Make D4 & Forget about D3 = Mistake

Games & Technology
1 2 3 19 Next
I don't like the attitude make D4 and forget about D3 that many of you fellow forumers share. I believe D3 could be saved and build upon in the future years. If some day D4 comes, good. But in the meantime reading such comments in every thread is of no help to anyone. D3 has a great combat system and could be a lot of fun for a long time with little changes in the right direction. I have shared my views how to do that many times. You can share yours in this thread on how to make D3 a better and more played game, while keeping in mind that it is in a maintenance mode and no new content in the form of expansion is coming.

#letssaveD3
09/10/2016 05:12 AMPosted by Skelos
Paragon levels (aka mainstat after P800) destroyed the game in many aspects:
- Public games grouping
- Competition
- Value of items
- Progression based on skill not mainstat

The only positive thing paragon creates is an illusory sense of progression. And I say illusory, because the only real progression in a game like Diablo is when you can compare your own progression to something else. And paragon destroys that too. As you said it would be good if people could start mid season and compare their progress to others without taking in account paragon. We have no such option. A large portion of the player base skips the whole season after acquiring the stash tab, because you can't play 2-3 hours a day and have a fair competition. You can't play solo and have a fair competition. You must group, play the meta and farm 24/7 paragon.
02/17/2017 03:37 AMPosted by Skelos
The current cap of 10k paragon (practically infinite leveling) is ok for non-season, because there at some point the players would have found all the items they need and what is left for them is to grind XP.

At season however uncapped main stat is a huge trouble creating the following problems:
- GRs are the only viable end game
- Farming for XP is the only viable approach
- Public games grouping suffer
- Classes diversity in multiplayer is zero
- Players follow the META instead the fun

While all of the above is not a problem for non-season, because the nature of non-season is to push infinity (since you are not time limited), which ultimately boils down to GRs, farming XP and META, it is a huge turn off for seasons, because:
- Seasons are time limited
- Seasonal gameplay experience stays absolutely the same as the non-seasonal

A seasonal main stat cap would give the seasonal players the freedom to choose between farming items in Rifts or XP in GRs. The META won't be necessary and we would have a totally different experience, a lot more fun than the current.
02/10/2017 04:36 AMPosted by Skelos
Why players need an adequate seasonal main stat cap:
An adequate seasonal main stat cap will make the seasonal player experience a lot different than the non-seasonal. These are the main things that will change if there is an adequate seasonal main stat cap:

- Players will be free to choose how they want to progress and acquire mainstat: Right now in both season and non-season the game revolves around farming paragon in GRs. When the primals drop they won't change this. Players will continue to farm exclusively GRs. If there is an adequate seasonal main stat cap players will be free to choose if they want to grind for paragons (GRs) or for primals (rifts/bounties).

- Public games grouping will improve tremendously: An adequate seasonal main stat cap will bring back the fun to multiplayer. Players will group not only to farm main stat, but simply for the sake of grouping - to share your gameplay experience with someone else.

- The meta won't rule multiplayer any more: If you look at the class statistics in some ladder websites, you will notice that there is no class diversity in multiplayer. Only specific classes are being played and this leads to dead classes in multiplayer. An adequate seasonal main stat cap will allow the players to not play the meta if they don't want to.
10/19/2017 04:29 AMPosted by Skelos
They need to cap only the Seasonal mode. It would work like this:

1) Make Seasons last for 1 month
2) Cap the seasonal main stat and gem levels
3) Make seasonal Rifts, GRs and bounties equal in rewards
4) Players on Seasons start grouping to have fun
5) While having fun and playing what they prefer the players reach the seasonal main stat cap and maximum gem levels without having to play a META
6) Those who want to compete at the end of the Season resort to a META for pushing, the other continue to have fun and try different specs/builds

What the above achieves is giving a completely new meaning to Seasons. I have repeated this million times on all Diablo forums: Season and NS in D3 pretty much overlap at everything. The above changes that and makes the Seasons a place for fun, while NS stays a place for grind.
01/09/2018 04:21 AMPosted by Skelos
I think the only way to make D3 playable long term is to make it as competitive as possible. This means:

1) Improve Challenge Rifts - tier progression; all classes; meaningful builds; permanent LBs; replays; more rewards

2) Re-design Seasons - make these a 1 month fixed duration; put paragon, main stat and gems cap; improve Rifts and Bounties rewards on the level of GRs rewards

3) Introduce timed leagues - 50/100/500 hour leagues restarting on 3 months basis will be the game for those who want to measure their efficiency
More old posts. It's like a story.
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 are missing
;-)
OP not really a software developer eh? D3 is now more than 6 years old probably closer to 8 or 9 if you add in development prior to it even going beta. Software and hardware change a lot in 10 years. The correct decision from a development standpoint is to maintain D3 (minor bug fixes, maybe new cosmetics) but no content updates or tweaks to mechanics that can have unforeseen consequences.

