Invoker's flaws, and some ideas to fix it

Crusader
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12/22/2017 07:52 PMPosted by Jako
So I've been thinking about some buffs I would like to see for Invoker, which might make it a bit more enticing for me to play:

Thorns (2): 300% per stack, stacks cap at 10, last 5 seconds
- You'll note this is a slight nerf when capped on stacks, 25 * 140 vs 10 * 300, however, keep reading!

Slash (Carve): Your Thorns damage area of effect is increased by 1 yard for each enemy hit, stacking up to 10 yards.
- This stacks with Thorns (2), meaning you can now get 25 yard radius.

Thorns (6): The attack speed of Punish and Slash are increased by 50% and deal 5400% of your Thorns damage.
- No longer limited to the first enemy. This brings a very underused item in Omnislash into play in my opinion. Creates an interesting gearing choice in my opinion as well: Omnislash vs. Belt of the Trove.

Numbers would need to be tweaked as necessary of course. But that's the general idea I would like to see


Good ideas, I've had the same thoughts about the stack as well. Perhaps buffing the attack speed for punish more as well. Thats a personal preference, I've always liked tis set with jacked up APS, its why I started using Fanat.over a year ago.

Thaks very much for posting the numbers!
Another good idea is having a stack of thorns last a bit longer before they tail off so you can get them up higher with lower numbers of enemies. The potential power of invokers is super high, but you can never get up to it with certain enemies.
01/03/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Gorgatron123
Another good idea is having a stack of thorns last a bit longer before they tail off so you can get them up higher with lower numbers of enemies.


This one has been suggested several times, and it is a good idea as the 'single target' build actually suffers in true single target situations from lack of stacks of the 2pc. At that point it's ultra high IAS(relative to this class) or bust because you're relying on scaling damage from Stricken/COE moreso than the actual set and supporting items or skills for damage.
Just did some invoker runs and barely made GR95 with godly gears (most primals).

Simply put: Trash is the problem. To kill elites, I need to kill the trash blocking the elites one at a time. We badly need AOE!!!

Im sick of doing condemn sader... need some other "more interesting" builds please...
Purely curious, whats the current highest clear with invoker set?
02/16/2018 03:15 PMPosted by Astig
Just did some invoker runs and barely made GR95 with godly gears (most primals).

Simply put: Trash is the problem. To kill elites, I need to kill the trash blocking the elites one at a time. We badly need AOE!!!

Im sick of doing condemn sader... need some other "more interesting" builds please...


You do not have to do that. Romano told us a trick: If you are surrounded by trash you just have to attack with punish and hover the mouse pointer over the elite. It will be punished with full damage. I usually combine this with force stand still.
This trick helped me to clear grift 95 with not so good gear.
Why not try pig sticker and tyreals armor. i have been doing this lately also cube the aquilas armor. It seems to clear trash much faster. You just need to find a 20% Im stuck with a 14%.

The furthest i have pushed was 85. but i beat it very easily and no deaths

Also is Coe a must? the physical rotation takes a while and i thought it would be better to constantly have the Sanguinary Vambracers on.
02/16/2018 10:07 PMPosted by Zetton
Purely curious, whats the current highest clear with invoker set?


112ish on EU, possibly a few levels higher in Asia. It's well behind Akkhan builds. A buff to white trash damage output would help tremendously.
Question re 2pc and 6pc.

Is the 6pc bonus a separate multiplier to 2pc?

ie, if I have 10 2pc stacks gaining 1400% increased thorn, will sader be doing 1500% x 5500% to the first target?
Yes.
Thanks!
02/17/2018 06:12 PMPosted by Kikaha
Yes.

Thanks!

02/17/2018 06:10 AMPosted by Ranluf
Why not try pig sticker and tyreals armor. i have been doing this lately also cube the aquilas armor. It seems to clear trash much faster. You just need to find a 20% Im stuck with a 14%.

Hmm... I have never considered Tyreal's Armor for the +20% vs Demons. And with Pig Sticker, that should complete vs Human,s Beast and Demons!

Will keep an eye for Tyreal's Armor should one drop. Will definitely try that out!
THANKS!

