Should Diablo get his RPG elements back?

General Discussion
04/27/2018 12:31 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Name one, just a single one RPG element on D3.

Hit Points. Or Life, if you want the D3 specific term. We've been over this before, otherwise. The game is still an RPG, it just doesn't have all the bells and whistles you personally want whether or not they're actually better for the game at large.

I disagree with the emphasis upon "hard choice" because it shifts from playing and picking up what you think you need as you go along, to the more rigid "build planning" model where mistakes can set you back countless hours with (forced) rerolls/leveling a new character.

Gear selection still allows a degree of customization where you could take more of the glass cannon route or become more tanky variants with any given class. The fact D3's endgame is a time crunched DPS race is the real problem with variety and not even so much the fact power is greatly attributed to gear. Certainly, there were some design choices I wouldn't have made were I the director, but you also can't roll in here with...
04/27/2018 10:50 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Blizzard decision to """simplify""" RPG elements trying to appeal to more masses ruined WoW and D3.

...and not expect people to interpret it as an insult, as the inverse of such games being successful only if they're complicated clashes with the fact some find present iterations not only playable, but dare I say, fun. Yet it still carries the implication they're "too simple" to enjoy a "real RPG" as you or others like to espouse.

So, take a step back, deep breath, and go play something else for a bit. We know you're unhappy with the necro. We can only take your word that you recently picked up the game despite the prevalence of reviews out there that would've seemingly told you it's not for you. Stop telling yourself that this might be "THE post" that finally triggers an epiphany in the devs and suddenly everything will be right with the world. You're not the only who does that, and I'd be hard pressed to point out any specific example where such things stuck, even during the more malleable PTR stages. This sort of topic is also nowhere near in the same category of being a home run as, say, the community wanting legendaries to actually drop back in the vanilla days. And that will continue to remain the case as long as the implied elitism props certain groups of players as lessers.
04/27/2018 01:37 PMPosted by PreciousRoy
most RPGs don't make you assign them yourself


Tabletop RPGs would like to have a word with you.
Majority of RPGs =/= Blizzard RPGs.
Facts =/= repetitive trolls.
04/27/2018 10:50 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Blizzard decision to """simplify""" RPG elements trying to appeal to more masses ruined WoW and D3.


Sorry to say this bud but this is the wrong place to post something about diablo. People here don't care about diablo 3 anymore, most of the players that cared are gone and all is left are a bunch of trolls.

Yes diablo3 was dumbed down but mostly because they knew they would release a console version and they wanted it as simple as possible and actually ended up kinda destroying the game.
I'd say it's best to keep tabletop anything out of the discussion as all it takes is one GM to change the rules at their whimsy because they're not shackled to a code base like Diablo, Final Fantasy, Elder Scrolls, Xenoblade, etc..
04/27/2018 02:11 PMPosted by Saidosha
I'd say it's best to keep tabletop anything out of the discussion


Sounds like you grew up way too fast. Some GMs may change character sheets in casual play even mid-game, but at dedicated plays no such thing happens. You can't classify a whole genre by the act of "human factor".

04/27/2018 02:08 PMPosted by Ouroboros
all is left are a bunch of trolls.


I can relate.
04/27/2018 11:09 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Massive downvotes and no arguments about why the actual "fps like" system is good. What is the next? Remove strategy from RTS?

Mass appeal. You can throw all the tantrums you want, but Blizzard's focus isn't on depth, but on catering to the lowest common denominator. Streamlining has worked very well towards that end, not only for Blizzard, but for many other companies as well.

04/27/2018 10:50 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Now, Both WoW and Diablo barely have any character progression. In fact, the character progression and customization. A Firewall spell of D2, more you invest, more damage and radius it will have. A skeleton, more you invest on it, more skeletons and more powerful they will gnna be. On D3, how it works

D3, more you level, the more powerful your character becomes. You still seem to have a lot of trouble understanding D3 is the same thing, with a different approach. Do you really think dropping 20 skill points manually into a skill to make it's numbers larger is any different to automating that process? At best you can claim you like the cozy illusion of control D2 offered, but even your rose-tinted nostalgia goggles can't conceal the fact D2's skill trees were just as rigid, even more so after synergies were implemented.

If anything, at least D3's rune system attempts to actually branch out a skill, even if the balance between runes for any given skill is sloppy as hell.

