Invoker's flaws, and some ideas to fix it

Crusader
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I have come to love playing the Invoker set, as it captures the style of "the enemy breaks upon you" fairly well. Unfortunately, it runs into several viability problems as you go along, and ends up with several problematic issues once you reach higher level GRs. I'd like to put together a list of Invoker's problems, as well as a list of what things could be done to upgrade the set.

Problems

1. The Invoker set has poor capabilities against trash mobs.
While the Invoker set can quickly rip up bosses, elites, and Rift Guardians, it just doesn't do well against trash at higher difficulties, primarily due to the lack of a "crowd clearing" move. Despite that the build has some synergy with Bombardment, the Barrels of Spikes rune is far too weak and doesn't add any meaningful damage even when used with Invoker. It's also hampered by the fact that the 6pc bonus only applies that Thorns-based bonus damage to the first enemy you hit with any use of Punish or Slash, rendering Slash as ineffective and forcing the player to take Punish for its defensive boosts.

2. The Invoker set lacks any sort of "perfect weapon".
When the current BiS for the Invoker set is the Pig Sticker, which only gets the slot because of its attack speed and 5 affixes, you know there's a problem. Even the Hack axe doesn't do very well because its application of Thorns to your attacks is really meant for other classes, not the Crusader. The amount of Thorns applied via Hack is far too weak to be of use to an Invoker. Meanwhile, other build like the Condemn Akkhan build each have a "perfect weapon" that unlocks the build's true potential; in the case of the Condemn build, it's the Blade of Prophecy. But Invoker has no such weapon. This is a serious flaw, and one that must be corrected.

3. Many skill runes that employ Thorns are underwhelming.
Examples include Steed Charge - Spiked Barding, the aforementioned Bombardment - Barrels of Spikes, and Consecration - Bed of Nails. These all add Thorns damage to the abilities, but are all so weak that you barely notice any damage at all, even on some lower GRs. Most glaring is the Bombardment rune, as Bombardment is a part of the Invoker set's 4pc bonus. You'd think that a Thorns-related rune would work better with Invoker, but it doesn't.

EDIT: Extra flaw I'm adding as a result of comments below.
4. Invoker's clearing capabilities are highly dependent on the enemies you are facing.
This is one that's been brought up by other comments. The Invoker's 2pc Thorn procs are highly dependent on what enemies you are facing, being highly ineffective against slow, hard-hitting enemies, and strong against enemies that use rapid attacks. At higher GR's, this matters a lot, and getting a floor with a bunch of Mallet Lords, Dark Berserkers, etc., is a lot more frustrating than a floor with a bunch of Dust Imps, Tormented Stingers, etc. This also applies to enemy Elites and Champions, though to a lesser extent. The issue is that it makes Invoker clears highly inconsistent and far more luck-based than any other set, something that many find frustrating.

Now for the changes I would like to suggest.

Solutions

1. Add a new weapon that works extremely well with Invoker.
Reworking the Hack axe is something others feel would be inappropriate, as other classes make use of it to employ Thorn builds (i.e. Thorn Barbarians, Thorn Necromancers). To accommodate them, it would be best if Blizzard makes an entirely new weapon that works wonders when used with Invoker. Here is an example for a legendary effect that would work:
Upon taunting an enemy, deal damage to all enemies within 15 yards equal to X% of your Thorns.
This effect would allow Provoke to become a staple skill in the Invoker set for more than just attracting enemy attacks, and would significantly improve the set's trash-clearing ability while not significantly impacting its effectiveness against bosses and Rift Guardians.

2. Update the 6pc effect of Invoker to apply the bonus damage to all enemies hit by your Punish and Slash, not just the first.
This would allow Slash to be a viable option by letting you do some cleave with your Thorns damage, and would acceptably come at a price of using Punish in any real builds. Punish would still be the better option for taking out bosses and Rift Guardians, but Slash would be better if your goal is taking out trash mobs. Plus this would allow for some excellent synergy with the Omnislash belt.

