Too much grift fishing

General Discussion
I actually like this game a lot but the grifting issue complete and utter bull!@#$. If you really want to push there is only a few maps that you can do it on. You would think 6 years into a game there would be better maps for pushing. I know fishing is what you have to do atm but damn!!
lol, one I had yesterday was real bad. 2 levels of nearly all the exploding poison dogs and fat men with huge density.
Blizzard made a length post about fishing and why they think it's a good, healthy thing for the gameplay. Yes, it's about as ridiculous as it sounds.

(Translation: Whoever wrote the post has never played Diablo III)
Tragic, lol. I feel your pain. Another thing, don't you just love how the waller/jailer epic combo !@#$s you over. LOL. All you can do is laugh and pour another shot of scotch.
Fishing is a direct result of not having a plateau to reach.

If we actually were able to clear the current max GR150, fishing would not even be a thing, and people would play builds that are extremely fun to them.
Grift "fishing" is probably fun for the devs ^^
12/19/2017 09:31 AMPosted by Demonmonger
If we actually were able to clear the current max GR150, fishing would not even be a thing, and people would play builds that are extremely fun to them.

Your argument would apply to T13 if that were the case. But even in T13, I basically play the build that can speedrun through the content the fastest; regardless of fun.
Drop one GR level and you never have to fish.

Fishing is just a natural consequence of reaching your gear and skill cap. If there's no way you can play more effectively, you must rely on RNG to get to the next GR.

If all maps were perfect, which is a naive concept as different builds have different perfect rifts, you would hit your cap 1 GR level later and then need that much more fishing to go up a level.

Fishing isn't required for anything but pushing and LB placement. Fishing for your max GR + 1 is roughly 1 in 2 rifts. This only represents about a 10% variance in GRs, eg 14.5-17 minutes.

Past that you are asking "Why is the MAXIMUM difficulty I can achieve so hard?"

Huh? Makes ya think.
12/19/2017 09:31 AMPosted by Demonmonger
If we actually were able to clear the current max GR150, fishing would not even be a thing, and people would play builds that are extremely fun to them.


The problem I see, Demonmonger, is that if every decent build could blast through GR 150, the current maximum GR, as easily as most builds can destroy T13 now, what would be left to challenge the build? The game would feel so dull if there was no threat of annihilation.

12/19/2017 11:29 AMPosted by nand
Your argument would apply to T13 if that were the case. But even in T13, I basically play the build that can speedrun through the content the fastest; regardless of fun.


Regardless of fun? Sounds to me like you're doing things wrong, but if you're happy with it I guess that's OK. To each their own. This is the issue with the current game setup. Torments are meaningless given how the powercreep has affected the power of the gear involved to the point of making any difficulty trivial save the holy GR. Bleh.
12/19/2017 11:52 AMPosted by Zeddicuus
Regardless of fun? Sounds to me like you're doing things wrong, but if you're happy with it I guess that's OK.

I mean, the fun is in getting the items that enable you to push higher, right? Playing T13 is not, by any stretch of the imagination, what I consider “fun”. It's a mandatory chore that I need to do just so I can play the parts of the game that I actually want to do, like a sort of “fun tax”.

I just try and get through it as fast as possible; or avoid it altogether if I can.

Here's a list of what I enjoy doing:
1. Theorycrafting in general
2. Testing and pinpointing exact item/skill/set mechanics and bugs
3. Playing around with build variations to figure out the strength and weakness of each
4. Trying to min/max builds to squeeze out the last few %
5. Trying to come as close as possible to this ideal, theorycrafted build
6. Learning to play the build optimally (in greater rifts)
7. Seeing the results of my efforts pay off

T13, Bounties and XP farming are not on that list. But they are what I end up spending all of my ingame time doing, because they are the only things that enable me to do the above. I need the gear so I can even try out what I want to try out. I need the paragon levels so I can run extremely min/maxed affix combinations that rely on getting enough paragon levels to compensate for a lack of main stat / vitality on gear. I need the perfect rolls on every item so I can see how much my theorycrafting and simulations match reality.

The game itself is not fun, save for those 0.1% of the time that you're actually challenging yourself in high greater rifts. I could honestly do without the rest.
I can respect that, Nand. I do a lot of the same, but with less focus on GR (I dislike GR, but that's for a different thread) and more on strange and/or obscure builds that can make it through T13 and maximizing their potential.

Best way to play is how you find fun, providing it doesn't have negative impact on others!
12/19/2017 09:31 AMPosted by Demonmonger
Fishing is a direct result of not having a plateau to reach.

If we actually were able to clear the current max GR150, fishing would not even be a thing, and people would play builds that are extremely fun to them.


While I do agree that having a reachable plateau would fix fishing issues, I also think that adding a plateau would add less to the game than what it would be taking away.
The problem I see, Demonmonger, is that if every decent build could blast through GR 150, the current maximum GR, as easily as most builds can destroy T13 now, what would be left to challenge the build? The game would feel so dull if there was no threat of annihilation.


Greater Ubers, Static challenges ala what they had at Blizzcon, honestly, they could have a million things.
It has become quite apparent that the community still posting here has lost contact with what actually is fun with a game.

They use things like:

- But Blizz
- OMG the players would complain
- What else could we do
- etc. etc. etc.....

These are all really lowscale cheap excuses that defend a game that has turned into pure garbage in the recent past.

