Ranged 4p Star Pact variant, 130+ish viable

Wizard
Just something that I concocted randomly while watching a frozen orb 130 clear earlier. mcdundee and I have tested this at 130 and even with only decent maps, we were doing quite well and iirc even almost cleared it. It was doing very well. Note that we did swap back to the usual version for pushing and actually clearing 130 as he was more comfortable with using it consistently.

Quick d3planner:
https://www.d3planner.com/641156981

It's based on my items, but with some rolls different. CDR is kind of important for this variant because you want more black hole uptime. When we were testing it, we only really had enough CDR to use it during the 2 arcane meteors... ideally you could replace gem in helm with diamond, but only if you think you can live (some paragon to vit could help).

You play it pretty much the same as the standard version, but standing far away from your monk... really it's just made to maximize use of both zeis and oculus circles. It's a much more active build. You have to occasionally dodge and move to oculus circles and actually time your meteors (yes that means you macroers are gonna have a hard time with this). If you're getting bored sitting there in the middle of sanc for days, this is your build. Make sure you're actually good enough to use it though lol.

Some tips:
- Make sure you cast your black hole in time to use it for 2 arcane cycle meteors. Not much else matters.

- Force spawn and oculus circle right before your arcane cycle so you can do a super meteor during arcane. You can get to any oculus easily with the way this works.

- This build is made to maximize damage per meteor as opposed to spamming them (though most of the time you can, unless the affixes are truly horrible...).

- You can use black hole to clear path for you if your monk sucks.

- Alternatively you can try switching black hole to wave of force like normal, just walk forward and WoF to gain stack and then walk back out for a large impact meteor

- I have done 120 with this spec in 3p by dropping esoteric for stricken. It kills the RG quite a bit faster thanks to the massive zeis bonus. You can still stay alive with decent affixes. It's a tad fishy, though. Any enclosed maps pretty much wreck you. It's a tad hectic.

TLDR It's WoL monk, transformed into a wizard, as stan put it...

That's about it, I only got to try it out just today, so it's experimental. Comments and thoughts are welcome.
How to "Force spawn and oculus circle" ?
By killing something with a meteor. Or what, are you going to say that one simple typo makes the entire meaning of the term obscure? I was very tired when I typed this up...

If you really need a step by step:
- Wait until the last oculus ring has disappeared.
- Land a meteor onto some very low HP trash (preferably on the perimeter so you don't use up much density), close to when arcane cycle would happen.
- Stand in the oculus circle that will inevitably spawn
- Use black hole and throw out 2 arcane cycle meteors (with 5 dynamo stacks obv) from the largest range you can muster.

This isn't much different from how you would play if you were soloing with star pact. Which I've solo'd through 111 doing this type of rotation (and going higher isn't really an issue of damage so much as how much it sucks to fish; I can kill easily in 115+ solo).

I mean not sure why this is getting downvotes, considering I've actually tested it in both 4p and even 3p. Hell on 3p, I cleared 120 with it in a bit over 11 mins.
Okay, aaand screw this forum.
03/12/2018 03:48 PMPosted by StoleOwnCar
Okay, aaand screw this forum.


Please don't be discouraged!

I do believe you! I've done some amazing things with Molten Impact, so I do believe Star Pact can do some crazy stuff.

So if you're playing in a team setting, what about using Reapers Wraps with a support necro that can spawn health globes almost at will?
Op, admire the theorycraft, but frankly 30 additional power hungry isn't very appealing. True zeis will have more dmg, but w/o movement ability the hazard of getting stuck isn't well worth it. Sanc is a 15 yard radius. So you are demanding zmk to group mob away from wiz @ desirable dmg buff % range yet still maintain perma sanc on wiz?? Tier 1 mk won't have problems, majority of mk out there won't have the skill nor gear lvl to pull off. 1st you need double sanc, 2nd it's more desirable for zmk group not casting sanc on him self.

The tweak has little practical usage over let's say blackhole teleport version w/o karini. Or the illusory version.

It more usable for low tier like 115-120. 130? Not really.
Except I just said we tested it out in 130... and we were doing fine in it. I asked mcdundee for his honest opinion of comparison between melee and ranged, and he said at worst they were about even. He ran them both at 130. Basically you lose WoF damage, but gain the ability to stand in oculus.

And no, the monk does not keep sanc on you. Since you're not in the middle of the mobs, you do not need sanc. You might need to occasionally dodge very bad affixes, but you can definitely stay alive.
Wow, 0 downvotes today on OP today. The Wizard forum is missing a lot of its original residents, but I always thought this was one of the friendlier D3 forums. Definitely better than General Discussion.

03/11/2018 08:20 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
I mean not sure why this is getting downvotes, considering I've actually tested it in both 4p and even 3p. Hell on 3p, I cleared 120 with it in a bit over 11 mins.