3. Upgrade the 4pc bonus to apply the Barrels of Spikes rune to Bombardment and also increase the Thorns bonus to Bombardment.
Bombardment plays a big part in Invoker by providing damage resistance, but it should also serve as a viable damage source. Modifying the 4pc bonus (or maybe just upgrading the Barrels of Spikes rune) to make Bombardment deadlier would help a lot with the Invoker build's weakness against trash.

I hope that the devs will consider some of these changes. If you have your own ideas, feel free to suggest them.
I don't even run Bombardment on my bar with my belt since my weapon damage is sooooo low. I didn't notice a huge jump of damage while running it since its base mutiplier is close to nothing at high GR levels. It's good for speed farming normal rifts though since it actually chunks enemy HP.

I run Vacuum instead. This allows me to tunnel through packs of enemies while moving forward. It also procs thorns more often as it brings more stuff within melee range. I've yet seen one build suggest to use it.
Hack is a bad choice for Invoker weapon. It has slow attack speed.

They should make a new Flail or maybe just give us a dagger for highest APS for Invoker if you want it to have a special weapon.

And Barbarian players do definitely use and require Hack for their LoN Thornzy build. It isn't as popular anymore now that it is weak compared to everything else, but I'm sure some players would love to play it again.
Adding a useful, thorns-centric affix to Pig Sticker would be a step in the right direction. Something along the lines of "Your Area Damage is increased by __% for 2 seconds for every thorns stack" would open up gear rolls for more CDR, IAS, etc., while also clearing trash through area damage.
11/22/2017 06:02 AMPosted by mrspank
"Your Area Damage is increased by __% for 2 seconds for every thorns stack" would open up gear rolls for more CDR, IAS, etc., while also clearing trash through area damage.


Good idea, but AD needs to work with the 6pc before anything. Right now you could put 200% AD on the set and it would still not be very effective against trash.

What the set needs in a nutshell:

-To operate under the same rules as every other set in game, meaning that 2pc becomes a different multiplier.

-6pc needs to trigger AD.

-6pc Hits every target in 15 yards.

-6pc Now includes Block as a trigger for bonus damage.

-Buff to Hack; the weapon is actually quite good in cube with Pig Sticker on Equip.

-Buff to Pig Sticker affix bonus dmg to human/beast.

-Buff to Blood Brother, bonus damage now lasts for 3+seconds. Perhaps buff the damage reduction portion of the affix as well.

-Buff to Vo'Toyas Spiker.

- Buff to the Affix on Akkarat's awaking.

-Buffing block mechanics to include more attacks that are block able.

-Possible re work of the 2pc bonus; the stack effect is fun to play but it's the other half of why the set is not good with trash aside from having very poor interactions with AD as a stat. Many mob types don't stack the affix well at all and on top of that many mob types get 'attack locked' much like WD/Necro pets sometimes do. Meaning that you can be swimming in mobs (100+on screen) and still be stuck at 20 or less stacks of the buff unless you have proper elite affixes on screen.

-Removal of any internal cooldown mechanics that may be present in the set regarding thorns procs or AD procs from the 2pc.

-A ring to replace COE as our definitive damage ring.

-Buff to the affix on Justice Lantern to allow more offensive stat stacking.

-Buff to the base amount of thorns the Invoker set comes with; it is a bloody joke that I can get more thorns value on my LON Bombsader (billed as one of the hardest to gear setups) than I can on my I6 sader.

-Buff to Sanguinary Vampbracers

-Re work on Heart of Iron (it was made obsolete in the same patch as it was reworked; value of Str is /100, value of vit from HoI is /300) to either an Area damage bonus of some kind,or a powerful direct multiplier for thorns.

There are more things I could list but for the moment that's going to have to be it for me, IRL calls.

Currently pushing 110 on the set with a 108 cleared.

11/22/2017 05:06 AMPosted by Jako
They should make a new Flail or maybe just give us a dagger for highest APS for Invoker if you want it to have a special weapon.


