Diablo III - The Successful Failure - 2018

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New post based on the original, as the original was outdated, and thus locked.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752245279#post-1

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https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20752245279?page=2#post-26

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I believe Diablo 3 was a Successful Failure. But why do I say this?
I say this because Diablo 3 was successful as an Action-Game, with a short-play-time. It appeals to casuals, because not much time is needed to "beat" the game and be exceptionally powerful. It's like the Fisher-Price version of "Lego Technic". It sold 30+ million units on name alone and the legacy (D2). 30 million units sold is a massive success in terms of revenue, even when the Diablo reputation has received a near "knock out" punch due to the unbelievably poor game design.

It was a failure, in terms of "Diablo", because it failed to be a worthy successor to Diablo 2, in basically every imaginable way. If Diablo 3 would have carried another name, no one would have complained to the extend everyone did since Diablo 3 launched. Let me elaborate:


  • The whole development team changed. The majority of developers, designers, leaders of the previous games are no more. Matt Uelmen, responsible for music in the previous games, has also not created the music for D3. Those two factors are the main reason.
  • Blizzard oversimplified Diablo 3. All the cool stuff from D2 was removed. Diablo 3 attempted to re-invent the "wheel", and failed at it in terms of "Diablo Legacy". I say this, because D3 is a decent action-game on its own, it just shouldn't be called "Diablo", then people would complain much much less. Further, Diablo 3 was designed from the start with multi-platforms in mind. This has inevitably damaged the "PC" experience, because developers must simplify things so console players don't get hand-cancer. (Examples are max 4 player limit, very limited amount of "architecture" and buildings are displayed at any given time. This is because they wanted Consoles and Low-End-PC's to be able to run the game.
  • Blizzard failed to recognize what works in an ARPG like Diablo. This again is because the people that created D1 and D2, have long left Blizzard, and their version of Diablo 3 was canceled in 2005 because it didn't fit into Blizzard's Art Direction, as well as "failed" to match their "quality standards". The maps in Diablo 3 vanilla were static for the most part. This is the reason why Rifts and Grifts were implemented, because the developers realized that Diablo 3 was way to linear and static, and that the Director failed to address this fundamental flaw during the design phase and before the game shipped. Even to this day, Rifts and Grifts in Diablo 3 are still static, Diblo 3 simply pics static maps, in a random fashion to be loaded in Rifts and Grifts. The maps are actually still not randomly generated based on map-tiles, like it should be, where various tile types exist, such as boarder-tiles, path-tiles, environmental-tiles, quest-tiles, waypoint-tiles, lore-tiles, etc.Further, due to the simplification of Diablo 3's mechanics and general systems, a lot of the longevity was removed from "the journey".

    To make matters worse, the developers decided to implement WOW's leveling system into Diablo 3, because that is all they knew and had experience with. But a WOW-leveling scheme is misplaced in a game like Diablo. This is because Diablo is a game where the longevity and replay-ability come from the "journey", and not an "end-game" after you reach "max level". The developers realized that a WOW-leveling system (1-60 and then 1-70 with ROS), where everyone is at max level after a few hours of gameplay, was a terrible choice for a game like Diablo. This is why they implemented the Paragon System, but that system was just a "band-aid" on an amputated arm, and no replacement for a true character-leveling and character-building system, like Diablo 2 had.
  • Diablo 3 is a success in therms of action game and a failure in therms of RPG game.

    ------------------------

    Lets compare how a bone necro works on D2 with D3 in action part :

    Summon :
    - D2 - Can't control the summons and need corpses
    - D3 - Don't need corpses and can command your minions.