There are a couple bad apples that frequent this forum. But that's about it. They used to be eclipsed by some extremely knowledgeable and supportive Wizard players. I guess they either lurk or have moved on to other activities/games.
Have you tried a ranged Dels-FO build? Use DW in the cube. Dmg should be comparable if not more than star pact.

Could even be crazy and cube the swami and make for some insane burst dmg.
03/14/2018 12:32 AMPosted by aloc
Have you tried a ranged Dels-FO build? Use DW in the cube. Dmg should be comparable if not more than star pact.

Could even be crazy and cube the swami and make for some insane burst dmg.


Are you talking about this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t1lf_VWGUg

I wasn't terribly impressed with it. They had an absolutely amazing rift. If pact had a rift like that, it would have been even better. This build needs more damage.

If we're going to talk about throwing archon into the mix... hmmm...

Maybe something like this:
https://www.d3planner.com/322474685
- Go into archon.
- Get out of archon.
- Do some scrape damage, charge up triumvirate.
- Throw out lots of orbs leading into cold cycle
- Transform into archon immediately for a set of double stacked frozen orb damage on cold cycle.

Similar to the archon twister wiz days, basically. Just with FO and from range.
Despite my objections to this build, I actually upvoted you. We do need more theory crafts on na consider foreign servers dominates meta for past couple years.

I don't believe this build is noob friendly. For pros, testing on 130 4p isn't persuasive enough consider 4p records is 147. Ofc, not every build is push spec / for speed farm, 130 is good. But you mentioned you clr 130 with melee build.

Tbh for tier 1 groups, 3p 120 @11 mins is not bad, but consider traditional build has clr 134/135+ 3p...

With all respect, 11 min 120 is 2p timings. Me and supernature wasn't focused and we made 12.25 2p 120 no power, no conduit, single target rg on mediocre map.

Really appreciate your work for the community. I 'll discuss with super and see what he thinks. Perhaps he 'll have more ideas.
03/14/2018 07:18 PMPosted by celtic08
I don't believe this build is noob friendly. For pros, testing on 130 4p isn't persuasive enough consider 4p records is 147. Ofc, not every build is push spec / for speed farm, 130 is good. But you mentioned you clr 130 with melee build.


No kidding it isn't "noob friendly". I never meant it to be. I just said it was more engaging and had roughly same damage cap, at worst.

As far as our testing, yeah we aren't "pros" because we don't have like 6k paragon. 6k paragon people can easily run 3 dps gems because they have so much extra defense. We don't have perfect gear, either. It takes us some fishing to clear anything above 130. So us saying that we had at worst equal results between the two builds, I believe, is quite relevant. Because we're using the same base (ourselves).

Actually the rift that we were keeping up with (and easily beating) the timer on was far from ideal. The rift we did clear 130 (and then subsequently 131) with the standard spec... was much better.

03/14/2018 07:18 PMPosted by celtic08
Tbh for tier 1 groups, 3p 120 @11 mins is not bad, but consider traditional build has clr 134/135+ 3p...


It was like our first attempt. Again I also don't care what those 4.5-6k paragon people are clearing. They're playing a different game. We've done 122 2p with standard spec. Not that it really matters. 124 3p. Trying out different builds may give us an edge. I can tell you that in 3p, this build has a much higher cap with some fishing simply because zeis will cut the RG fight time significantly.

03/14/2018 07:18 PMPosted by celtic08
With all respect, 11 min 120 is 2p timings. Me and supernature wasn't focused and we made 12.25 2p 120 no power, no conduit, single target rg on mediocre map.


Who cares? We did the same with 120-122 2p. It's not a big deal. Sometimes you have crappy maps but good mobs. You don't need a good conduit, you don't need power. We didn't have it either. Not to mention for star pact, a power is at best 2 arcane meteors. I don't see what relevance this has to do with this build.

Look with all due respect, I don't know what you're intentions are... but you're coming off a being skeptical for the hell of it while flaunting your records with the standard spec.

If you want more definitive proof, here are two simulations. They're using almost the exact same rotation that I used in another topic:

Melee version (updated for current standard specouts):
https://www.d3planner.com/977345182
DPS: 25.6T

Ranged version (diamond in helm):
https://www.d3planner.com/491549177
DPS: 39.2T

Now, the simulator is a little bit flawed, but it's flawed universally across both builds. As you can see, the ranged version simulates MUCH higher. This is how much of a difference the zeis ranged advantage makes. This is before we even factor in the ability to use oculus rings. Or the fact that the simulator just uses black hole whenever it's available. When ideally it saves for the arcane meteor always.

Although, to be honest it kind of surprised me as to how much higher it simulated. And I forgot to update some of the stats, so it actually has weaker gem AND gear than the melee version lol.
Actually correction, my simulation for the ranged variant was a little off because I loaded an older version of the rotation.

https://www.d3planner.com/599894248

This one has comparable rotations (just switching in black hole). The older version wasn't waiting for dynamo (which is bugged in the simulator, but it's bugged for both of them equally anyway).

Actual DPS is 42.3T.

Of course there's some inaccuracy here. Black hole will rarely hit as many mobs as Wave of Force does (much smaller radius), so that might explain the discrepancy in practical play performance. However the nice thing is that black hole keeps its initial stacks throughout the duration. Wave of Force stacks will shrink with bursts. Black Hole also has a shorter animation and doesn't need to be cast but every 5-7 (not enough CDR) seconds. So during arcane cycle, all you need to actually do is build AP and release. No having to weave in WoF.
That's not what I meant at all.

03/14/2018 04:00 PMPosted by StoleOwnCar
03/14/2018 12:32 AMPosted by aloc
Have you tried a ranged Dels-FO build? Use DW in the cube. Dmg should be comparable if not more than star pact.

Could even be crazy and cube the swami and make for some insane burst dmg.


Are you talking about this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t1lf_VWGUg

I wasn't terribly impressed with it. They had an absolutely amazing rift. If pact had a rift like that, it would have been even better. This build needs more damage.

If we're going to talk about throwing archon into the mix... hmmm...

Maybe something like this:
https://www.d3planner.com/322474685
- Go into archon.
- Get out of archon.
- Do some scrape damage, charge up triumvirate.
- Throw out lots of orbs leading into cold cycle
- Transform into archon immediately for a set of double stacked frozen orb damage on cold cycle.

Similar to the archon twister wiz days, basically. Just with FO and from range.
03/15/2018 01:20 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
flaunting your records


Theres nothing to flaunt about. I didn't clr 147, nor 150 yet.

I am a result driven guy. A build is only good if it can break previous records, obviously taking paragon and gem lvl into consideration. Fun for me is setting rankings.

03/15/2018 10:36 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
https://www.d3planner.com/599894248


Thank you for this, I ll pass this to other guys who don't visit this forum.
This thread has came into my eye for long, I should have replied earlier.

The thing is, WoF is multiplicative while BH is additive. And in 4man, you have ~120 additive buff/debuff already. In other words, in a GG map, BH will provide ~150 additive, strongarm another 30, bringing additive to ~300, so 95% actual dmg increase. As for WoF, in a GG map, you always get 70+ stacks, so 280+% actual dmg buff.

Of course you can always use BH, it's a nice build, however it'll be nowhere close to the ceiling of WoF. Besides, WoF and BH could be combined, if you really want to push to the limit, though I don't like the playstyle that much. (Replace magic weapon by BH, and use FB 2piece to provide the 3rd fire skill) .

Besides, there're several WoF variant either have TP or illusory boots, which enable good use of Oculus.
We only tried one 4p run at 130 using the ranged build, so it was not a very good test. I was surprised that we were keeping ahead of the timer though for the most part. I was pretty sure about the dmg difference between WoF (multi) and Spellsteal (additive). Maybe D3 planner isn't factoring those correctly and that's why it's showing more DPS in the ranged build.

The ranged version is certainly more engaging, basically running to each oculus while trying to maximize zei's range bonus.

Survivability could be a real issue with certain layouts/affixes, but the limiting factors are losing the multi from WoF and casting fewer overall meteors simply due to travel time. Hard to simulate some of these differences in planner.

Anyway, we've been having fun theorycrafting and testing different things. Using the FB2 revive meteor as the 3rd ignite, while a very fishy mechanic, opens up a skill slot while allowing you to keep SA/Karini. The obvious choice is BH spellsteal, but TP is also an option for survivability and dmg (easy access to oculus). We also tried Frost Nova Deep Freeze for 10% CHC. Combining this with group buffs and conflag passive could push your CHC to near 90%. This could be an option for 2p with Ice Armor/Arlyse.

I was also thinking about working in the Demon's Hide crafted set (belt + bracer) for +25% AD, bringing the AD cap to 199%. Significant tradeoffs involved with that though, would need run RoRG and drop karini/APD/SoD. Toughness issues aside, I'm not even sure if the rotation would still be possible without SoD. Maybe with Velvet Camaral/forked lightning APOC returns combined with Prodigy passive and max CHC it could work...? Prob not viable but I kinda forgot about the crafted sets and was wondering if there was anything useful.

These tests have just been trying to find ways to squeeze out more DPS at the expense of toughness to reduce the silly amount of fishing for perfect maps/mobs. It seems unlikely that any of these ideas will surpass the "classic" setup which has a nice balance of dmg and toughness, but mechanics are often not intuitive in D3, and it's fun to at least rule out other options.
Logged in to upvote. Thanks for the guide! :-)
If anyone is interested, I was able to complete the rotation without using SoD belt. I ran RoRG in cube and equipped Demon’s Hide belt + bracer and Velvet Camaral helm. With 8 APOC from wizard hat and source, and Prodigy passive, it is possible to regen enough AP to channel when SP impacts. Not sure if it would work with any wizard hat or just VC.

So 199% AD is technically possible, but with a major hit to toughness (loss of Karini and APD).

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