It would be lovely to have a specific weapon designed for the set.

It's also good to see other 'sader players taking an interest in the set, the more people that become interested the more attractive it may be for the team to make adjustments.
Or we could rework Hack so that it's a better choice than Pig Sticker even if it attacks slower.

As for using Hack in your cube, no, Blood Brother is better.
Nah. Gonna disagree strongly on that.

We want high attack speed. Faster we attack, the more stacks we get on the 2- piece. This means higher thorns damage for the 6-piece bonus too.

Ya, we could make Hack OP so that it could cancel it out. But there's no reason to force Hack to be the Invoker weapon.
I always loved the whole idea of Thorns, and this set in particular, that's why I was so, and still am, thrilled with the new 2.6.1 buffs! For the first time ever, at 1450+ paragon, I was able to clear a GR101, and crushing elites and melting RG's like butter in the process, sooo satisfying.
Surprisingly, though, mobs are just a nightmare to clear, so I think AD in the set definitely needs some kind of re-work to speed up clearing times and push the set a little further up in GR rankings. It's super strong at the moment, without a doubt, but it could be even better while not being OP.

Loving all of the suggestions so far in the thread. Actually, we could get to the point where, with the right buffs, we might not even use Akkarat form and use Bombard or Consacration Bed of Nails instead, for more damage and flavor. ^^

Please devs, I hope you are reading all of these suggestions! :D

11/22/2017 06:17 AMPosted by jay
11/22/2017 06:02 AMPosted by mrspank
"Your Area Damage is increased by __% for 2 seconds for every thorns stack" would open up gear rolls for more CDR, IAS, etc., while also clearing trash through area damage.


Good idea, but AD needs to work with the 6pc before anything. Right now you could put 200% AD on the set and it would still not be very effective against trash.

What the set needs in a nutshell:

-To operate under the same rules as every other set in game, meaning that 2pc becomes a different multiplier.

-6pc needs to trigger AD.

-6pc Hits every target in 15 yards.

-6pc Now includes Block as a trigger for bonus damage.

-Buff to Hack; the weapon is actually quite good in cube with Pig Sticker on Equip.

-Buff to Pig Sticker affix bonus dmg to human/beast.

-Buff to Blood Brother, bonus damage now lasts for 3+seconds.

-Buff to Vo'Toyas Spiker.

- Buff to the Affix on Akkarat's awaking.

-Buffing block mechanics to include more attacks that are block able.

-Possible re work of the 2pc bonus; the stack effect is fun to play but it's the other half of why the set is not good with trash aside from having very poor interactions with AD as a stat. Many mob types don't stack the affix well at all and on top of that many mob types get 'attack locked' much like WD/Necro pets sometimes do. Meaning that you can be swimming in mobs (100+on screen) and still be stuck at 20 or less stacks of the buff unless you have proper elite affixes on screen.

-Removal of any internal cooldown mechanics that may be present in the set regarding thorns procs or AD procs from the 2pc.

-A ring to replace COE as our definitive damage ring.

-Buff to the affix on Justice Lantern to allow more offensive stat stacking.

-Buff to the base amount of thorns the Invoker set comes with; it is a bloody joke that I can get more thorns value on my LON Bombsader (billed as one of the hardest to gear setups) than I can on my I6 sader.

-Buff to Sanguinary Vampbracers

-Re work on Heart of Iron (it was made obsolete in the same patch as it was reworked; value of Str is /100, value of vit from HoI is /300) to either an Area damage bonus of some kind,or a powerful direct multiplier for thorns.

There are more things I could list but for the moment that's going to have to be it for me, IRL calls.

Currently pushing 110 on the set with a 108 cleared.

11/22/2017 05:06 AMPosted by Jako
They should make a new Flail or maybe just give us a dagger for highest APS for Invoker if you want it to have a special weapon.


It would be lovely to have a specific weapon designed for the set.