How does Sanguinary Bracer and Votayas shield work with Invoker? Are they even worth using?
The fix for the Invoker is super easy: make 6 piece trigger area damage. There was absolutely no reason to cut it out initially.
02/20/2018 03:59 AMPosted by Romano
The fix for the Invoker is super easy: make 6 piece trigger area damage. There was absolutely no reason to cut it out initially.


This would fix ONE of the problems but ignores the rest which are imo more relevant:
- extremely bad scaling at higher levels
- bad item support
- bad stack management
- bad skill support
If you fix these single target would be not taht much of a problem.
02/20/2018 03:59 AMPosted by Romano
The fix for the Invoker is super easy: make 6 piece trigger area damage. There was absolutely no reason to cut it out initially.


They did it to purposefully cripple the build, among other changes. The set used to have far more thorns value on the secondaries.

02/20/2018 07:06 AMPosted by CCA3
- extremely bad scaling at higher levels


Additive damage is the reason for this. The damage was changed to additive to cripple the set initially.

02/20/2018 07:06 AMPosted by CCA3
- bad item support


No question about this the item support is awful. Least amount of supporting items of any sader build. Not to mention the alterations to Vo'Toyas Spiker/Hack/Area damage which have really hurt the build.

02/20/2018 07:06 AMPosted by CCA3
- bad stack management


The changes/nerfs and mechanic itself are dated.

02/20/2018 07:06 AMPosted by CCA3
- bad skill support


Only set in the game you can't use Skill rolls on gear for; not to mention the fact that only two crusader skills actually do thorns damage.

All that being said, making the 6pc trigger AD or having the 6pc bonus be affected by the two piece (6k thonrs hits everything not only one target) would be a big improvement over what we currently have. Big picture it wouldn't compete with Akkhan or Rolands or Seeker. Those sets have far more supporting items and normalized interactions with stats/multipliers.

Here's the main issue; the development team took many many steps to intentionally cripple the set when it was released and in the following two patches. Many of those philosophies/decisions carried over the only thing the team did was to buff the numbers on the 2/6pc.

TL;DR gimped set working as intended. I'm getting close to being finished with this game because of the slow balancing/adjustments and force gimping. This set among several others has had it's development hampered by developers and community members in ptr threads. If the development team wishes to cater to mentally unbalanced or mentally incompetent like they do in WoW then I have no reason to actually play this game anymore.

Catering to the groups I just mentioned is part of the reason most classes get stuck with one push set and several trash tier sets with a slight sprinkle of farming potential.
Saders get Invoker for S13.

It is a shame Invoker is not touched to make it fun... SIGH!

OH WELL! Condemn Sader it is again!
One specific supporting item for the set (Vo'Toya's) is a slap in the face for a set that's been out for nearly two years.

Devs, itemization please. Also we need some skill runes converted to thorns so we can experiment with gear diversity, I'd love to use focus/restraint.

Block mechanics need to be un nerfed as well. Let Crusaders block everything again.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20762066862

Made a post in general, hopefully the next patch is a balance patch and we can get some love for the set.
02/23/2018 06:54 AMPosted by jay
Made a post in general, hopefully the next patch is a balance patch and we can get some love for the set.


I hope this arrives really soon. I mean, do we need to play Condom sader for another season again?
I may be wrong, but I find invoker to be best just skipping trash or clearing it selectively, and just swiftmount steed charging (endurance) from elite to elite. I also plan on removing bombardment from my bar, as it's rather useless damage wise, in favor of what, I don't know yet. Maybe condemn vacuum. Maybe provoke. Maybe something weird. Obviously using coe soon as I get one. Also, how viable is stormshield? I thought of it as a stopgap to akarat awakening or something, but it seems pretty good in its own right, and no one uses it. With eye of etlitch it's 30% reduction on melee and ranged damage, which is not insignificant. Anyway seems the best style to me is just using invoker as an elite hunter build. Trying to clear trash unless it's mega grouped up is a waste of time which I can only imagine gets worse the higher you go.
I currently have barrel of spikes on my bar, about to go back to provoke / hit me for more cdr.

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