PVP (brawling) might still work after all

Brawling
I know it is a bit early to claim this but I think I found a way around massive PVE scaling in brawling. I am posting this here (in general chat) to revive awareness on PVP (since the brawling forum is almost dead) in hopes that others are willing to try what I am trying.

In short, I have done some testing to determine that an effective PVP build needs at least 100B toughness and probably a 6-piece set bonus and 1M+ sheet DPS. I claim it is possible to build characters with these stats but they require a LOT of dedication in farming the right pieces of equipment, paragon grinding, and augmenting. If I have piqued your interest I have a longer thread discussing the issue here:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20761036431

I have a d3planner build meeting the absurd 1M+ DPS, 100B toughness, 6-piece set bonus requirement for a DH here: https://www.d3planner.com/348460940

I understand that D3 PVP is not for everyone and thus I don't mind any "lol PVP", "brawling is forever dead", or "go play another game for PVP" comments. Those types of comments are fair assessments of the current situation but I am asking to those who are willing to give it another chance.

Thank you for your time reading and best of luck with your D3 endeavors,

Iria
After few test we see there is few limitations to make it work, but is nice to try it, maybe there is a way to reach the balance with no big complications
Honestly dont see how without just scaling damage down massively PvP wouldnt just be a one shot.. It actually wasnt terrible in Vanilla.. required pretty specific gear but it was doable, and I dunno if Id say fun but it was mildly entertaining.
The only way it works is with white items.
01/16/2018 11:10 PMPosted by Darth
Honestly dont see how without just scaling damage down massively PvP wouldnt just be a one shot.. It actually wasnt terrible in Vanilla.. required pretty specific gear but it was doable, and I dunno if Id say fun but it was mildly entertaining.
The amount of toughness required nowadays to tank hits is absurd. There are still one-shots (e.g. Fan of Knives with 30 stacks of Lord Greenstone's Fan) but hopefully most of them can be avoided or have a long charge-up time.

The 100B estimate was for most attacks but there are still some very high single-hit attacks that would require even more toughness. If everyone used 100B toughness however, I think their damage would have been reduced enough (by trading damage for toughness) that the PVP could be meaningful again.

01/16/2018 11:18 PMPosted by Xombie
The only way it works is with white items.
While I do think that white items might work; it would be a short-term solution as the metagame would stale very quickly. There would be no variance in players outside of paragon and if paragon was disabled, then each class would settle-in on one good build. Then eventually, whichever class had the best build would then just dominate the metagame.

For example, if Impale DH happened to be the strongest with all white gear, everyone would just use that build and there would be no room for trying new things as the match-up would be "solved" in some sense. With some luck, the best build would be a rock-paper-scissors setup (no class beats all but each class has 1 top build) but still the game would become stale very quickly with only a few viable but identical builds.
They don't want to implement it. Do you know why ? Because every patch they would have to balance all again. They would be with hands tied to release some new itens which would unbalance game. So the best choice it is to split PvE from PvP. So each item should have their PvP version. So when you move the mouse above one iten it would display two copies from that item, one text for PvE other for PvP. So they would work like legendary power assigment few by few they would add each item PvP damage and effect. The same could be done with each rune - they would have a PvE effect and a PvP effect. So the game would suit better, they could cast and release nice things without to affect PvP. Saving each update job to balance everything again.
01/17/2018 05:41 AMPosted by PardalBR
They don't want to implement it.
This is a very true statement; I believe Blizzard would rather put effort into making D4 work out in the long run instead of trying to majorly patch one of D3's rarely used modes during latter stages of its life-cycle.

As for PVP-only items, that would require an entire overhaul of the current system in one of two possible implementations: (1) a completely new set of items only usable in PVP, or (2) an individual rescaling for every single attribute, ability, skill, and effect which is only active during PVP. Both of these would require tremendous effort to implement due to the number of abilities/affixes/skill/etc.