It's also good to see other 'sader players taking an interest in the set, the more people that become interested the more attractive it may be for the team to make adjustments.
11/22/2017 09:20 AMPosted by Jako
Nah. Gonna disagree strongly on that.

We want high attack speed. Faster we attack, the more stacks we get on the 2- piece. This means higher thorns damage for the 6-piece bonus too.

Ya, we could make Hack OP so that it could cancel it out. But there's no reason to force Hack to be the Invoker weapon.
Then we'd need a new weapon to act as the Invoker weapon.
There are a million ways to buff Invoker, but that doesn't fix Invoker. If you want to fix it, you need to address the things that feel bad, don't make sense, or work poorly.
What the set needs in a nutshell:

-To operate under the same rules as every other set in game, meaning that 2pc becomes a different multiplier.

-6pc needs to trigger AD.

...
That wasn't exactly a nutshell lol. More importantly, these first two things you mentioned are basically all the class needs to be in a good place. The other fixes/changes would help a little here and there, but the set would be "fixed" IMO after these two and some balance adjustments.
6pc Hits every target in 15 yards.
After making the first two changes, it's not necessary or even good to make the 6pc AoE. You have to decide what you want for Invoker. Is it a single target workhorse like Impale, or is an AoE clearer like Condemn? Getting both is asking too much and doesn't keep the build's current identity. You can't get Impale-level ST damage with Condemn's AoE.
Buff every item
These don't fix Invoker, they just fix the crappy items. Yeah, BB dmg buff is literally useless, HoI is terrible, etc. but it's not important to fix everything. You can't wear everything anyway.
Buffing block mechanics to include more attacks that are block able

Many mob types don't stack the affix well at all and on top of that many mob types get 'attack locked' much like WD/Necro pets sometimes do.
Making everything blockable is great, but the game needs a blocking ICD on some effects so that Invoker doesn't become a high roll fishing build just looking for Fire Chains and Orlash. This would also fix other builds that can also abuse this like Necro thorns or Ivory Tower.
Hack
Finally, leave Hack alone. Sure, buff it if you like but it's got an actual use within the context of the game already for other classes. There's no need to shoehorn it into Invoker. What Invoker needs is a brand new weapon that increases attack speed and damage, similar to Johanna's Argument but for thorns. This weapon could also include some of the other things mentioned, like increasing effectiveness with block chance.
To be clear I don't expect all that to show up in one patch; that's a road map for the devs should they choose to read and take the advice of someone who's logged well over 800 hours on this set. If they have other ideas then that's great; I'd be eager to try them out.

11/22/2017 09:48 AMPosted by Landy
it's not necessary or even good to make the 6pc AoE. You have to decide what you want for Invoker.


The best progression mobs in the game have the biggest hit point pools and most of them fall under the affix of PS that covers beasts. You'd actually need that effect to be able to kill them at the same time as the elite you're targeting that's the reason the set is lagging behind atm.

11/22/2017 09:48 AMPosted by Landy
Getting both is asking too much and doesn't keep the build's current identity.


Using BOTS preserves the single target identity of the set, adding a proc co efficient to the 6pc would allow for AD procs as well as being able to utilize the force stand still channeling trick for ultra mobile elites.

Perhaps have a look in formula at what WoTW,Condemn and Vile charge are capable of. Even with what I'm suggesting Invoker would be far behind all three of the set's I've mentioned off the top of my head insofar as AOE goes.

These adjustments would also be one way the set could become more effective with blue packs, as is they are almost always skipped unless they come with certain affixes, spawn near a champion and can be used to kill said champion quickly. To be clear I'm saying it isn't effective against the regular three pack blues, running into the far more common 4-5 blue packs is usually an auto skip. Which is an odd catch 22 to have for an elite hunter.

This set in particular only scales well with two pylons, Power and Speed. Speed b/c it allows you to move into Occulus procs easier and attack at a much higher rate than normal. It doesn't scale with Conduit well at all because there are no general multipliers for the set (outside the PS affix or Furnace-both work) and no CHC/CHD to scale off of. Classes/Specs are balanced around pylons to a degree in GR's.