I'm confident that D4 development is already underway. All those of us that are D3 fans can hope for is that the aspects we like about D3 will make it into D4 and some of the issues we have with D3 will not. But asking Blizz to continue to "improve" D3 is just pointless. We may not like it but that is the reality of game development.
Not to mention view points.

Person A might enjoy certain aspects of the game that Person B doesn't. And so on.

Hate to say this, but Blizzard isn't going to please everyone. But it never fails that everyone who has a gripe about something thinks the game should change because they don't like something.

Granted, there are things that are universally hated or wanted changed by a majority as well.

I feel the game is in a good spot at the moment. It is also dated and probably running mostly in maintenance mode right now. I don't doubt there will be little tweaks and changes still to come, but I can't see huge game impacts at this point. At most what, another character added to the mix?

Anyway.

Love it or hate it, play it or don't. That's pretty much it at this point.

Game on.
01/10/2018 07:39 AMPosted by JDog914
D3 is now more than 6 years old probably closer to 8 or 9
D3 engine is more than 10 years old, dude. This has absolutely no relation to whether it is good atm or no. Most gamers agree that the D3 engine is one of the best aRPG related. If you expect D4 to be on a completely new level, well, you have very high expectations...
Not Make D4 and implement all Skels proposed changes to D3 = EVEN larger mistake. Train wreck really.

It comes down to money at this point. commit resources to a future potential massive revenue stream or try to squeeze a few more bucks out of a pretty dead mule. If they did not select the obvious path here the company would be one of the worst (in regards to vision and profit). Because Blizzard is so successful we know the truth and which way they will go.

One last point - If they could make small changes or add content to D3 with out so much backlash from this community i'm positive they would be more active at this point. From what I have seen, every time they try to add ANYTHING the community is divided, the players opposed to the changes are the loudest who come in here and on other social media and complain to no end. We did it with Sader, we did it with Necro, we complained about 2.6.1. We complained about the expansion. We are a thankless bunch and I really can't blame them one bit for giving up at this point.
Do you think this game can be saved? Do you think D4 would somehow be different from D3?

Blizzard has done one thing historically with Diablo 3...
1) put out a game.
2) every patch just inflate numbers without new content.
3) add casino style randomness to drops to fake content.
4) disregard any opinion that disagrees.

Considering they've doubled down on this every single patch, GR's are here to stay as the only content. There is no way in hell they will fix D3, or even make D4 any different. Same people = same results.
01/10/2018 01:16 PMPosted by Midnight
Do you think D4 would somehow be different from D3?
It will be worse, for sure. I don't expect it to be a top-down view perspective and I don't expect a better combat system.

#letssaveD3
01/10/2018 01:16 PMPosted by Midnight
Do you think this game can be saved? Do you think D4 would somehow be different from D3?

Blizzard has done one thing historically with Diablo 3...
1) put out a game.
2) every patch just inflate numbers without new content.
3) add casino style randomness to drops to fake content.
4) disregard any opinion that disagrees.

Considering they've doubled down on this every single patch, GR's are here to stay as the only content. There is no way in hell they will fix D3, or even make D4 any different. Same people = same results.

True.

I'd still buy it.
It's 2018. Game was released in 2012 and you still have hopes that D3 can be saved?

You have to face reality and realize that D3 will pretty much stay the same way it is now with never ending patches that increase your dps so you can do higher grifts.
Of course D3 can be saved. Just look at some fan made patch notes at reddit from 3 days ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/7osyea/things_that_262_should_have/

People love D3. The game just need some little push in the right direction.

