always start with cold when opening a GR?) So that means you've got 56.25 cycles. Assuming you're running with 33.33% CDR, you are going to have Insanity up for 1.25 cycles (20 sec), then down for 2.5 cycles (40 sec). Actually, I think after that 40 seconds-- in a perfect rift, where you're popping Wrath again as soon as you can-- you come off cooldown on Cold, so you're losing .25 cycles there, waiting for Fire. So it would be 1.25 cycles on, 2.75 cycles off. The only way to do better would be to get to 53.33% CDR, at which point you would have 1.25 cycles on, 1.75 cycles off. I don't think that's going to happen without dropping a ton of CHC, CHD, or AD, and anywhere between 33.33 and 53.33, you're going to start losing Fire rotations.

So: in a truly perfect rift, where you can pop Wrath pretty much as soon as you enter the rift (i.e. there's a ton of density right there at the opening), and then again every time Wrath goes off cooldown and CoE swings around to Fire, you're going to have Insanity and CoE in sync 14 times over the course of the rift.

Each time they're in sync, you get 8 seconds of Insanity + Fire damage, and 12 seconds of just Insanity. 8 x 14 = 112 seconds of Insanity + CoE Fire Damage, or 12.4% of your total 900. You will also have 12 x 14 = 168 seconds (18.7% of your time) of Insanity damage, without CoE Fire. You'll also have 113 seconds (12.5% of your time) of CoE Fire Damage, without Insanity, and 507 seconds (56.3% of your time) with no damage buff.

So:
56.3% of the time, you do 1X normal damage. 100 X .563 = 56.3
18.7% of the time, you do 1.5X normal damage (just Insanity) 150 X .187 = 28.05
12.5% of the time, you do 3X normal damage (just CoE) 300 X .125 = 37.5
12.4% of the time, you do 4.5X normal damage (Insanity + CoE) 450 X .124 = 55.8

(56.3 + 28.05 + 37.5 + 55.8) / 100 = 1.7765

I think the *maximum* bonus you can expect from running CoE, over the course of the whole rift, in perfect conditions, is a 77.65% buff. The *maximum* you could get from Zei's is considerably higher, since:

66.66% of the time, you do 1.8X normal damage (Zei's). 180 X .666 = 119.88
33.33% of the time, you do 2.7X normal damage (Zei's + Insanity). 270 X .333 = 89.91

(89.91 + 119.88) / 100 = 2.098, or a 110% buff.

Now, are you actually going to get that maximum Zei's buff, in the real world? No, of course not. For one thing, you probably don't have a rank 150 Zei's lying around. And you aren't always going to be 50 yards from your enemies. And it's very hard to keep all your enemies stunned with leap (to proc Trapped), and be 50 yards away from them (to get the max effect of Zei's).

You won't get the max effect from CoE + Insanity either, of course, but I think you can approach "perfection" a bit more easily. For one thing, it's much easier to just cube CoE and get a +200% bonus, than to get a rank 150 Zei's for an 80% bonus. And the difficult timing element of pairing CoE with insanity is just that-- difficult. I think it is literally impossible, spatially speaking, to get the max 110% bonus from Zei's. Still, a 110% buff is 40% more than a 78% buff, so even at a lower level of "perfection", Zei's is competitive.

I just wanted to lay all this out there and suggest that the "damage gap" between CoE and BoM variants is perhaps much narrower than has been previously suggested... that, in fact, it may not really exist at all.

If somebody (@Nubtro) could check my math and make sure I haven't made any appalling errors, I would much appreciate it. And if somebody (@Nubtro) has already mathed this all out somewhere, I sincerely apologize for repeating it here.
I have logged into Asia server yesterday or was it two days ago and haven´t found that 120 fire MotE clear.

That link from JustinFan in that record thread was to some Chinese forums where the guy posted 2 pics, one of a leaderboard record "120 in x time" and another with the setup.

Note that two of his passives looked weird, one looked like Cull the Weak, another like a Wolverine version of Boon (there was also Boon). It might be that Chinese D3 has different icons than we have for passives or it was from a console version which has different icons (no idea, only played PC version).

Or maybe that person just overwrote his clear with a different build later...

EDIT: Do the Chinese have a completely separate server beside US, EU, Asia that you can´t log onto unless you´re from China? If so, we can´t personally verify this, although I consider JustinFan as a trustworthy Barbro who´s been around many PTRs and stuff.
12/04/2018 08:55 AMPosted by Nubtro
EDIT: Do the Chinese have a completely separate server beside US, EU, Asia that you can´t log onto unless you´re from China?


Yes....
Yeah, I do think China has its own server, not connected to Korea, Taiwan, Japan, etc.

The passives are wonky looking... who knows, there could be cheating involved or something. Or, they may just use different icons for some reason.

On the other hand, claiming a 120 clear with that build, those paragons, is not all that surprising. It's not like saying that he cleared 124 with it or something, that would really be super suspicious.

Great things have certainly come from China before. Didn't static charge monk, from back in season 4, originate from there, when everybody here was pushing with Uliana's? Also, uh... gunpowder and tea?
Don’t forget toilet paper. It came from China as well

-_-
lol, true!
12/03/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Rage
I think the *maximum* bonus you can expect from running CoE, over the course of the whole rift, in perfect conditions, is a 77.65% buff. The *maximum* you could get from Zei's is considerably higher,


I dig your breakdown. I don't dispute the math one bit, but I do think there some contextual things to note, namely that it's easier for non-Zeis builds to use Oculus. In my experience, most Oculus bubbles spawn well short of the optimal range to maximize Zei's bonus. Any time an Oculus bubble spawns outside of density, we're losing more than a quake's worth of damage.

That said, BoM makes using Oculus much, much easier.

12/03/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Rage
I just wanted to lay all this out there and suggest that the "damage gap" between CoE and BoM variants is perhaps much narrower than has been previously suggested... that, in fact, it may not really exist at all.


Closer than believed, yes. I think the gap exists, but won't matter for 99% of players. And really, what we're talking about results from a lack of build-specific supporting legendaries. I hate that we're still optimizing around COE, for frig's sake.

12/03/2018 05:05 PMPosted by S4v4G3
I think for average and semi-competitive Barbs, Fire BoM or Phys + Slam will be the way to go. But for true fisher that is willing to go thru 1000 keys, APD+CoE will be still the way to go. Remember, there is also Endless Walk + BoM + CoE option, not really played much, but it is viable as well.


You might consider adding a breakdown of the different build variants to the OP. When people come to the guide, many are going to be confused over which variant is which--which is stronger? Which requires what gear? Which is the best if they want X configuration? Etc.
Ya, this weekend I’ll be doing new posts in 2 that I have reserved, and editing to OP with links to them. MoTE is truly amazing build, so much of room to maneuver around with different skills and gear rolls. I wish all of our sets had this ability.
Kind of a silver lining that it reinvigorated one of our oldest, coolest builds. I look forward to playing it when I get a chance in . . . January maybe?

Things I look forward to, in some semblance of order:

    1. Physical MOTE+Slam+BoM
    2. R6 HOTA (love that build)
    3. Impale DH (my favorite DH build)

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