Is D4 competition already in the works?

Games & Technology
02/09/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Meteorblade
Wolcen has been in alpha since 2015 with no sign that it's anywhere near a beta so it could be years before a live release, if indeed it ever reaches that state. It amazes me that people would pay money to alpha-test a product with no guarantee that it'll ever be finished.


I pay a WoW sub still, and that's pretty much the case with that game at this point, Legion featured more changes during live than alpha/beta overall. Legion is 'live' yet it never passed beta development stage. One of the many reasons I won't be touching BfA at all, despite the fact I've had several friends offer to buy the expac for me. Point being if it's packaged properly paying to test can indeed be sold. I don't agree with the practice but it happens.

Other companies are either following suit with this companies testing practices or it's a trend in the gaming industry now to have the player base do the testing, the fact that they're making a buck on it is well...business I guess. I don't agree with the practice myself it leads to a messy experience for both the player base and the studio.

On topic I don't see how either game mentioned in the OP could be construed as pre planned competition for D4, or how the title of the OP is relevant considering they were in the works long before anything about D4 came to light.
02/10/2018 11:28 AMPosted by jay
02/09/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Meteorblade
Wolcen has been in alpha since 2015 with no sign that it's anywhere near a beta so it could be years before a live release, if indeed it ever reaches that state. It amazes me that people would pay money to alpha-test a product with no guarantee that it'll ever be finished.


I pay a WoW sub still, and that's pretty much the case with that game at this point, Legion featured more changes during live than alpha/beta overall. Legion is 'live' yet it never passed beta development stage. One of the many reasons I won't be touching BfA at all, despite the fact I've had several friends offer to buy the expac for me. Point being if it's packaged properly paying to test can indeed be sold. I don't agree with the practice but it happens.


... How long have you been playing WoW? I can't remember an expansion that hasn't been that way, and it's largely a good thing as far as balancing the game goes.
First game looks like last gen, second one actually looks decent.

That said, I think D4 might have old features that we enjoy, but I also feel like they'll try and spin it a little to try and add some game-changing play-styles to it.

I kind of feel like the future of gaming is going to add a lot more precision and less button mashing.

This is probably an unpopular opinion, just as any is that hasn't been really proven yet, but this genre will eventually lead us to first person to add the third dimension gameplay, but I'm not sure if it's early enough for D4 or not.
Hellgate London tried but it was way too early.
Destiny tried much later and did OK but the execution was really poor.
02/10/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Orrion
... How long have you been playing WoW? I can't remember an expansion that hasn't been that way, and it's largely a good thing as far as balancing the game goes.


I've played 10 years, and balance has been atrocious in every expansion except Wrath; even then it was only passable at very specific times in that expansion. That being said I've never seen the amount of spec and game system reward nerfs in any other expansion and that's mostly because of the addition of M+ dungeons and the artifact.

Gregg Street who isn't a favorite of mine by any stretch of the imagination stated clearly in a famous MMO-Champ interview that one of the biggest challenges he had was dealing with the performance tuning bias of the WoW team he headed up. He cited Mage developers being problematic. He was talking about Cata/MOP and Mid Wrath.

Legion was a straight up nightmare for balance; there are specs in the bottom 5 for DPS that get nerfed and spec's in the top 5 that get buffed, not to mention the god awful amount of RNG they've baked into every single dps spec. I won't write an essay but there's a really good reason that game stopped reporting subs after dropping from 13 million in Wrath to 2.5 in WOD.

They don't even test Mythic raiding on PTR; and they will nerf specs that do poorly in Mythic but do well in Heroic/Normal because of changes to fight mechanics/timing as you scale down in difficulty. It's a mess.
Here is an interview with Daniel the lead developer I did 2 years ago when Wolcen was called Umbra. Its awesome to see how far its come.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7QfO62QUuE

I will have some Last Epoch content similar soon.
02/10/2018 06:00 PMPosted by jay
02/10/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Orrion
... How long have you been playing WoW? I can't remember an expansion that hasn't been that way, and it's largely a good thing as far as balancing the game goes.