#letssaveD3
I dunno, I think if Diablo 4 comes out I will hold off on buying it until they release a demo. D3 has been fun in a few ways, but it moved away from what I wanted from the Diablo franchise with the last several patches bloating into power creep, trivializing the difficulty and demolishing build variety. Diablo nor Diablo 2 had patches that had this kind of effect or such a wild swing in how the game functioned. You know things were done wrong when your playerbase feels they need to use a real money auction house to acquire gear instead of playing. You know you did things wrong when you need to use a set for a 'non-set build' to get damage that is somewhat, almost close to a full set build. They have tried to repair this damage done to the game, but how? By boosting the power of other equipment, and in some cases that equipment could be used in set builds which just power creeped those as well. Numbers are blown out of proportion, the majority of available stats are made to be irrelevant and instead of having a final, truly challenging difficulty they throw us into an 'infinite time trial' and trivialize the rest of the game that isn't confined in that time trial.

the playerbase is completely divided on what they want and how it should be done to the point that any changes made will be met with vocal opposition. This fact was seen when Primals were being developed and again when Patch 2.6.1 was being developed. I'd love to see Diablo 3 be saved, but I don't think that's possible any more. If they make changes to Diablo 3 to suit the old school playerbase, the new generation that is interested in leaderboards and plowing through the game and getting as much loot as possible for as little effort as possible will get upset. If they continue to enhance D3 along the "GR is the only thing that matters' mentality, the old school players that are still around will just get more upset and leave.

Stopping all support on Diablo 3 and moving on to Diablo 4 will just leave a lot of players jaded and unwilling to buy the next one, yet to repair Diablo 3 seems like an impossible task given the path it is currently on without heavy alterations and risking losing a hefty chunk of the remaining playerbase by going all the way to one side or another.
Zedd nails it. Wish i could give you 5 likes for that.
01/10/2018 01:47 PMPosted by Prology
Zedd nails it. Wish i could give you 5 likes for that.
He made pretty good sum-up of the situation, but there IS a solution.

@Zeddicuus: In order to satisfy both groups of players you simply need 2 modes. Season and NS in D3 could do the work quite well. I explain this in the post below.

11/30/2016 04:22 AMPosted by Skelos
Here is a copy of my post on DF in response to this remark:
An ARPG should not be about XP / hour but about LOOT and when a game makes XP the main focus for power then it means this game's loot sucks. Paragon is just collateral damage to what the main problem was from the start in this game, CRAP LOOT.

The problem from design pov is really a big one. It's not just the loot. I'll try to explain the whole maze circle and what the possible solutions look like.
- it needs an uncapped system of progression to keep players going
- it needs that progress to equate to something that players find worthwhile
- it needs to allow for the gap between lower and high paragon players to not isolate each group from playing with each other properly. And by lower I mean sub P1500
- it needs to be more interesting than paragons... honestly, grinding away for the ability to allocate a point onto your main stat is as boring as gaming gets

The above quote summes up nicely the most important parts, but to understand why the problem is even bigger than that, one needs to put himself in the developer shoes and look what the consequences of a single decision for the whole player base are.

The main aRPG philosophy: A player adopts a character role and progresses with this character through an adventure. When the adventure is finite (no monthly content added) the thing that's left to be infinite is the character progression. The devs then have a few choices how to design the character progression depending on what will make their main player base to put the most hours into the game:

1) Long lasting loot hunt like this in D2 for all players

2) Fast loot hunt combined with progression system like the paragon for the dedicated players

3) Fast loot hunt combined with more tiered item progression (beyond ancient) for the dedicated players

In case 1) the major problem is that when we have BoA items the long lasting loot hunt turns into long lasting nightmare when you need a specific item and you are unlucky with the drops. Let's kill BoA then and re-introduce the AH and trading like this in D2. No problem at all except we bring 3rd party item trading sites and botting back. Also, not all players enjoy the trading game, but let's say they are a small portion of the player base. So we need to totally kill botting for a case 1) scenario to work. Otherwise everyone will start botting sooner or later in order to accumulate and maximize their wealth.