When one change is suggested, some of you assume that is it.....no forward thinking.....clearly a downfall of this game, hopefully one that does not carry into any future installments.

Bring back the challenge, playing 500+ hours is not the challenge!
Fishing shouldn't even be a thing. Quitting a rift should yield heavy penalty on your current rank, if not outright strike your name from the boards till you actually manage to earn it. RNG should be embraced, not circumvented in order to look for convenient conditions and pretend you can actually deal with a higher level than you are actually able to do so in a consistent manner. I strongly believe if you can't consistently complete a rift in any given level, you simply shouldn't even be ranked there.

Is there any competition out there where quitting isn't punished in some way? When have we seen a sport where a team is able to cherry-pick the easiest opponent to beat while just quitting a match against a particularly tough opponent and still be ranked among the best? I don't know if I'm just weird like that, but I find this backwards as hell.
12/19/2017 02:28 PMPosted by Demonmonger
The problem I see, Demonmonger, is that if every decent build could blast through GR 150, the current maximum GR, as easily as most builds can destroy T13 now, what would be left to challenge the build? The game would feel so dull if there was no threat of annihilation.


Greater Ubers, Static challenges ala what they had at Blizzcon, honestly, they could have a million things.


I like where your thinking is going with this, it can lead to more things to do outside of GR.
12/19/2017 02:36 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Fishing shouldn't even be a thing. Quitting a rift should yield heavy penalty on your current rank, if not outright strike your name from the boards till you actually manage to earn it. RNG should be embraced, not circumvented in order to look for convenient conditions and pretend you can actually deal with a higher level than you are actually able to do so in a consistent manner. I strongly believe if you can't consistently complete a rift in any given level, you simply shouldn't even be ranked there.

Is there any competition out there where quitting isn't punished in some way? When have we seen a sport where a team is able to cherry-pick the easiest opponent to beat while just quitting a match against a particularly tough opponent and still be ranked among the best? I don't know if I'm just weird like that, but I find this backwards as hell.


You forgot one big thing here: Diablo LeaderBoard is PVE based, while you are taking examples of sports situations which have to be compared to PVP situation if you want to make a fair comparation.

So, here, using what happened in those Sports is simply irrelevant, IMO.

In games with a PVP Leaderboard, things are going as you just describe.

If you wan't to compare a PVE Leaderboard to an IRL thing, you should take World records, something like "World record of rubix cube completion" for example, which consist, actually, in trying again and again until everything goes well and you beat the record.

Most of the time, when someone make a record in any situation, he is not able to repeat it in a constant maner. But that's about record, not about consistancy.
12/19/2017 02:36 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Fishing shouldn't even be a thing. Quitting a rift should yield heavy penalty on your current rank, if not outright strike your name from the boards till you actually manage to earn it. RNG should be embraced, not circumvented in order to look for convenient conditions and pretend you can actually deal with a higher level than you are actually able to do so in a consistent manner. I strongly believe if you can't consistently complete a rift in any given level, you simply shouldn't even be ranked there.


I really don't agree with this logic. A successful and fun game is one that rewards its players for playing it. You're basically suggesting that the game start punishing people for attempting to play it. That's not going to go well.

12/19/2017 02:36 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Is there any competition out there where quitting isn't punished in some way? When have we seen a sport where a team is able to cherry-pick the easiest opponent to beat while just quitting a match against a particularly tough opponent and still be ranked among the best? I don't know if I'm just weird like that, but I find this backwards as hell.


That's a bad analogy. Fishing is the equivalent of playing a competitive match event and conceding if the game is unwinnable. That happens fairly often in a lot of competition games without any "penalty" aside from a game loss.

You are proposing that forfeiting a game be penalized by stripping someone of their personal best. Can you think of a single sport where that actually happens?
12/19/2017 02:36 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Fishing shouldn't even be a thing. Quitting a rift should yield heavy penalty on your current rank, if not outright strike your name from the boards till you actually manage to earn it. RNG should be embraced, not circumvented in order to look for convenient conditions and pretend you can actually deal with a higher level than you are actually able to do so in a consistent manner. I strongly believe if you can't consistently complete a rift in any given level, you simply shouldn't even be ranked there.

I actually wouldn't mind this too much, I think. Rift fishing wouldn't be a problem if the leaderboards tracked your ability to consistently clear a rift, rather than only being able to clear one out of 500 tries.

That said, I wouldn't immediately strip your rank just for quitting a rift. That makes no sense. Instead, you should gain and lose “rating” as you successfully clear/fail rifts. Sort of like MMR or Elo in other games, this rating system would reward you for consistency and punish you for inconsistency.

It would probably have to be tried out in practice, but it might lead to a meta where consistency matters more than peak potential; which I think is probably more fun overall in terms of gearing etc.
Fishing would be lessen if:

(i) Harder mobs should give more progress, usually act 5 mobs takes more hits and large monters HP could rival elites HP.
(ii) Progress should also be weighted based on what kind of affixes elite mobs have, e.g. Juggernauts should give more progress since it takes more time to kill.
(iii) Thrash progression is very negligible and should be re-evaluated, right now its a hunt for elites.
(iv) Maps have fixed density and elites, I have encountered maps with only 1-2 elite.
(v) There should be no excessively narrow maps where is near impossible to dodge affixes (ever played in a narrow corridor map with minion, arcane and frozen affixes?).

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