Is D3 more WoW-like or Diablo-like?

General Discussion
In some aspects like the leveling system, art-style, always online, etc. The fact that your gear determine your stats and spell-like skills power, instead of enhance it...

Don't get me wrong, i understand the majority of changes, for example, always online is a way to prevent piracy. It hurts a lot gaming industry. Troika games(my favorite developer) was ruined by piracy; So if Bliz wanna protect their IP, is their right. Sure some times companies exaggerate on this and ends punishing people who bought legally the game, but is not the case of D3. In fact, the connection on D3 is pretty good.

The way that classes work and character customization works changed a lot from D1 to D2. On D1 doesn't matter how much you love fire bolt for example. You will only be able to get better at trowing a fire bolt by finding a book or if a merchant is welling to sell it. D2 with skill trees fixed it. D3 changes was made trying to let players change at will actives and passives. In other words, become more similar to a CoD loadout system with a cod like linear progression than a system present on RPG's. Also skill levels was removed. That way, there are no difference between a fireball launched by someone who learned how to trow fireball few seconds ago to someone who practiced for decades on it. Only the gear makes the difference in the spell power.

Sure, loot is a very important think on aRPG's, but is not only the unique think important. IF you read the positive reviews on D3, nobody talks about how good the skill system on D3 is. They talk about action and cool factor that D3 is pretty good.
It's not like any of those. D3 became a Greater Rift arcade, there's no more RP or loot hunt involved.
Weak bait.
WoW has become more like Diablo.

  • Legendary items drop like crazy.
  • PvP has turned into pure crap.
  • Talent tree has all but disappeared. (there is now a talent twig)
  • Skill is not required to get far.
  • Gear makes the player.
  • and on and on. WoW is a shadow of what it once was.
    You premises are scewed. The ability to change skills at will is not the main difference between D2 and D3. Indeed, resetting skill points in D2 LOD was super easy via Akara or token of absolution.

    The key difference between the systems is this: D2 had stepping-stone skills that became obsolete after levels 18, 24 and 30. D3 jettisoned the concept of stepping-stone skills in favor of a system where all skills are at peak strength (holding gear and skill synergy constant) and all skills are comparable to the other skills within their category. Imbalances do exist, of course, and some skills are better in some applications than others, e.g. speed vs. damage; however, obsolescence is not part of D3's skill system.

    The other key difference is that D2 used scarce skill points to drive player choice while D3 used scarce skill slots.

    Regarding the question: Is D3 more like WoW or D2? I played D2 for over a decade. Twice I tried to play and like WoW for my siblings (they wanted me raid with them) but couldn't do it. It just wasn't fun for me. As for D3, I've been playing it for 6 years and am still loving it. So yeah, D3 feels much more like D2 than WoW. If it felt like WoW, then I probably would have moved on.
    Obviously the game play in Diablo 3 follows the series and is different from WOW. However, many similar concepts were introduced into Diablo 3 and WOW.

    The talent trees and skill trees are very similar, as are legendaries and their powers. Mythic plus dungeons and greater rifts are based on the same infinitely scaling principle to provide a pseudo-neverending end game content. Even bounties and world quests feel extremely similar concepts to me.

    The truth is that Diablo and WOW are similar game genres. In addition, blizzard had found that reusing content is extremely cheap and therefore profitable. They spend less when they can share ideas across their games and end up making more money.
    04/18/2018 09:49 AMPosted by RedCell
    d. The ability to change skills at will is not the main difference between D2 and D3


    Never said that is the main difference but is one difference.

    04/18/2018 09:37 AMPosted by Merp
    WoW has become more like Diablo.

  • Legendary items drop like crazy.
  • PvP has turned into pure crap.
  • Talent tree has all but disappeared. (there is now a talent twig)
  • Skill is not required to get far.
  • Gear makes the player.
  • and on and on. WoW is a shadow of what it once was.


    Correction. Wow become more like Diablo 3 All your critiques applies only to one game of the franchise but i agree with all. Never played Vanilla WoW, so i can't compare D3 with "old" WoW.

    04/18/2018 09:49 AMPosted by RedCell
    resetting skill points in D2 LOD was super easy via Akara or token of absolution.


    You need to farm hell bosses to get token of absolution and Akara gives only 3 respecs.

    04/18/2018 09:49 AMPosted by RedCell
    D2 had stepping-stone skills that became obsolete after levels 18, 24 and 30.


    Sure, some skills become obsolete, but not all. Bone armor, clay golem, amplify damage, etc are useful at lv 1 or at lv 99. There are skills for all classes that are useful.

    04/18/2018 09:49 AMPosted by RedCell
    The other key difference is that D2 used scarce skill points to drive player choice while D3 used scarce skill slots.


    And very scarce. But you can change like your change things on a FPS. On CoD you have a unlock line of weapons and perks that you will unlock and can change everything at will. Nobody calls CoD an RPG, i will correct my sentence.

    Diablo 3 progression is more similar to cod than to any RPG or aRPG.

    Compare D3 with WoW was a mistake.

