T13 is now too easy

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10/30/2017 07:30 AMPosted by DrunkTank
What I said about mats, has nothing to do with rifts and everything to do with bounties. Comprehension is key.


Please, help me comprehend how your response means that mats/bounties in t13 would change for you in any way whatsoever if more torment levels were added?

If anything, you would likely be able to get your mats even more quickly if they followed suit and granted more mats in higher torments. But if t13 is your peak quickness for farming because you don't know how or have time to get fast at higher levels, then just stay doing t13.
As expected, ppl always find ways to complain
It used to be T13 so hard for some build, then ppl complain because they need to switch to the best class build possible to do T13. Now many builds can do T13, so the complain is too ez.

I'm pretty sure it's gonna go back to what it was if a higher torment difficulty is implemented, ppl will always try to find the best for the highest difficulty then complain not every build can be as efficient as the best build...

And the cycle continues...
10/29/2017 10:01 PMPosted by jimsaq
10/29/2017 03:36 PMPosted by Orrion
...

How so?

The last 2 times they added Torment levels it didn't solve the problem. Why would anyone even think it would solve the problem this time?


It was debunked by providing arguments that show it to be a faulty premise - check back through the thread to see them.

There has not yet been provided a single reasonable argument against adding higher torment rifts in this thread. Clicking the downvote button does not constitute a reasoned response.


Did it anyways.
@OP Apparently you need to build a DH and take on Belial on T13, an elite gamer said it's impossible!
10/29/2017 10:01 PMPosted by jimsaq
10/29/2017 03:36 PMPosted by Orrion
...

How so?

The last 2 times they added Torment levels it didn't solve the problem. Why would anyone even think it would solve the problem this time?


It was debunked by providing arguments that show it to be a faulty premise - check back through the thread to see them.

There has not yet been provided a single reasonable argument against adding higher torment rifts in this thread. Clicking the downvote button does not constitute a reasoned response.


I think "it won't solve the problem" is a pretty reasonable argument. In fact, it's basically the ONLY reasonable argument.

The "problem," as I understand it, is that the current Torment levels have become too easy.

The proposed solution is to add more Torment levels.

The issue I have is that the last 2 times Torment levels were added, they still became too easy. Plus, Torment levels have always been too easy for several top builds of each class. It stands to reason, then, that any new Torment levels added would also be too easy for several top builds of each class. Therefore, the problem of Torment levels being too easy would not be solved, and simply adding more Torment levels is useless.

As a testament to this, I present you the following: My Hydra Lightning Wizard was comfortably running GR75 before this patch. Under the current system that would be Torment 15. My Meteor Wizard is comfortably running GR 85 (and by "comfortably," I mean has 8 minutes to spare on the timer). That's the equivalent of Torment 17.

Let us say, then, that they add Torment 14, 15, 16, and 17, which is the largest number they've increased Torments by at one time so far.

My Wizard still cakewalks through it.

So, did that solve anything?

No.
10/29/2017 10:07 PMPosted by jimsaq
For example, to specifically address the one you've quoted a response to:

"There's no need for more difficulty levels when greater rifts exist. That's the point behind them"

1) The point of greater rifts is not to negate any/all other challenges in the game


No, but it is the endgame. If you're blitzing things using the top builds for every class then you're meant to be doing GRs, period.

2) If this were true, when greater rifts were added there would never have been any other torment levels added. From memory though, when GRs were added the highest torment level rift was 6


But again, the added Torment levels haven't been challenging either. Even when they were first introduced, the best builds had no trouble with them.

3) As has already been clearly shown in this thread, normal rifts offer things for some people that GRs do not. Asking for a bit more challenge in this area is not unreasonable and has no bearing at all on any existing component of the game


Yet again, I point out that added Torment levels have not been truly challenging even when they were first added.

Moreover, even if they go with that method, it's a band aid. You'll be right back here in 2 more patches asking for yet more Torment levels.

Don't you think you'd be better off asking for a real solution?
10/30/2017 04:30 PMPosted by Orrion
I think "it won't solve the problem" is a pretty reasonable argument. In fact, it's basically the ONLY reasonable argument.

The "problem," as I understand it, is that the current Torment levels have become too easy.

The proposed solution is to add more Torment levels.

The issue I have is that the last 2 times Torment levels were added, they still became too easy. Plus, Torment levels have always been too easy for several top builds of each class. It stands to reason, then, that any new Torment levels added would also be too easy for several top builds of each class. Therefore, the problem of Torment levels being too easy would not be solved, and simply adding more Torment levels is useless.

As a testament to this, I present you the following: My Hydra Lightning Wizard was comfortably running GR75 before this patch. Under the current system that would be Torment 15. My Meteor Wizard is comfortably running GR 85 (and by "comfortably," I mean has 8 minutes to spare on the timer). That's the equivalent of Torment 17.

Let us say, then, that they add Torment 14, 15, 16, and 17, which is the largest number they've increased Torments by at one time so far.