Another possible avenue for Blizzard to at least partially, and with minimal effort, fix the problem would be to add some stat caps and/or diminishing returns to many things like damage, healing, and resource/cooldown management. They could even leave the balancing of this to the players by allowing players to fully customize settings in the Scorched Chapel (e.g. global damage modifier, healing modifier, cooldown reduction maximum, and many more features).
Thats the price to pay for not giving players and AI the same defenses (ie life AND armor and resistances) and then massive scaling problems on top of that.
01/17/2018 09:59 AMPosted by UngivenFame
Thats the price to pay for not giving players and AI the same defenses (ie life AND armor and resistances) and then massive scaling problems on top of that.
The current situation is a byproduct of power creeping damage much faster than toughness. This in part is due to how they made GR scaling work:

Monster HP scales: 17% per GR level
Monster Damage scales: 13.2% per GR level (until 25), then 7.18% per GR (until 70), and then only 2.34% after.

Thus boosting a monster from GR0 to GR100: the monster gets a BEEFY 6,585,461x multiplier to its toughness but only a measly 211.2x damage buff!
Something to consider is for Blizzard to introduce a fourth game mode much like Challenge Rifts. Would it be fun? Rewards? Clan competition? No need to just compete with level 70 characters. People used to ironman with Diablo2 hardcore characters -- level 9. If like Challenge Rifts, perhaps one week all barbs, next all wizards, and so forth. Some weeks choose between several classes. Mix it up.

-- can't import existing character, gear, or paragon
-- choose a character class to play
-- either no choice in gear selection or limited choices
-- either no choice in skill selection or limited choices
-- random PvP arena maps
-- 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2
01/17/2018 10:55 AMPosted by SilverFox
Something to consider is for Blizzard to introduce a fourth game mode much like Challenge Rifts
Yeah pre-made characters would be another option! But they would need to be built carefully as to not be too strong and yet be fun to play. Also, multiple versions of each class would be nice (perhaps 4 of each: one using each set).
01/17/2018 10:32 AMPosted by Iria
01/17/2018 09:59 AMPosted by UngivenFame
Thats the price to pay for not giving players and AI the same defenses (ie life AND armor and resistances) and then massive scaling problems on top of that.
The current situation is a byproduct of power creeping damage much faster than toughness. This in part is due to how they made GR scaling work:

Monster HP scales: 17% per GR level
Monster Damage scales: 13.2% per GR level (until 25), then 7.18% per GR (until 70), and then only 2.34% after.

Thus boosting a monster from GR0 to GR100: the monster gets a BEEFY 6,585,461x multiplier to its toughness but only a measly 211.2x damage buff!
We've been talking about this since before Greater Rifts.
Useless talk devs will just do ant new works from here on. They are vanished it's a signal just little stuff will come each patch.
01/22/2018 02:57 AMPosted by PardalBR
Useless talk devs will just do ant new works from here on. They are vanished it's a signal just little stuff will come each patch.

Yeah, PVP will likely remain unfinished as I mentioned in the other thread.

Unfortunately, this thread has been moved to the seldom visited brawling forum now. I wrote this thread to be in the general forum to attract attention to my main thread (link in first post and this post) in the brawling forum, but alas, that plan was short lived!

Thus, to consolidate information and discussion:
Please post comments in this thread instead: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20761036431
01/17/2018 07:17 AMPosted by Iria
01/17/2018 05:41 AMPosted by PardalBR
They don't want to implement it.
This is a very true statement; I believe Blizzard would rather put effort into making D4 work out in the long run instead of trying to majorly patch one of D3's rarely used modes during latter stages of its life-cycle.

As for PVP-only items, that would require an entire overhaul of the current system in one of two possible implementations: (1) a completely new set of items only usable in PVP, or (2) an individual rescaling for every single attribute, ability, skill, and effect which is only active during PVP. Both of these would require tremendous effort to implement due to the number of abilities/affixes/skill/etc.

Another possible avenue for Blizzard to at least partially, and with minimal effort, fix the problem would be to add some stat caps and/or diminishing returns to many things like damage, healing, and resource/cooldown management. They could even leave the balancing of this to the players by allowing players to fully customize settings in the Scorched Chapel (e.g. global damage modifier, healing modifier, cooldown reduction maximum, and many more features).


D4.... LOL!!
it's not difficult to add like a -50% dmg debuff in arena. I'm not saying that 50% is the correct %, but it's just an example. I'm sure you guys have a better number in mind.

It's like what they did to 2v2 arena in WoW. They added a healing debuff to teams using a healer/dps, so games didn't last 2348972394 minutes.

It's not hard to add a flat dmg nerf across everything in arena to make it go longer... and PvE won't be affected obviously

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