I've played 10 years, and balance has been atrocious in every expansion except Wrath; even then it was only passable at very specific times in that expansion. That being said I've never seen the amount of spec and game system reward nerfs in any other expansion and that's mostly because of the addition of M+ dungeons and the artifact.


Are you sure about that? I recall Wrath being one of the worst expansions for balance. The Death Knight utterly ruined PvP for the first half and was a nightmare on the whole over the course of it, even in PvE (since they were busy trying and failing to make all 3 DK trees do both tanking and damage). Plus, stat inflation got so out of hand that by ICC the devs were forced to build the bosses with a bunch of 1-shot mechanics to pose any challenge for healers that almost couldn't run out of mana and could pretty much heal everyone from 0 to 100 instantly. I remember having some stupid amount of critical strike chance at the time on my Shaman, upwards of 70%.

Gregg Street who isn't a favorite of mine by any stretch of the imagination stated clearly in a famous MMO-Champ interview that one of the biggest challenges he had was dealing with the performance tuning bias of the WoW team he headed up. He cited Mage developers being problematic. He was talking about Cata/MOP and Mid Wrath.


If that's what I'm thinking of, then he was talking about how Mages (and the other pures) would flock to a certain spec even if all 3 were roughly equal just because 1 of the specs was that little bit better than the others. This would be further reinforced by all the high level players choosing that spec, and the rest of the playerbase would follow them.

That was sort of alleviated by the new spec system, and a little before that by fights going into Mists and beyond being varied enough that "Fire" Mages (for example) weren't better than Frost or Arcane for 100% of the fights, but it still exists to some extent and probably will continue to.

Legion was a straight up nightmare for balance; there are specs in the bottom 5 for DPS that get nerfed and spec's in the top 5 that get buffed, not to mention the god awful amount of RNG they've baked into every single dps spec. I won't write an essay but there's a really good reason that game stopped reporting subs after dropping from 13 million in Wrath to 2.5 in WOD.

They don't even test Mythic raiding on PTR; and they will nerf specs that do poorly in Mythic but do well in Heroic/Normal because of changes to fight mechanics/timing as you scale down in difficulty. It's a mess.


I can't speak for specifics in Legion given that I've played it only casually, but such nerfs weren't unheard of before that, nor whiplash balance changes. Or horrible iterations of abilities. Or godawful amounts of RNG.
02/10/2018 05:55 AMPosted by Orrion
A game without multiplayer won't compete with any Diablo game.


Exactly, which is one of the many many reasons Diablo 3 sucks, no multiplayer.

02/10/2018 09:43 AMPosted by NINEGRAVES
I think just placing "Diablo" infront of the 4 regardless of game content and features wont cut it this time


You're right, not gonna work twice. Let's see D4 be "the fastest selling pc game of all time" without the weight of the massive amounts of fans from the original games promoting it.

It wont happen.

In fact, besides the millions blizzard will drop in marketing the only people promoting this game will be either paid to do it, or the current D3 fans who enjoy sitting in an echo chamber repeating to themselves that Diablo 3 was a good game.
who cares about D4 .. you just released diablo from malthael, thus he will be reborn and i wanna see baby diablo terrorizing the world :)
What is Stieg Hedlund up to these days? Id rehire him and put him in charge if the next Diablo.
Everything that's ever going to be with the future of gaming will have microtransactions as a perfunctory reaction to the idiots who will force themselves to coexist with it.

Everything starts great,
Then it ends very badly.

If you haven't noticed these sequential occurrences in gaming of late, you're never going to.
Wolcen looks like it could be a really fun D3/4 alternative. As for why they are in Alpha for so long - could be a couple of reasons:

A) They are polishing it and working out as many bugs as possible to release a quality game.

B) They are pulling a Blizzard and will wait until their competitors announce a release date so that they can announce theirs to overlap it / steal customers.

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