My Wizard still cakewalks through it.

So, did that solve anything?

No.


The OP didn't appear to be asking that your wizard be challenged by normal rifts, it seemed they were talking about their own characters because in the absence of anything specific, that's a reasonable assumption. My EU necro cakewalks through GR100, yet I don't somehow consider that a reasonable response to argue against adding harder torments or otherwise making normal rifts optionally harder than t13 is

I don't think there's any reason to expect that blizzard's only option in catering to the OP is to add torments 14 through 17, or that some arbitrary limit exists where it's not possible they provide a way to make normal rifts harder where required. So no, I don't think your response constitutes a reasonable argument against adding more torments or otherwise providing an option to make normal rifts harder.
10/30/2017 04:38 PMPosted by Orrion
Don't you think you'd be better off asking for a real solution?


As I already conceded earlier in response to Wierdzodi: yes
@OP

Play a Thornsader.

Never a dull moment as a Thornsader lol.

Praise be to Blizzard for buffing us as much as they did.
I wish we had viable alternatives to GR, but alas, that is not for tomorrow. I find GR to be boring and not challenging at all.

In any case, adding more torments will not solve this issue. Non-GR content is outdated. You get 100x+ less XP. Think about it for a moment. How will adding more torment solve that? Non-Rift content already suffers from a lack of 100% bonus to legendary penalty.

T13 feels lame because I could do 1 very high GR and get more reward (XP) than someone doing T13 all day long.

The gap between Torment and GR is what you ought to target. Torment difficulties, as far as challenge/reward are concerned, are irrelevant as long as the gap remains so large.
10/31/2017 04:42 AMPosted by DoomBringer
I wish we had viable alternatives to GR, but alas, that is not for tomorrow. I find GR to be boring and no challenging at all.


Out of curiosity.

If the max GR was lets say GR 100, would you feel they are more compelling?

I know that I would, because GR100 is something I can realistically hit on my own time, even during my busy season for work, and then making that the highest clear, you instead have people trying to solo speed farm the GR.

I think it still has flaws in this style, but it would be much better than the current FISH 3000 rifts system hoping for one perfect rift to get another level higher, only to do the same thing. Playing the game in a manner that requires you to do things out of the ordinary for an ARPG, like skipping monsters for instance, is just awkward to me.
10/31/2017 05:17 AMPosted by Demonmonger
I wish we had viable alternatives to GR, but alas, that is not for tomorrow. I find GR to be boring and no challenging at all.


Out of curiosity.

If the max GR was lets say GR 100, would you feel they are more compelling?

I know that I would, because GR100 is something I can realistically hit on my own time, even during my busy season for work, and then making that the highest clear, you instead have people trying to solo speed farm the GR.

I think it still has flaws in this style, but it would be much better than the current FISH 3000 rifts system hoping for one perfect rift to get another level higher, only to do the same thing. Playing the game in a manner that requires you to do things out of the ordinary for an ARPG, like skipping monsters for instance, is just awkward to me.


I don't think we should cap GR, but the XP it gives should be looked at. In fact, capping the XP at GR 100 would act as a solution, without having the cap GR. If a lot of build can do GR, then you open up diversity. You no longer need top team to farm XP. Well, top team will be faster, but that's totally acceptable.

You would only need to go higher if you wish to upgrade gems or push, which should've been the purpose of GR. Having GR as the only viable end-game was a mistake, IMO.

Once you've capped the amount of XP GR can give, you can now focus on bringing Torment to a closer playing field.
10/31/2017 05:17 AMPosted by Demonmonger
I know that I would, because GR100 is something I can realistically hit on my own time, even during my busy season for work, and then making that the highest clear, you instead have people trying to solo speed farm the GR.


Gr's don't need caps, or caps on exp. Solo just needs a boost to the exp gained, but the reality is that since people choose to play a certain way (inclusive of myself) knowing full well that it is less efficient it's a user beware situation. Not one that should change all that much either.

Point being, that the end game shouldn't be adjusted around a farm mode difficulty or a minority of players that think Torment is there for anything but farming. The more torment levels added, the less build diversity we have and all that does is force people into meta setups to speed clear, as Orrion is pointing out. Then it goes right back to square one. I think it was a matter of hours after the release of both T10 and T11 where people were complaining it was too easy, while running meta solo gr setups. Never mind most of the people making those complaints would have gotten destroyed trying to run actual farming setups in either difficulty mode.

10/31/2017 05:31 AMPosted by DoomBringer
I don't think we should cap GR, but the XP it gives should be looked at. In fact, capping the XP at GR 100 would act as a solution, without having the cap GR. If a lot of build can do GR, then you open up diversity. You no longer need top team to farm XP. Well, top team will be faster, but that's totally acceptable.


No way should exp be capped, I'm mostly a solo player and the decision to play less efficiently is mine. I would hate to see my friends punished (and it would be) by an idea like this being implemented. You don't open up diversity this way either; you actually restrict it to a Rat-Run meta unless you're pushing for gems.