Case 2) is the current state, where the paragon system presents a reward that is big enough for the dedicated players to go after and not something a casual player is interested in. The casual player is happy to get his set and see how it works. Everything looks good, except that the paragon system itself is predictable - you know the reward you are after - thus many players consider it boring. Also, the reward curve (the main stat ratio per level after P800) introduces major problems for public grouping. Let's say the devs go against their philosophy of reducing the current power of the characters and fix the curve. Even then the reward itself will still be the same boring main stat, which has nothing to do with LOOT and it's randomness, epicness, and the feeling of uniqueness it creates. But what if we tweak the paragon system and make it like the synergy system in D2? It won't be boring anymore since the player will have a choice where/what/how to tweak/buff his skills. Fine, but what about the casual player who wants the same? He will have to grind hard for the points to make the new OP build and he isn't after that type of game. So, this is a "NO" again. Remember that the casual player is always the one needing more attention, since the dedicated players are the smaller portion of the player base.

This bring us to case 3). More item tiers (beyond ancient) that will make the loot harder to get for the dedicated players and will reduce the importance of paragon. But hey, this bring us to case 1) again. It's a circle - there is no way around it if we don't split the community in two and present different modes. But this is against the devs philosophy again - Wyatt said this at this years Blizzcon - no mode with item drop chances like D2 is coming, although he said he have to think of a way to make the dedicated players more satisfied.

So is there any way this problem can be solved and all groups of players be happy and enjoy the game?

No, there is no optimal solution based on the current devs philosophies. We have to sacrifice something in order to escape from the maze. But the good thing is the sacrifice itself does not need to be big, because there are already these features called seasons and non-seasons in Diablo 3. What could be done is the following:

- Introduce a new item tier - let's call it sacred - make it so that one sacred item has the value of 1k paragon and fixed drop chance of 1/50 of the current ancient items at GR100

- Change the paragon system completely without hurting the high paragon players, just make it diverse so the people have choices

- Cap the power of items/gems/paragons on seasons - this is important in order to have meaningful public games grouping on seasons

- Use the whole power of items/gems/paragons on non-seasons - this will be the place for the most dedicated players, those 24/7 grinders that want to acquire every sacred item, play in a dedicated group to maximize their chances and well, one ban wave per 3 months should be enough to discourage them from botting

What have we sacrificed? Trading (at least for now). This means the loot hunt will be very hard for the dedicated players, but if someday there is 64-bit client only, Blizzard could bring trading back.

Would something like this be done? I doubt it. This has to be done with a long term vision for the game in order to be effective. Power creep should be minimal in order the dedicated players to know that the items they get will be used for years to come. I mean something like this is not impossible, but if D4 is in the works it doesn't make much sense, except if D4 is a deviation from the classical aRPG genre. Then it would make sense, because the engine of D3 is good enough to be used for a very long time. And if the devs take the right decisions this game could be fixed and played for many years to come.
I dislike the idea of gear tiers, at least to a degree. It worked great for Normal/Magic/Rare gear but when it comes to the same legendary/set pieces appearing in multiple tiers is where I start to dislike the setup D3 has. Why create multiple versions of the same item that are more powerful than the previous tier version? As it is with Primal, if you have an item drop that you desire, it's just disappointment if it's not in the next tier for you. We see posts about this all the time, how players are claiming they're discouraged because they've been playing for X hours but haven't found a primal they want yet. Legendary gear should be gear you find and KNOW this is a great piece of gear in the right build, no matter what tier it is from.

I think a variety in gear would go further as it would promote trying new builds. I feel Diablo 2 did this right, where a legendary with a specific name was only found in a specific tier(Magefist was a Normal tier only, but Vampire Gaze was Exceptional Tier only) but the stat affixes and legendary bonus could still be desirable enough to warrant using it.
01/10/2018 02:18 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
Why create multiple versions of the same item that are more powerful than the previous tier version?
I don't like item tiers too, but with the current D3 itemization there is nothing left as an option regarding the players who want longer item hunt.
That's the problem with making the drop rates so frequent on gear, it really killed the loot hunt. I remember spending MONTHS trying to get a hold of Silks of the Victor in Diablo 2 and had no qualms with it.

With D3's current droprates, even adding more legendary gear makes it only a matter of a week or so before most people have the bulk of them. The drop rate increases they implemented in D3 were truly a horrible decision.
01/10/2018 02:49 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
With D3's current droprates, even adding more legendary gear makes it only a matter of a week or so before most people have the bulk of them. The drop rate increases they implemented in D3 were truly a horrible decision.
I agree, for players like us who enjoy the loot hunt, it was.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum