We Need World of Diablo

General Discussion
12/22/2017 06:09 PMPosted by Saidosha
It's almost as if there are flaws in the evolution of MMOs that make it less about multiplayer and more how much time you're willing to bang your head against the wall because other people are stupid or don't want to do what you're looking to do when you want to do it.


I'd argue that this has decreased since the days of Ultima Online and EverQuest. I mean, in order to get anywhere at all in EQ you pretty much had to be hardcore. Going from level 59 to 60 (when 60 was the maximum) took around ~150 hours in the best experience grinding spot in the game. With a group.

There is far less head-banging these days.

It's fun to bemoan actual social interaction and the like, but the reality is most people playing are just looking out for themselves and what they can get out of a situation. They don't want to be your friend the vast majority of the time. They want you to work for them silently and efficiently.


Sure, that's why the random queue system is good as far as it goes, but if you're going for the upper echelons then you need to find yourself some like-minded people.

Imagine a D3 where you're only able to rift, do bounties, or whatever, after waiting 30+ minutes in a queue, just for the game to start and someone bails because they don't like the class composition and the process starts all over again because things are impossible a man short or they were a vital role.


30+ minutes in a queue is an exaggeration at this point, at least for WoW (I'm not at the point in FF14 where I can really say one way or the other). At max level the wait time for dungeons is usually below 10, and that's as a dps. The older raids might occasionally be that long just because there's a lot of them now, but not the newer ones. And it's not like there isn't anything to do while you're in the queue.

There really isn't any reason for someone to leave due to class composition. The queues have clearly defined roles, and you're never put into an instance without those roles fulfilled by someone. Raids will always have 2 tanks and 7 (I think) healers, and dungeons always a tank, a healer and 3 dps. And even if someone does leave.. well, the queue system fills it back up again in short order, and it's often not even necessary to have a full group in the first place for the queued raids or dungeons.

Imagine having to help some troll in your guild that frequently lobs slurs and other idiocy because he's buddies with the leader and going elsewhere puts you in the back of the loot line, if you actually succeed in finding a functional replacement.


The decent guilds that know what they're doing don't really have a "loot line" anymore.

Imagine trying to be a leader, yourself, cobbling together a small guild that's slowly getting things done, only for people to start bailing for the big boys once they meet minimal gear requirements, because haha friendship ain't raking in the phat lewt. Imagine never really being able to make meaningful progress in a timely manner because your work schedule rotates and encounters really aren't favorable to someone who's present a fourth of the time because no amount of skill can offset the hard math gear offers. Imagine having to play a role you hate for months on end because being behind the curve mandates you support those who aren't.


What's your point here, anyway, that multiplayer and/or raiding tends to complicate things? Sure, I'll agree. Which is why I stated that if you just hate multiplayer then MMOs probably aren't the genre you should be looking at when you're thinking about what game to purchase.

I think sports games are horrible, for instance, so guess what games I never buy.

Also, I think they'd change things up a bit if there ever was a Diablo MMO (and I doubt there will be and kinda hope there isn't). It's not like we spent a bunch of time building Barracks and Farms when they adapted Warcraft into an MMO.
Well, let's just say my experience in the genre has encompassed a lot more than just WoW or XIV. Have various games learned from the past? To some degree, sure. Yet, my earlier critique was that the appeal to tradition in endgame basically being "Raid or GTFO" is that they've been stagnating alternative play styles that can be both solo and multiplayer friendly, in part because some people are so deathly afraid that they'd lose people from the raiding pool precisely because they don't have to put up with all the crap.

Another frequent argument against alternative sources for raid quality gear has been, "Well, you don't actually need that stuff for XYZ." When I sit here thinking, you know, maybe they could actually create content for them that further justifies it? This creates the added benefit of people being more readily able to sub into the more traditional raids should other slots be missing bodies for whatever reason.

Really, the notion that casual players are bereft of skill is one of those problems that's been persisting. Sure, some people are gonna derp since no MMO ever really adequately explains things like rotations per class and outside resources may not always be known or readily tangible from the reader/viewer's perspective. And to play off my earlier critique on socializing, it's incredibly rare someone actually wants to teach strangers because everything is just supposed to be known and you're the scum of the earth for daring to enjoy the thought of going into something blind and figuring things out by experience. Imagine if all that awkward "learning the ropes" could be handled on one's own, perhaps via the aid of AI controlled NPCs (or even cultivated alts!). People gain choice.

Really, the whole "massively" aspect is lost when we're still funneled down into smaller groups and separate servers. Sure, some of this is due to hardware, but there comes a point where some seem to be protesting a tad too much, be it for ego purposes or the aforementioned worry of their own fun being compromised even though I never once said raid should never be developed again.
Asheron's Call was my absolute BEST MMO experience.

But the combat was so slow for a skill based real-time combat system.

That culture and community with an updated combat system would utterly absorb my free time if it were to ever come again.
Diablo will NEVER be an MMO, certainly not in a traditional style.

There is no way the next Diablo game will be a top-down, AGAIN. Top down is just too disconnected from the world. There is much more they can do when you are at eye level with your character in the environment - bigger characters, bigger monsters, better storytelling, visuals that actually look good up close as opposed to washed out pixelage, more customization, more interactive elements just to name a few.