11/22/2017 09:48 AMPosted by Landy
Buff every item

These don't fix Invoker, they just fix the crappy items. Yeah, BB dmg buff is literally useless, HoI is terrible, etc. but it's not important to fix everything. You can't wear everything anyway.


Not actually my quote, but I'll respond to it anyway; other builds could make use of the items that you've listed here. Not just Invoker. I'm thinking of several builds that cover several classes.

My question to you: how would you be affected negatively if those changes were made to those items?

11/22/2017 09:48 AMPosted by Landy
so that Invoker doesn't become a high roll fishing build just looking for Fire Chains and Orlash.


If you want to offer advice on something I'd suggest in the strongest terms that you play it. To clear the 108 I have on live I was fishing for and got a rift full of Electrified/Fire chains/Mortar around tonnes of Vile Swarms/Maggot Brood/Tusked Bonan/Bogan Trappers, and Dune Stingers. Anything short of that and I wouldn't have made it.

I've already plugged nearly a thousand (1k) keys for a 107,108 clears while fishing 107-110. Now I'm fishing 109/110 and I have a feeling I could easily go over the 1k mark to get either. Point being, its a fishing build at rift levels that Rolands/Hammer/Condemn could handle easily.

Orlash was exactly the RG that I downed for that 108. I'm looking for Orlash, Hamlin or Sax otw unless I have a minute twenty seconds I'm not killing the RG in time.

Perhaps you should actually try playing the set before offering so much advice. Just an obervation but after nearly two years on the set I can tell when someone with little actual pushing experience or experience at all decides to post some of the oft herd remarks you're making now regarding the set.

I'm not looking for blind echo chamber agreement, but baseless or unfounded/uninformed opinions given by someone with little to no experience with the specific subject at hand are somewhat annoying because I've been dealing with them for the entire time this set has been in game. Those sorts of things aren't productive in the slightest.

You never really see anyone post about it, but the moment someone does or I do there always seem to be several people who take issue with it being moved out of the third tier of sets this class has to push with.

So overall, how would you be affected negatively if some of or all the changes I suggested were implemented?
11/22/2017 09:10 AMPosted by darkdill
As for using Hack in your cube, no, Blood Brother is better.


If you need toughness yes, if you need damage and are willing to fish for the right rift no, it isn't. Especially when you hit 5x a second.
I have very little experience with Invoker. The 6-piece bonus is not a fun bonus for me. The way this game is optimized means the 6-piece bonus is just... dead on arrival imo. I mean, ya, you can keep buffing it to the point it's good. But doing damage to only one enemy kills you. Much more efficient to open the build up.

Look at Shadow Impale for instance. It was a very mediocre build until they added that one Quiver. This opened up the build to damage more targets as well as take advantage of Area Damage more by doing so.

So things I look at:

I would love for the Omnislash belt to become utilized in a pure Invoker build. This means letting the 6-piece damage all enemies it hits. Let Area Damage work with the build as well through the 6-piece bonus.

After that, a couple of things I definitely agree with jay on are:

- Justice Lantern needs a buff. This would help all Crusader builds ideally.