    -----------------------------

    If you disagree, name one, only one character customization element present on D3 and his predecessors or other RPG/aRPG. Only one.
    It obviously feels much more like D2 than WoW simply based on the pacing of isometric combat versus WoW.

    In the item design aspects, it borrows a lot from WoW. These are the biggest flaws of D3, the things borrowed from WoW but they aren't actually features that make D3 FEEL like WoW.

    They need to get way more creative with the itemization. I like to characterize it as branching up and out as opposed to a single trunk extending infinitely upwards.

    Items in D2, had a certain variance to them that D3 completely lacks. In D2, its not like you had to get one exact combination of affixes on rare item. There was a whole spectrum of acceptable combinations of affixes.
    WoW and D3 have indeed become more and more similar, especially in regards to itemization, item affixes (like main-stat), and (active and passive) skill systems and in most cases this was bad.

    The only change that I personally like where Diablo has become a bit more like WoW is the active skill system in the regards that they have gotten rid of skill points for active skills. However, I definitely would like to have skill points for passive skills and an attribute system in which you can spend points into.

    But the really big thing were D3 went waaaay to far in WoW's direction is itemization. Itemization in D2 was pretty amazing (although it was not perfect). You have various interesting affixes, rare items were useful and even BiS items for some builds, so every items was worth picking up and having a look at and your builds were not so much restrained by items then they are in D3 (which funnels everyone into the same builds with OP set and their massive multipliers that only buff a predetermined skill setup).
    04/18/2018 10:19 AMPosted by UngivenFame
    In the item design aspects, it borrows a lot from WoW. These are the biggest flaws of D3, the things borrowed from WoW but they aren't actually features that make D3 FEEL like WoW.

    They need to get way more creative with the itemization. I like to characterize it as branching up and out as opposed to a single trunk extending infinitely upwards.


    Well said. The game only feels different than WoW due the isometric nature.
    Okay, look at it from this perspective then. WoW and D3 are similar in the way they handle leveling, you level up to max level, and then the endgame starts, be it hardcore or casual, most of newer content is accessible from the max level.

    This is where the itemization comes in, everything on your character is the same as the other person, but the gear may be different. The approach is to have some increasing power awarded to time played. It may not be perfect in all cases, but when you reach max level, you won't be increasing level/skillpoint wise.

    D2 had the approach that it was the journey to max level that was important, whether or not you actually had something to do at the end of the road was irrelevant.

    So yes, d3 and WoW are similar because they put their focus on endgame rather than leveling, they addressed a problem some had with d1-2.
    04/18/2018 09:49 AMPosted by RedCell
    Indeed, resetting skill points in D2 LOD was super easy via Akara or token of absolution.


    Sorry but you can do it only once per difficulty. Then it can take hours to get all tokens. It means:
    • you MUST be careful to choose the skillpoints and must think actively, your choices set a route. (the basics of any RPG)
    • there is a higher feeling of achievement when you save points and finally open a plateau


    Obviously D3 is obviously took many game principles and artstyle from WOW. I think it's a real shame.

    I sincerely believe people underestimate the educational role of the video games.
    Because of Blizzard's leading position, they have the responsibility to deliver a game of the highest standards for the children, and they totally failed in that regard.
    D3 went the complete Lazy way.

    D2 opens the mind of the player to ancient architecture, to medieval and gothic culture, weapons, evil vs good theme (not just in the christian religion but also in the Maya / Inca act3 environment. The music of d2 enhances perfectly the mood of the player's sense of loneliness, relief, or mystery. For its time, D2 totally nails the balance between playability and historical inspirations.
    Just like in real life, D2 teachs you that working hard, active thinking, and permanent sense of insecurity is rewarding.
    Unlike the cartoonesque approach, showing raw reality (and to some extent sexual and violent content) IS more educative. That's what the good movies are for.

    D3 skips the antique/medieval times, and jumps to 1750-2000 interval. It's just a disaster.
    D3 injects Baroque/classique style everywhere, adds pop-culture references, cartoons animated characters, lasers and fireguns, korean rpg haircuts.

    Anyway, this skilltree fight is such a small problem compared to the lack of density, of richness, and depth of the game. Only d3's infinite wheels of difficulty simulates longevity.
    04/18/2018 11:34 AMPosted by Rashiel
    D2 had the approach that it was the journey to max level that was important, whether or not you actually had something to do at the end of the road was irrelevant.

    So yes, d3 and WoW are similar because they put their focus on endgame rather than leveling, they addressed a problem some had with d1-2.
    Yes that is an important part of the equation I didn't mention. Perhaps it is even more important than what I said about itemization. The two subjects are somewhat dependent on each other, which one leads to which? I don't know but both need to be avoided.
    04/18/2018 09:49 AMPosted by RedCell
    Indeed, resetting skill points in D2 LOD was super easy via Akara or token of absolution.


    Sorry but you can do it only once per difficulty. Then it can take hours to get all tokens. It means:
    • you MUST be careful to choose the skillpoints and must think actively, your choices set a route. (the basics of any RPG)
    • there is a higher feeling of achievement when you save points and finally open a plateau


    Obviously D3 is obviously took many game principles and artstyle from WOW. I think it's a real shame.

    I sincerely believe people underestimate the educational role of the video games.
    Because of Blizzard's leading position, they have the responsibility to deliver a game of the highest standards for the children, and they totally failed in that regard.
    D3 went the complete Lazy way.

    D2 opens the mind of the player to ancient architecture, to medieval and gothic culture, weapons, evil vs good theme (not just in the christian religion but also in the Maya / Inca act3 environment. The music of d2 enhances perfectly the mood of the player's sense of loneliness, relief, or mystery. For its time, D2 totally nails the balance between playability and historical inspirations.
    Just like in real life, D2 teachs you that working hard, active thinking, and permanent sense of insecurity is rewarding.
    Unlike the cartoonesque approach, showing raw reality (and to some extent sexual and violent content) IS more educative. That's what the good movies are for.

    D3 skips the antique/medieval times, and jumps to 1750-2000 interval. It's just a disaster.
    D3 injects Baroque/classique style everywhere, adds pop-culture references, cartoons animated characters, lasers and fireguns, korean rpg haircuts.

    Anyway, this skilltree fight is such a small problem compared to the lack of density, of richness, and depth of the game. Only d3's infinite wheels of difficulty simulates longevity and depth.


    Resetting skill points via tokens didn't take hours. It takes maybe 20 minutes to farm a token, 30 minutes if you're unlucky.

    As to historical accuracy... no kids care about that. If you really want to get into that aspect of it, Diablo 2 had so many weapon and armor types that were flat out wrong.

    Many aspects of WOW were taken from Diablo 2. Blizzard often uses variations of its content in other games. This isn't new in the industry. If any aspect of a game is appealing to a large playerbase, they're going to try to reuse it in other games.

    I did enjoy the art style of the earlier Diablo games more, but even those games included silly things. The Moo Moo Farm being the most obvious comical thing from Diablo 2. Blizzard has a style where they try to incorporate some fun into their games. I think it's important because it helps bring gamers back to reality and to realize it's just a game.
    04/18/2018 12:05 PMPosted by Dreyda
    Resetting skill points via tokens didn't take hours. It takes maybe 20 minutes to farm a token, 30 minutes if you're unlucky.


    Ironically some people argue that is too hard to get the token. You are the first who say that is easy
    These days Blizzard virtually is the McDonalds of the gaming world. A mega corporation making bland, tasteless and samey products designed to appeal to the masses and mercilessly targetting children with shiny colors to become addicted to their poison.

    Fun fact: McDonalds is struggling currently because people are fed up with their garbage.
    04/18/2018 01:16 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
    04/18/2018 12:05 PMPosted by Dreyda
    Resetting skill points via tokens didn't take hours. It takes maybe 20 minutes to farm a token, 30 minutes if you're unlucky.


    Ironically some people argue that is too hard to get the token. You are the first who say that is easy


    It's only hard if you don't have the gear to do it, all you're doing is killing the act bosses (andariel/duriel, mephisto, diablo, and baal). If you're lacking gear or an enigma, then yes it is quite time consuming, but if you have those, you can easily and quickly farm tokens.
    04/18/2018 12:05 PMPosted by Dreyda

    Resetting skill points via tokens didn't take hours. It takes maybe 20 minutes to farm a token, 30 minutes if you're unlucky.

    6 min for baal. Meph takes also 3 min since lvl3 durance is hard to find. andy/duriel 3min. and 30seconds to leave/create to avoid realm down
    multiply by the drop rate 13%: (6+3+3+0.5)*7.6 = 96 min. (edit: I forgot Diablo. You can reduce the times with a high end gear though)
    And these times are possible with teleport/enigma or with a (legit) party for baal.
    Anyway you can't farm the tokens until you reach hell. So it's still 1 reset per difficulty mode until high you are heavy geared enough to farm them. It means you really need to take your time to choose your skillpoints in d2 when you lvl up.

    04/18/2018 12:05 PMPosted by Dreyda

    As to historical accuracy... no kids care about that. If you really want to get into that aspect of it, Diablo 2 had so many weapon and armor types that were flat out wrong.

    I say people should consider this side of the video games. I'm not saying it's accurate. Many people liked ages of empires for instance.
    min for baal. Meph takes also 3 min since lvl3 durance is hard to find. andy/duriel 3min. and 30seconds to leave/create to avoid realm down
    multiply by the drop rate 13%: (6+3+3+0.5)*7.6 = 96 min.
    And these times are possible with teleport/enigma or with a (legit) party for baal.
    Anyway you can't farm the tokens until you reach hell.


    Well said. How much time will require to become strong enough to farm 3 bosses? Have a Enigma and etc? If you can easily farm bosses in less than 3 minutes, you don't need a respec.

    That is my main critique to LOD. Sure, new items, new set transformations are cool, but remember. You are a human fighting a "godlike" prime evil. It can't be easy or quick. This is why i prefer classic. Without charms giving + skill levels and set items giving a lot of bonuses, runewords, etc the game is much more hard.
    IS D3 MORE WOW-LIKE OR DIABLO-LIKE?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRWbIoIR04c

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