There may still be a market for top-down, but Diablo's time as an iso ARPG has now passed. If they try to be loyal to either of the past two games, they will fail again. The correct response is to learn from the mistakes made from D3, and surprise us all with something new, starting from a clean slate. That's exactly what Blizzard is going to do
@OP - How about we need some anti botting solution first before we need another game what then will be bot-dominated anyways ?
12/23/2017 09:42 AMPosted by Shyster

There may still be a market for top-down, but Diablo's time as an iso ARPG has now passed. If they try to be loyal to either of the past two games, they will fail again. The correct response is to learn from the mistakes made from D3, and surprise us all with something new, starting from a clean slate. That's exactly what Blizzard is going to do


That doesn't make much sense. Most of the problems from D3 stem from the fact that D3 isn't loyal to the past games, or to ARPGs in general.

We have D3 in its current state because they tried to surprise us all with something new and a clean slate.
Legion has an insane diablo 3 feel to it, but the factors in it work pretty well in wow, ofc the random lego chance can be annoying if you have alts to grind, but having no duplicates or stat ranges make getting a legendary actually make it useful if its one of your bis, the mythic + dungeon system is exactully what greater rifts are. no loot untill the end you get 1-3 affixes depending on the difficulty of the key and you complete it on time for a upgraded key and if you smash it you get +2 or +3 lvls on it. i like the mythic + system alot, also personal loot made getting loot kinda rng but also made it insanely more casual friendly, you can run an entire raid and get a peice every boss or none at all. while this can be bad if you are unlucky, it is amazing to not have to worry about mount ninjas or people stealing your items to sell to their friends. you can just pug about every raid in legion outside of the hardest difficulty mythic, it was 3 months before i joined a raiding guild in legion and i went though all normal an heroic content with pugs. im just so sick of the endless paragon grinding and bots taking over the leaderboards in diablo an you dont even get anything from the game if you are top lb material. no cosmetics no nothing just here you go you got a spot on lb cya next season were you do it all over again an try to beat out the bots.
I'd like to see MMOs (read: WoW, FFXIV) die down a bit. Sure, it would be nice to see Diablo get the massive treatment required of a AAA MMO. The lore could be interesting, factions could be fun, progression could be cool. Might be neat to be a demon who constantly pushes further into becoming a higher ranking minion of Hell, or an Anakin style Neph, or an Angel of righteousness.

I think I'm just fatigued on the concept of MMOs. If I really felt like playing an MMO...I'd reactivate my WoW account (and every now and then, I do that for a month or two).

Diablo --> Realms of Diablo
Starcraft --> Galaxy of Starcraft

...they all seem like they would end up with those fatigue inducing similarities brought on by "being another MMO." *Maybe* Diablo could give us an MMO with an isometric view and some unique game mechanics. But in the end, it's still an MMO. And so far there's certain characteristics that we immediately think of with an MMO. And that is really tough for me to get excited about after so many years of WoW, EVE Online, and Ultima Online.

I'd be all for some sort of expanded multiplayer in the next iteration of Diablo. I'd even be up for some "MMO-like" PvP ideas (like WSG, AB, or AV from WoW). But I don't want a flat out MMO conversion of Diablo. I have a hard enough time dealing with the idea that we don't yet have a "Warcraft IV" RTS. The idea of "Blizzard can't count to four just like Valve can't count to three" bums me out.

Guess I'd say...I obviously want a new Diablo. I want the isometric ARPG game that Diablo is. I'm excited for Blizzard to consider the "lessons learned" from all the years of Diablo 3 (Auction House didn't work, Loot 2.0 was a great idea, Paragon goods vs bads, etc.). I'd love a larger scale Diablo with more players permitted in multiplayer. I want well thought out classes with solid long term progression, and I enjoy customization options.

But please keep it all within the Diablo style that we've known since the 90s. I don't think we need the full on MMO treatment for killing Mephisto, Baal, Diablo, and the Butterfly\Fairy\OMGWTF chick that killed Cain.
12/20/2017 01:50 PMPosted by Merp
12/20/2017 01:32 PMPosted by Hetchman
I would much, MUCH rather have an open-world first person Diablo game than an MMO. Think Elder Scrolls style.


Until you roll a barb, do a WW, and end up vomiting all over from motion sickness!


OK that made me laugh.
I dont know mmorpgs these days are not just worth my time and effort, I prefer the more casual arpg like diablo hack and slash games, many have suggested this in the past sure it could work but in the end I doubt it will retain some of the deeper older mmo elements that made them more unique and group oriented.

I much rather spend my time with a casual multiplayer game and a ton of amazing sp games that keep things fresh.
I would only play if soullasher is made as an available player class lol
12/22/2017 04:29 PMPosted by Orrion
12/21/2017 07:56 AMPosted by Panerdar
...

Exactly! I like a lot about WoW, hate the raiding and even mandatory grouping to do a dungeon.


So.. you hate multiplayer in a game that pretty much defines the genre with the word "multiplayer" as part of its name.

Boggles my mind, honestly.


Must have missed the part where one of those Ms stood for "Mandatory"...but sure, whatever.

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