There are enough games that cater to the lowest common denominator. I'd suggest that the people in this thread suggesting that groups be punished or who want a farm mode trivial difficulty to resemble end game when there is already an end game established (for years no less) go play one of those. That isn't a malicious message, but just an honest observation. If you aren't happy do something that makes you happy; don't look to make others have a bad experience because you are having one.
The more torment levels added, the less build diversity we have


True, just like GR is killing diversity.
Switching to Geico could save you hundreds on car insurance...........seemed to be just as important as this post.
10/31/2017 07:29 AMPosted by DoomBringer
True, just like GR is killing diversity.


Not nearly as bad as it used to be, most have 3-4 setups you could rank in the top 10 with. Something is always going to be best, but when you have builds that are exponentially stronger in a capped game mode it chokes diversity much more than Gr's ever could, for the simple reason that you wouldn't be using gold find/Sages etc. there and all the rest of the gem/gear combinations that are exclusive to torment farming in GR's anyway.

You've compared apples to oranges, essentially because GR/Torment are two different game modes with two different purposes. Not understanding or accepting that isn't a problem with the game, it's the perspective of a select few people.

Like i said as well, there are other ways to deal with this than just handing what may be the majority of the playerbase a punishment for playing in the most optimal way. That's a huge part of this game like it or not, and torments being easier to farm is most certainly not to the detriment of solo players. It amazes me that a group of players can be so obtuse as to complain about the difference in group vs solo while arguing that solo should be less efficient. Which is why I know that these threads are mostly trolls or penned/supported by people who would fall well short of Bell curve intelligence.
Something is always going to be best, but when you have builds that are exponentially stronger in a capped game mode it chokes diversity much more than Gr's ever could


Sure, we will always have better builds.

In an uncapped environment, that better build gets both MORE XP per kill, and MORE XP through efficiency (speed). 2 factors come into play.

In a capped environment (XP-wise), that better build only gets more XP through efficiency.

In the first scenario, if someone plays a less powerful build, they will be both less XP per kill, and less GR runs per hour. This creates a huge gap, and it will only be getting worse as people climb higher and higher. That's how you get things like "someone who does T13 Rifts all day gets around something like 100x less XP". This will only become worse over time.

In the second scenario, if someone plays a less powerful build, they will only suffer efficiency-wise (less GR per hour). They won't be getting less XP per kill (I'm ignoring gems or +XP stats here).

I am willing to play less powerful builds. However, there is a limit to how much I am willing to sacrifice. From my point of view, capping the amount of XP (or reducing the rate at which it grows) would make people more willing to explore other builds, as long as those builds are capable enough.

You've compared apples to oranges, essentially because GR/Torment are two different game modes with two different purposes.


Torment for farming. GR for pushing. However, GR also became the farming mode. Torment is almost strictly for bounty materials (clans got imaginary friends that share bounties), death breath and Hellfire amulet... oh, and keystone. GR got XP, Loot, Blood Shard, Legendary Gems, Augment, etc.

Anyway, if it was up to me, I would just create a mode/thing to compete against GR in a non-timed environment that is actually friendly to most builds. It would be something that embrace real randomization, not shun upon it, like GR.
10/30/2017 08:34 AMPosted by jimsaq
Please, help me comprehend how your response means that mats/bounties in t13 would change for you in any way whatsoever if more torment levels were added?

What???

You want MORE torment levels because the game is too easy? Why do you think we have GRs? Personally, I'd like to see them remove about 15 of the difficulty settings because the entire idea is just GD ridiculous.

But to answer your question:

Let's say they add more Torment levels. This slows farming speed for a lot of builds. And then Blizz buffs builds again. And then you cry because it's too easy. Again. So they add even more Torment levels.

Do you see the pattern here, child?
10/31/2017 08:59 AMPosted by DoomBringer
However, GR also became the farming mode.

Tell me, how many DBs you pull out of a GR?
Routine mundane taskes include:
1) doing bounties
2) doing keywardens/ubers
3) doing rifts to farm dbs and grift tokens.

These are daily mundane annoying tasks. Making them harder and longer really isn't worth it.

You'd have to seriously increase the reward significantly for time spent to make it worthwhile. But if you do so, then there will be one build to rule them all and it will kill the diversity we have now for t13.

I'ts good as it stands and shouldn't be messed with.

If you want difficulty go grift.
10/31/2017 09:35 AMPosted by DrunkTank
Tell me, how many DBs you pull out of a GR?


(-‸ლ)

10/31/2017 09:43 AMPosted by Phatty
If you want difficulty go grift.


I think that deep down, a lot of us would like to see an alternative to GR. When people ask for "harder" content, people always reply "GR". Well, some people hate GR or just would like to see something else.

I realize that it is not going to happen anytime soon, or if at all. That's pretty much why I moved on to other games, while occasionally playing D3 once in a while.

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