- Increase the default Thorns range on Invoker pieces. Like... double them maybe?
11/22/2017 01:23 PMPosted by jay
To be clear I don't expect all that to show up in one patch
I know. I was just saying I don't think the build needs more than your first two bullets and a little balancing past that.
The best progression mobs in the game have the biggest hit point pools and most of them fall under the affix of PS that covers beasts. You'd actually need that effect to be able to kill them at the same time as the elite you're targeting that's the reason the set is lagging behind atm.
I don't get how this is relevant. This new Invoker that we're dreaming up is not going to function the same way. You'd have area damage proc'ing on 6pc and no Pigsticker.
It doesn't scale with Conduit well at all because there are no general multipliers for the set (outside the PS affix or Furnace-both work) and no CHC/CHD to scale off of.
That's not how Conduits work. Conduit damage scales based on GR tier, that's it. Not on sheet damage or anything else. The only class that scales with Conduit is Necro with Frailty because it has an execute ability.
My question to you: how would you be affected negatively if those changes were made to those items?
I wasn't suggesting those changes shouldn't be made. I'm suggesting they don't need to be made for the purpose of fixing Invoker.
11/22/2017 01:23 PMPosted by jay
Perhaps you should actually try playing the set before offering so much advice
Not only have I not given advice at all, but all I've done is share my opinion on what I don't think works well with Invoker and what I would like to change. If you require people to have as much experience as you to contribute to the discussion, then you'll be talking by yourself, because nobody does.

Instead of telling me to shut up because I haven't logged as many hours on Invoker, how about you telling me instead why you think it's better for Invoker to be as fishy as it currently is?

For the record, I'm not against Invoker being a tier 1 build. I've only offered ideas on fixing the build without regard to nerfs or buffs.
11/22/2017 01:48 PMPosted by Jako
I have very little experience with Invoker. The 6-piece bonus is not a fun bonus for me. The way this game is optimized means the 6-piece bonus is just... dead on arrival imo. I mean, ya, you can keep buffing it to the point it's good. But doing damage to only one enemy kills you. Much more efficient to open the build up.

Look at Shadow Impale for instance. It was a very mediocre build until they added that one Quiver. This opened up the build to damage more targets as well as take advantage of Area Damage more by doing so.

So things I look at:

I would love for the Omnislash belt to become utilized in a pure Invoker build. This means letting the 6-piece damage all enemies it hits. Let Area Damage work with the build as well through the 6-piece bonus.

After that, a couple of things I definitely agree with jay on are:

- Justice Lantern needs a buff. This would help all Crusader builds ideally.

- Increase the default Thorns range on Invoker pieces. Like... double them maybe?


Would also let use slash in the build, which currently we cannot do, thanks buddy I totally forgot about that belt.

Landy there's only one thing I want to address in your post; because everything else you wrote is contradicted by yourself in your previous post:

11/22/2017 03:31 PMPosted by Landy
Instead of telling me to shut up because I haven't logged as many hours on Invoker, how about you telling me instead why you think it's better for Invoker to be as fishy as it currently is?


First of all I never said shut up or anything like that. I said that I can tell when someone has little/no experience with the set and I asked you to play it to get that experience. Don't put words in my mouth. Period.

As for the amount of experience I have vs others, that is what it is because I like the set but others are playing/picking it up as well. The people that offer feedback on the sets hangups shall we say usually come back with the same general feedback I have about those hangups after a fraction of the hours I put into the set. Which is why I make the suggestions that I do.

What experience do you have with the set? It's a simple question, I'm not trying to offend you I'm actually curious.
I have a lot of experience with Invoker pre 2.6.1. My high was in the low 90s without extreme fishing.

I didn't contradict myself. You should re-read my initial post again, this time remembering that we are not discussing how to make Invoker competitive. After fixing the build, balance changes are assumed to ensure competitiveness. I wasn't condoning placing Invoker in the dumpster because I didn't think all your buffs were necessary to fix Invoker. Your lecture was a non-sequitur and telling of the atmosphere you're cultivating here.

I would like Invoker to stay as a ST build, so the 6pc stays high and you get area damage to help with trash. If you want more AoE clear, you can put thorns skills on your bar which will do relatively significant damage after the multiplicative 2pc change and some balancing. If you want the 6pc to attack in an aoe, then your 6pc will go down to compensate, which is fine. That makes the build an AoE clearing build like Condemn and WW, and I don't like that direction for the build.

I would also like Invoker to be more consistent and less reliant on fishing as it currently is. If you also want the build to remain extremely reliant on mobtype, affixes and boss, then we disagree on what we want for the build.
The build having to rely on stacks from the 2-piece combined with a very weak AoE 6-piece bonus attack means the build will stay fishtacular. You just can't clear the GR fast enough that way without luck. And then your Thorns damage drops too low on a single target RG.
11/23/2017 10:49 AMPosted by Jako
The build having to rely on stacks from the 2-piece combined with a very weak AoE 6-piece bonus attack means the build will stay fishtacular. You just can't clear the GR fast enough that way without luck. And then your Thorns damage drops too low on a single target RG.


True, when you put those two factors together it creates that exact situation.

For a guy who doesn't like the set you sure seem to have a firm grasp on the mechanics, although that shouldn't surprise me.

This is one of those areas where I'd like to see the development team step in and make the decision for us, in regards to how the 2pc bonus works. They could make it static which would lower the need for fishing certain mobs/affixes and that would also be a real benefit to single target situations, but I'm not entirely sure that's the answer. Just because it would lower the amount of interaction the set has with a rift however using AA to reset CD's may be enough interaction.
11/23/2017 10:49 AMPosted by Jako
The build having to rely on stacks from the 2-piece combined with a very weak AoE 6-piece bonus attack means the build will stay fishtacular. You just can't clear the GR fast enough that way without luck. And then your Thorns damage drops too low on a single target RG.


The build will always be fishy to a degree. All builds are. However, it would be possible to improve Invoker's consistency if there was less synergy with very specific mobs, affixes, and RG.

That would be an improvement to what is one of Invoker's most glaring issues in my opinion.
11/23/2017 09:46 AMPosted by Landy
I would like Invoker to stay as a ST build, so the 6pc stays high and you get area damage to help with trash.


There would be a way to make us both happy I think, perhaps several. Bane of the Stricken would already do that for me,preserve the single target nature of the build. @ 2%/per strike and hitting 5x/second each second that I attack something it takes 10% more damage. It doesn't sound like much but it makes a huge difference when you're in the 105+ range.

What I'd propose to keep the single target nature of the build is to have stricken stack from the punish ticks and the 6pc bonus damage of thorns, so that essentially it double stacks. That's one idea, I'm not married to it. However to keep the conversation productive I'd ask that if you don't like it avoid hyperbole about it being too strong etc. The barb forums are really good at that sort of thing this forum...not so much.

11/23/2017 02:10 PMPosted by Landy
All builds are. However, it would be possible to improve Invoker's consistency if there was less synergy with very specific mobs, affixes, and RG.


How would we go about improving consistency while breaking synergies, that sort of thing has been tired over the course of several ptr's with this set and has not been successful to say the absolute least. That isn't a prelude to some sort of flaming I'm just curious because your thought here is only partially filled in.

Keep in mind that synergy was created because of block nerfs, which ties into the mechanics of the 2 set and managing the stacks. If block chance goes up, it allows for more stacks and more cdr, which are some of the reasons people run Bloodbrother in cube.

11/23/2017 02:10 PMPosted by Landy
That would be an improvement to what is one of Invoker's most glaring issues in my opinion.


Needing certain mobs is an issue, but if we pull back and look at other sets this class has or other class sets they all have strengths/weaknesses when fighting in certain maps with certain mob types. As you pointed out, and that's in line with how the game is designed which I don't have a problem with. What is a problem is that this set is forced into a much higher degree of fishing earlier than other sets, which we all seem to agree on.

The issue that goes hand in hand with that though is the AOE problem, as Jako and myself and most if not all the Invoker community are pointing out. Making the 6pc trigger AD/2pc on different multiplier would greatly help there and I'd like to see those two changes on PTR with nothing else done to the set to get an idea of what it looks like.

11/23/2017 09:46 AMPosted by Landy
I have a lot of experience with Invoker pre 2.6.1. My high was in the low 90s without extreme fishing.


https://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/landy-1814/CasualLandy/70991934

I take it there is an error here, please provide a SS of the setup you used to get that 90 from in game to clear up the confusion.

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