    My unique critique on D3's necro is cooldown for golem attacking. Cooldown makes no sense in any game, is a boring mechanic and the duration of skeleton mages and revived minions. But i tried to be a summon necro on d2, then diablo destroyed my skeleton army with a single hit and i switched to bone necro. Not having corpse requirement(someone who can raise an bone wall needs corpses to have skeletons makes no sense)

    Offensive spells :

    - D2 - Cast bone prison, decrepify, then generate a corpse via bone spirit/spear spam then corpose explode the screen. Use a lot of mana potions in between.
    - D3 - Generate resources via Siphon Blood, then attack with bone spear/spirit

    I will not compare poison since Witch Doctor fits it on D3, but in therms of offensive skills, necro's lost some IA curses(that can be op on high tier GR), battlefield control spells like bone wall, bone prison, etc but gained cool blood skills and generate essence in a more interesting way than fill your inventory with mana potions.

    Now the RPG part.

    - Every character is the same. There are no difference between characters. Only the gear that they are wearing makes then """different"""
    - The game have a linear progression that is more linear than cod/bf because in bf at least i can unlock dlc weapon via challenges and can choose what unlock first.
    - No skill progression, someone who learned a spell few seconds and the best magician in world cast the spell with the same power. The power only depends on weapon that they are holding. This applies to monks. More strong, heavy and sharp his axe is, more strong his punches and kickes are.
    - The damage scale is more inflated than Zimbabwe currency
    - Over 90% of active player base is max level while in d2 is rare to see someone above lv 95 legit.

    So yes, diablo 3 is a good action game and terrible RPG game. IMHO D3 have the best action of aRPG market and worst RPG on aRPG market.
    D3 is a diablo game in name only. If they didnt own the "diablo" name it would be even more of a failure.
    04/22/2018 05:38 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
    Diablo 3 is a success in therms of action game and a failure in therms of RPG game.

    While, in term of APRG game, it become a question of ratio between Action/RPG factors. Too high Action portion become action game with RPG factors. Too RPG portion become RPG game plus Action. Is this ratio optimized to me is quite personal, so I won't use words such as good/bad or success/fail. I will only say the RPG portion is not enough to me, honestly ^^.
    I think the greatest failure for D3 was the itemisation, in terms of making items determine 99% of a character's dps/toughness. With that failure, build diversity was a casualty.

    What was the spur behind this awful idea? My guess is that it was because of AH. Think about it, anyone with a credit card could just purchase the best items and become a god without grinding for weeks if not months for good items. If you played self found, you were bound to playing lower mp levels because the amount of drops were pitiful back then. Getting rid of AH and increasing drop rates was a right direction, but the damage on itemisation was already done.

    I agree with some of you that its great as an action game, but failed horribly in the RPG department. D1 and D2 had a sandbox feel towards builds, but D3 sets have made builds cookie-cutter, almost everyone is literally wearing the same gear and using the same skills.
    You haven't mentioned one of the more surprising successes of D3:

    6 years later and people that don't even like or play the game are STILL making posts about it!

    I don't know what is in the secret sauce, but it's apparently really important for some people to let other people know that they don't like the game. D3 is like the Taylor Swift of games.
    04/22/2018 06:33 PMPosted by jtcdgroup
    I think the greatest failure for D3 was the itemisation, in terms of making items determine 99% of a character's dps/toughness. With that failure build diversity was a casualty.

    What was the spur behind this awful idea? My guess is that it was because of AH. Think about it, anyone with a credit card could just purchase the best items and become a god without grinding for weeks if not months for good items. If you played self found, you were bound to playing lower mp levels because the amount of drops were pitiful back then. Getting rid of AH and increasing drop rates was a right direction, but the damage on itemisation was already done.

    I agree with some of you that its great as an action game, but failed horribly in the RPG department. D1 and D2 had a sandbox feel towards builds, but D3 sets have made builds cookie-cutter, almost everyone is literally wearing the same gear and using the same skills.


    Yes, they make unarmed skills scale with only weapon and killed any skill progression due RMAH(real money action house). Otherwise, i think that a item to item AH is good but real money not... What other aRPG do that? No other aRPG on market makes more big, sharp and heavy the axe is, more strong a monk's punches/kickes or a necro's golem and the wizard's frost ray;

    The unique aRPG that comes into my mind is torchlight and torchlight at least have skill progression (despite every skill being %WD)

    To show how gear makes difference in D2, here is my necro with and without gear. As you can see, gear gives a lot of bonuses to my spells but the game still playable withou a decent gear. This gear is average IMHO.

    https://imgur.com/a/wCa2Qvb

    That is how gears should work. It increases a lot of my golem's survavibility, increases my number of revived monsters(since i've only spend 4 points), allow me to use sorc skills like meteor and firewall(to kill magic immune monsters without CE/Merc/Iron Golem), have a teleport charged item on "W") when i complete the set, i will get a vampire transformation and it increases a lot my resistances and the damage? 1,6k to 2,1k. Is not like i need all of my gear to kill the weakest imp on hell difficulty... I wanna complete the set despite being very hard because have this things will be good, not as requirement to climb more few floors in the Zimbabwean inflated health scale Greater Rift...

    04/22/2018 06:39 PMPosted by Mercury
    You haven't mentioned one of the more surprising successes of D3:

    6 years later and people that don't even like or play the game are STILL making posts about it!

    I don't know what is in the secret sauce, but it's apparently really important for some people to let other people know that they don't like the game. D3 is like the Taylor Swift of games.


    I've purchased d3 this month.
    04/22/2018 05:24 PMPosted by TOPCommander
    New post based on the original, as the original was outdated, and thus locked.


    Which you knew would happen, but you went and bumped yourself anyway. Color me unimpressed with your ploy.

    Why do you need to rehash it again now, anyway? What do you have to say now that you didn't say back then? Not much, it looks like.

    Also, WoW's leveling scheme? It takes longer than a few hours to level in WoW. D3 didn't copy anyone's leveling scheme. The leveling process was badly proportioned to start with. The campaign is straightforward with very little deviation and zero reason to explore elsewhere (and there's nothing to explore, anyway). WoW's leveling has always been the opposite - where there was almost always more quests to do than you needed to level up, leaving the player with the choice of completing zone quest lines or moving on to different ones.
    04/22/2018 07:21 PMPosted by Orrion
    04/22/2018 05:24 PMPosted by TOPCommander
    New post based on the original, as the original was outdated, and thus locked.


    Which you knew would happen, but you went and bumped yourself anyway. Color me unimpressed with your ploy.

    Why do you need to rehash it again now, anyway? What do you have to say now that you didn't say back then? Not much, it looks like.

    Also, WoW's leveling scheme? It takes longer than a few hours to level in WoW. D3 didn't copy anyone's leveling scheme. The leveling process was badly proportioned to start with. The campaign is straightforward with very little deviation and zero reason to explore elsewhere (and there's nothing to explore, anyway). WoW's leveling has always been the opposite - where there was almost always more quests to do than you needed to level up, leaving the player with the choice of completing zone quest lines or moving on to different ones.


    When he said wow leveling, i think that the correct is wow in attributes.

    "Okay, look at it from this perspective then. WoW and D3 are similar in the way they handle leveling, you level up to max level, and then the endgame starts, be it hardcore or casual, most of newer content is accessible from the max level.

    This is where the itemization comes in, everything on your character is the same as the other person, but the gear may be different.
    " Rashiel, from here https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20762157640
    We would all be infinitely more sad about D3's failure if PoE wasn't around. PoE is Diablo 3, it's what the D2 successor should've been.

    I WISH they would've just kept releasing content for D3 just so I'd have 2 ARPGs to play. Grim Dawn just feels like a worse PoE in every way, while D3 is somewhat unique. If they would just ADD content, I could enjoy TWO ARPGs. But no, they gave up because PoE was clearly outpacing them, cowards.

    Blizzard just thinks we're all idiots that can't figure anything out on our own. Jokes on them, the "requires you to have excel spreadsheets to play" PoE has 80-100k players on steam alone, likely double that on the standalone client every new league start, despite its complexity.

    We're not stupid Blizzard, you don't need to spoon feed me literally everything.

    THAT is the problem with D3. It's not "casualization", because it's ENTIRELY possible to play a complex game casually. It's that they think we're all morons. And for that, I'm insulted by Blizzard. They think we can't handle choices in our builds, that we can't handle attribute allocation, that we can't handle complexity in kits, they think we can't handle interesting items that change up entire builds because they'd be too complex. You're wrong Blizzard, and PoE stomping on this game is proof of that.
    They will make D4 stupid easy with no RPG elements so they can sell to the console kids. You thought D3 was bad wait for D4. And you can probably play it on your phone like kandy crush. Its all about the dumbing down of the game and more marketability. And more bots.
    04/22/2018 08:06 PMPosted by XxTaiPanxX
    They will make D4 stupid easy with no RPG elements so they can sell to the console kids. You thought D3 was bad wait for D4. And you can probably play it on your phone like kandy crush. Its all about the dumbing down of the game and more marketability. And more bots.


    I disagree. See this video from Rhykker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vzHKWhgr-Q
    let's be honest i really doubt d4 will be better because
    looking d3 6 year later not much happen, i just think they dont have the talen to make good rpg , my best hope is d2 remastered
    let's be honest i really doubt d4 will be better because
    looking d3 6 year later not much happen, i just think they dont have the talen to make good rpg , my best to hope is d2 remastered


    Well, they realized the lack of replay ability(probably because every char is a clone except by gear) and introduced rifts and GR's... Also they added necromancer. A class that a lot of people love and WD was the least popular class on D3... IMHO if i wanna a "spiritual sucessor" for necromancer, i will put Warlock. And note : Warlock is not the WoW warlock. WoW warlock will not fit diablo lore, but someone who broke free from a contract and then learned how to slave demons and use demons against demons is not against diablo lore IMHO. "The most commonly accepted etymology derives warlock from the Old English wǣrloga meaning "oathbreaker" or "deceiver"" source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlock

    But honestly, between warlock and necromancer, i still think that necros is better. Is more "human"...

    Also if they add druid and don't destroy druid with cooldonw shapechange/hurricane, i will purchase depending the price. Will be a fun experience for few hours.

    I know that when i reach max level and complete the story, the game will become much boring and the second druid will be a first druid's clone in his skills and abilities, but worth few hours of good action. Don't get me wrong, rifts and great rifts and not even necro will save d3 from his death.
    04/22/2018 07:29 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
    04/22/2018 07:21 PMPosted by Orrion
    ...

    Which you knew would happen, but you went and bumped yourself anyway. Color me unimpressed with your ploy.

    Why do you need to rehash it again now, anyway? What do you have to say now that you didn't say back then? Not much, it looks like.

    Also, WoW's leveling scheme? It takes longer than a few hours to level in WoW. D3 didn't copy anyone's leveling scheme. The leveling process was badly proportioned to start with. The campaign is straightforward with very little deviation and zero reason to explore elsewhere (and there's nothing to explore, anyway). WoW's leveling has always been the opposite - where there was almost always more quests to do than you needed to level up, leaving the player with the choice of completing zone quest lines or moving on to different ones.


    When he said wow leveling, i think that the correct is wow in attributes.

    "Okay, look at it from this perspective then. WoW and D3 are similar in the way they handle leveling, you level up to max level, and then the endgame starts, be it hardcore or casual, most of newer content is accessible from the max level.

    This is where the itemization comes in, everything on your character is the same as the other person, but the gear may be different.
    " Rashiel, from here https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20762157640


    Um. That’s how all MMOs and ARPGs work. You level and then there’s the endgame. The difference in D3 is they fast tracked the leveling process, which isn’t like WoW or any other game.

    Now, WoW has always had a somewhat easier leveling process than other MMOs, but it was still there and it still took time. D3’s leveling process is so out of proportion to anything else that you can’t really compare it.
    (...)
    Um. That’s how all MMOs and ARPGs work. You level and then there’s the endgame. The difference in D3 is they fast tracked the leveling process, which isn’t like WoW or any other game.

    Now, WoW has always had a somewhat easier leveling process than other MMOs, but it was still there and it still took time. D3’s leveling process is so out of proportion to anything else that you can’t really compare it.


    How much time after the ladder resets is needed to someone reach max level on d3? Few hours? In D2 there are months after the ladder reset and lv 95+ players are pretty rare. I never played with any max level player on this ladder.

    When he said about wow leveling, he din't said about the speed to level, but about the lack of customization or skill improvements. On D2 there are a lot of difference between a lv 1 firewall and a max level firewall, not only the damage, the radius on lv 1 is 4 yards, on lv 20 is 30. On D3 an sorc who learned firewall few secs ago and the best fire magician in world cast exactly the same firewall, with the same radius, duration and power. Only the weapon that they are holding makes the difference.

    Same for necro's; An apprentice who learned few secs ago how to create skeletons can have 7 skeletons. The stronger master necromancer in world who spend decades studying and practicing how to build an skeleton army can have 7 skeletons, the same amount of the apprentice... And they scale only with their weapon, more heavy, big and sharp the axe is, more powerful the skeletons are. In D2 if you wanna an undead army, you can have tons of skeletons but you need to sacrifice a lot skill points that can be spend into bone spear or poison nova to archive it...

    - Most stats be linked to gear is from WoW
    - You can't choose how evolve your character is from WoW
    - Everything is %WD is from WoW
    (...)

    I don't know how vanilla wow is in therms of RPG mechanics, but D3 IMHO is more closer to WoW than to any diablo or diablo-like game.
    04/22/2018 09:52 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
    04/22/2018 08:06 PMPosted by XxTaiPanxX
    They will make D4 stupid easy with no RPG elements so they can sell to the console kids. You thought D3 was bad wait for D4. And you can probably play it on your phone like kandy crush. Its all about the dumbing down of the game and more marketability. And more bots.


    I disagree. See this video from Rhykker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vzHKWhgr-Q
    Rhykker lol what this guy know about diablo , i never see him in the 1997 or 2000 , this guy is only a Clickbait for is channel , he never play or make video , on the prime time of diablo , i really dislike this clown ,because the time he talking about d1 and d2 is very obvious he don't know about what he talking , Rhykker plz give a break , go give him1 $ to is patron is only what is looking for , facepalm , 110% agree it XxTaiPanxX
    04/23/2018 07:31 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
    (...)
    Um. That’s how all MMOs and ARPGs work. You level and then there’s the endgame. The difference in D3 is they fast tracked the leveling process, which isn’t like WoW or any other game.

    Now, WoW has always had a somewhat easier leveling process than other MMOs, but it was still there and it still took time. D3’s leveling process is so out of proportion to anything else that you can’t really compare it.


    How much time after the ladder resets is needed to someone reach max level on d3? Few hours? In D2 there are months after the ladder reset and lv 95+ players are pretty rare. I never played with any max level player on this ladder.


    Don’t see how any of that is relevant.

    When he said about wow leveling, he din't said about the speed to level, but about the lack of customization or skill improvements. On D2 there are a lot of difference between a lv 1 firewall and a max level firewall, not only the damage, the radius on lv 1 is 4 yards, on lv 20 is 30. On D3 an sorc who learned firewall few secs ago and the best fire magician in world cast exactly the same firewall, with the same radius, duration and power. Only the weapon that they are holding makes the difference.


    Actually, if you go read the OP again, you’ll notice he is, in fact, specifically talking about the speed of leveling. It’s even in bold.
    04/23/2018 08:26 AMPosted by Orrion
    Actually, if you go read the OP again, you’ll notice he is, in fact, specifically talking about the speed of leveling. It’s even in bold.


    Then you are right. On D3 the new season begins and in the same day there are max level people...
    Cool story bro.

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