04/27/2018 10:50 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
- A apprentice necro after learning how to raise skeletons can raise 7 skeletons that scale by some unknown reason with weapon
- An master necro, after decades of training, study, killing the primal evils in his journey to maintain the balance and unlocking god-like powers can raise 7 skeletons that scale by some unknown reason with weapon

Using weapon damage does feel silly from a lore perspective, but it's a fairly practical solution from a mechanics standpoint. I think it would be better if damage itself weren't the determining metric, though, just so your weapon isn't your single most important item. The traditional reliance on core stats seems to make a lot more sense.

04/27/2018 10:50 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
And Blizzard had success on their "simplification"? No. Since Pandaria, they are losing subs on WoW. And after the Nostalrius shut down, they din't get many subs back. In fact, people who like RPG's will simple play move to other private servers or other MMORPG's that din't abandoned RPG elements. Don't get me wrong, play in private servers is not right. Piracy killed Troika games(my favorite developer), and there are ethic solutions aka search another game. It is more ethic and will reward developers who don't abandon RPG elements.

Yet even bleeding subs the game is still the biggest MMO around after 15 years. so yeah, retaining a substantially healthier playerbase than most MMOs out there, despite the overall playerbase shrinking is still a success. There's also the fact a lot of people simply grow tired of the same game after a while. You can whine all you want about streamlining, but it's still not going to change the fact an easy game to get into will appeal to a far larger audience. It will piss oldschool fans, but you're hopelessly delusional if you actually expect a massive corporate juggernaut like Blizzard to cater to the rather unprofitable top 0.1% instead of the casual 99% that's actually filling the arks. It simply doesn't make any sense from a business standpoint, no matter how much you dislike those changes. Whether we like it or not, hardcore appeal is but a niche market in the current gaming industry.

04/27/2018 10:50 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
People who play RPG wanna immersion, character development and hard choices. If you remove it trying to appeal to non RPG players, you will end up with adventure games, not RPG games. Look to Dragon Age. Since DA2 they abandoned most RPG elements and adopted "weapon damage skills" and now... Remove it from RPG games is like remove recoil, windage and bullet drop in a FPS game only because casual players can't deal with it.

Go buy Divinity: Original Sin 2. Great oldschool RPG. There's also Pillars of Eternity 2 coming soon. I've even been having a blast recently replaying the Baldur's Gate saga.
Sounds like you grew up way too fast. Some GMs may change character sheets in casual play even mid-game, but at dedicated plays no such thing happens. You can't classify a whole genre by the act of "human factor".


Not even limiting it to mid-game, but also tweaks before the first dice roll that everyone else agrees to, or at least complies with for the sake of playing. It's a concept no different than card games banning certain ones because they feel they're OP or something.

Even D&D has changed over time, and you'll probably have people who prefer 2nd edition over 3rd, and so on. And while the number of "amateur" table-top games will certainly exceed "professional" video game counterparts, my main point still stands that we can't really change the rules in our video games. All we can do is play differently within them if modding is not an option.
04/27/2018 11:41 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
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Dude, I know we discussed this but after this point they can not change main systems, yet as I hope they could change how they interact with each other. Skill system and item system need more interaction between each other, that's for sure. A self-sustained loothunt can't be made as long as there's a huge powergap between gear qualities. Scrapped Talisman and Jewels could be added for smaller item chase. Some scrapped ideas can be salvaged and implemented without disturbing the game's current playerbase.

That's what I could think of, but none of these could help this game to become an RPG at all. What this game needs is a new expansion, and possibly we won't see that. Not this Blizzcon, neither at the next. I'd really like that one Community Manager to appear and call me "REKT" but it won't happen either.


Blizzard don't make a Vanilla WoW server despite losing millions of subs to other MMO's like EQ(din't abandoned RPG elements) and private servers, i really expect that they will write the progression and re balance d3? Obvious NO. An vanilla wow server for then is much more easier than my suggestion. I only like read butthurt of console peasants who never played a single true RPG in their lives...


They didn't lose millions of subs to other games.
They lost them due to the direction of the game.
04/27/2018 01:37 PMPosted by PreciousRoy
health and damage being displayed as numerical values, towns with npcs and shops, attributes like strength and dexterity (just because you don't assign them yourself doesn't make it not an RPG, again, most RPGs don't make you assign them yourself).


No assign then yourself is present on majority of RPG's? If you look to top scores on RPG's on Metacritic ( http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/genre/userscore/role-playing/pc?view=condensed ) the majority of then allow you to customize your character. BG2, Planetscape torment, VtMB, etc

God of War have NPC, health and damage in numeric numbers, etc; is GoW IV an RPG???

Hit Points. Or Life, if you want the D3 specific term.


Street Fighter and God of War have HP bars. They are RPG?

04/27/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Saidosha
Yet it still carries the implication they're "too simple" to enjoy a "real RPG" as you or others like to espouse.


Consoles are not good for RPG's. I can't imagine someone playing NWN1 in consoles, Ultima port for snes was terrible and removed a lot of things and fallout become a generic shooter tanks to console market.

04/27/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Saidosha
We know you're unhappy with the necro.


No, in fact necromancer is one of few things that i liked in D3. I loved the blood skills. IMHO blood rush skill is much more interesting than farm for enigma... And liked how most skills works on D3. I only miss few IA curses, Iron Maiden, bone wall and bone prison but overall, loved the new blood skills.

Do you really think dropping 20 skill points manually into a skill to make it's numbers larger is any different to automating that process?


Dump points into a skill don't change only his damage. Look to fire wall skill, more you invest, more radius will have. Look to bone wall. At level one costs much mana and barely stop any attack, at max level can sustain a lot of attacks and gives synergies to bone spear/bone spirit.

Also you don't automate the process. You don't become better or worse with any skill

Using weapon damage does feel silly from a lore perspective, but it's a fairly practical solution from a mechanics standpoint


Is not a practical solution. In fact, most games that have skill damage = weapon damage becomes unbalanced and the weapon become the unique thing on gears that matters, look to DA:2.

Yet even bleeding subs the game is still the biggest MMO around after 15 years. so yeah, retaining a substantially healthier playerbase than most MMOs out there, despite the overall playerbase shrinking is still a success. There's also the fact a lot of people simply grow tired of the same game after a while.


I will make an analogy. Look to google+. People use facebook over G+ because all of your friends are on FB. The same apply to WoW. If all of your friends play WoW, even if they remove RPG elements, play with friends any game is much more fun than play solo....

WoW still the most popular mmorpg in world but will become the second most played mmo soon...

if you actually expect a massive corporate juggernaut like Blizzard to cater to the rather unprofitable top 0.1% instead of the casual 99% that's actually filling the arks.


This is not truth. In fact Blizzard is losing subs on WoW after pandaria. What is the next? Make every piece in a chess game the same because "chess is too complicated to an 70 IQ guy"? People who play RPG wanna immersion and hard choices. Remove it from RPG is like remove aiming and recoil management requirement in a shooter, or remove strategy from a RTS.

You need to satisfy people who purchase your products. Don't try to sell meal to a vegan.

04/27/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Go buy Divinity: Original Sin 2. Great oldschool RPG. There's also Pillars of Eternity 2 coming soon. I've even been having a blast recently replaying the Baldur's Gate saga.


DO:S is a good RPG but still don't give the same freedom of a game like IWD or Arcanum. In IWD i can have an army of summons, on DO:S only one summon to exemplify. I love freedom to do what i want in RPG.

Pathfinder:Kingmaker is a game that i will love to play.

04/27/2018 03:01 PMPosted by Saidosha
Even D&D has changed over time, and you'll probably have people who prefer 2nd edition over 3rd, and so on.


Good to mention D&D because D&D 4 edition tried to remove RPG features and... Thanks to it we have Pathfinder. IMHO Pathfinder is better balanced than DnD.

For example, dragon disciple class. It increases the caster level while on D&D 3.5 it won't increase, so it become useless for casters...

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.html

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm

On D&D 5e, they fixed that problems and now DnD is an RPG again.
hopefully D4 will use vr ;)
Keep fighting the good fight victor. If we don't complain they will completely destroy another Diablo 4. That would utterly destroy the legacy of D1 and D2.

LOL at these people saying health points or town portals make it an rpg. What a joke.
04/27/2018 11:09 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Massive downvotes and no arguments about why the actual "fps like" system is good. What is the next? Remove strategy from RTS?
frustrated typical little kid , the forum is more entertaining of the game lol , dont waste your time it d3 go play d2 or poe , btw watch this something is coming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD175c2dH48
04/27/2018 12:31 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Name one, just a single one RPG element on D3.

Question. Does RPG stand for role playing game?
and if so when you pick the class you are going to play isn't that the role you are playing? otherwise wouldn't they just give you a straight human and you get to pick your skills along the way like first level. choose to be a wizard then a couple of level later pick a couple of Demon hunter skills and a few levels later pick some barbarian skills for added toughness
All through the Diablo franchise you had to pick one class and be stuck in that class and it doesn't matter what choices you wanted to make you are stuck playing the one class even though you might want to learn skills from other classes
Even your lovable D2 you are still stuck playing a single class even though you want to add skills from different classes
Maybe the game you really want is grim dawn at least with that game you can have your character pick skills from 2 classes
04/27/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Steve
04/27/2018 12:31 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Name one, just a single one RPG element on D3.

Question. Does RPG stand for role playing game?
and if so when you pick the class you are going to play isn't that the role you are playing? otherwise wouldn't they just give you a straight human and you get to pick your skills along the way like first level. choose to be a wizard then a couple of level later pick a couple of Demon hunter skills and a few levels later pick some barbarian skills for added toughness
All through the Diablo franchise you had to pick one class and be stuck in that class and it doesn't matter what choices you wanted to make you are stuck playing the one class even though you might want to learn skills from other classes
Even your lovable D2 you are still stuck playing a single class even though you want to add skills from different classes
Maybe the game you really want is grim dawn at least with that game you can have your character pick skills from 2 classes


Battlefield 1 have classes. It is an RPG now?

Fallout New vegas is an Shooter + RPG. If you try use AMR(anti materiel rifle) without a high skill in firearms and low stats, you will have to deal with a drunk sway and hit anything will be hard. If you have very low INT, people will react differently.

If you let the player swap "perks" and remove attributes/skill progression, then fallout will have no character progression...
This is not truth. In fact Blizzard is losing subs on WoW after pandaria. What is the next? Make every piece in a chess game the same because "chess is too complicated to an 70 IQ guy"? People who play RPG wanna immersion and hard choices. Remove it from RPG is like remove aiming and recoil management requirement in a shooter, or remove strategy from a RTS.

You need to satisfy people who purchase your products. Don't try to sell meal to a vegan.

WoW's been bleeding subs since way before Pandaria, yet the game still has the largest playerbase of any MMO in the market. You don't have to like it, but there are still A LOT of people that like WoW, many of which may happen to be first acquainted with the game at that point.

Your mistake is assuming you're part of the target audience Blizzard aims at nowadays. Whether you hate it or not is irrelevant. Fact of the matter is, hardcore RPG fans haven't been that demographic for a very long time now. There's a reason why the most popular games are the most easily accessible ones, even more so in a day and age where the attention span of the average gamer seems to be shrinking more and more every day. A lot of people will inevitably find the amount of depth you crave detrimental to their own experience, and that happens to count towards these companies' marketing focus testing research.

If you want a more in-depth experience, I'm afraid you won't be finding that from Blizzard, or any other big publisher's first party lineup, for that matter. You must understand these big companies are first and foremost businesses, and as such, they'll gravitate towards whatever yields the highest profits, which happens to be casual gamers, no matter how much you hate it.

Your RTS losing it's identity is very well applicable to Blizzard as well. Many oldschool SC fans and pros dislike SC2 because of the way it became a glorified deathball simulator with explicit hard counters and an over-streamlined management environment. The fact so many things were streamlined also lowered drastically the skill ceiling for competitive play, to the point where many still consider Brood War to be the better game. In a way, you can indeed see SC2 has been a downgrade for a lot of these folks, yet Blizzard simply followed the money.

You'll see similar symptoms in many other popular franchises. It's simply the natural flow of business as companies grow. It's actually one of the reasons why many developers decide to leave these companies to go back to their roots and develop their own thing exactly as they want it, without marketing getting in the way of their creative vision.
04/27/2018 05:24 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Battlefield 1 have classes. It is an RPG now?Fallout New vegas is an Shooter + RPG. If you try use AMR(anti materiel rifle) without a high skill in firearms and low stats, you will have to deal with a drunk sway and hit anything will be hard. If you have very low INT, people will react differently.If you let the player swap "perks" and remove attributes/skill progression, then fallout will have no character progression...


So If I roll up a sorceress in D2 I'm not role playing because according to you, I'm not role playing if I roll up a wizard in D3

Just because the skills are set up differently to what you like doesn't stop it from being an RPG.

You are just having a big cry because in D3 you don't have to roll up a whole new character to try out a different build like you do in D2 and have to roll up a new character in D2 if you made a mistake and placed a skill point in the wrong place
04/27/2018 06:58 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Whether you hate it or not is irrelevant. Fact of the matter is, hardcore RPG fans


Diablo 2 is not a hardcore RPG.

04/27/2018 06:58 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
There's a reason why the most popular games are the most easily accessible ones,


What RPG franchise made sucess trying to sell "meal to vegans"? Dragon Age? Mass Effect? Name one... There are a lot of market for adventure games, you don't need to change an RPG into a adventure game to sell.

About WoW, Bliz announced an Classic server.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnvakCJN2Is

So probably the future of Diablo is tied to the future of WoW. Let's suppose that they put a classic game with all RPG elements back on WoW. If they recover a great amount of subs, they will see the obvious; RPG fans wanna play RPG games. But if the population don't play on "legacy servers", then i will be forced to admit that i an wrong. That people wanna adventure and RPG elements only serve to complicate the adventure and only liked old games by nostalgia.
Street Fighter and God of War have HP bars. They are RPG?

When they start boasting level ups and equipment that can modify HP stats, I'd say they're getting closer. Until then, their focus is fighting. The lines between various genres is and has been blurring for a lone time, otherwise.

04/27/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Steve
Question. Does RPG stand for role playing game?

Some people cling to the mechanical aspect of defining an RPG, like our OP buddy here, but my stance has been more in prioritizing the telling of a story. Coincidentally, this fits snugly with the noted fighting games because telling a story has pretty much never, ever been a strength within that genre, with info coming more from instruction booklets or profile sections than actually playing the game.

Diablo has also been fairly poor on story delivery, relying more on players filling in the blanks with their own thoughts and breadcrumb deliveries, with more epic moments usually relegated to movies at the close of an act or the game itself. Some characters may find endearment due to the mix of zingers and the acting delivery, but it's really hard to assert they mean much when they spend most of their time in the same spot(s) in their respective town hub. Funnily enough, D3 does shake this up by having Leah tag along with us, meeting Tyrael in the battlefields, and so on, but people too often focus on the story D3 delivered rather than acknowledging that Blizz did improve on story/lore delivery in some aspects.

Consoles are not good for RPG's.

Stop with this nonsense. I've scolded you about it before and continually trying to justify it makes you more and more the fool. Consoles are merely specialized PCs that do or don't do what they're coded to via a game's instructions. Should I remind people that you don't play JRPGs and over-glorify the WRPG, effectively trying to say a significant chunk of the console RPG market "doesn't count"? Because they still count. They still tell stories. They still have stats/classes/skills/gear and combat systems that span the gamut from turn-based to chaotic real-time. They're still fun and not all emo teenage swordsmen MCs.
"Classic Mode" gaming is a fad. Feel free to screenshot this, but the more old games try to (re)release things as they were without QoL adjustments and updates, the more you're going to see people realize why changes need to happen. Some will even go on to argue about what point of "classic" is the best within a specific title, like D2 does with pre-LoD or pre-synergy.

Trying to tap into that hardcore nostalgia element didn't work out too well for Wildstar, as no one wanted to spend dozens of hours just to get a raid attempt that someone else could easily blow for them and force them back into the process anew. Some people may be curious relative to WoW (assuming true classic with no tweaks), sure, while those who believe the "classic" mode the superior will soon find populations dwindling and inevitably finding it difficult to group content without server merges or good cross-server matchmaking.

Mechanically, it's just like splitting players here between season, non-season, and even the hardcore variants. The moment one mode seems to receive more development focus (like seasonal legendaries), fans of the others will get upset. "But classic private servers are popular, so it'll be successful!" some may claim, but I can bet you people are playing those because they're free and not because they're classic. Present people with fully up-to-date current builds and they'd do just as well, maybe better. Just keeping up-to-date is a pain because hosts actually need some coding knowledge to recreate content, and people with that are probably rarer still with most just utilizing shared resources within the given community.

RIFT tried racing Blizz to the finish line in this regard, and they're suffering because of it. Too much focus has been taken away from the Live servers with little to no content update for months now. Meanwhile, the classic mode actually isn't truly how the game was due to changes made to the engine and skill tress over time, so it's not like people are actually getting the same experience. Hurdles like this will be tackled in their own way with Blizz, and making it all work is likely far more complicated than just pulling up some old builds from a dusty hard drive.
04/27/2018 10:50 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
People who play RPG wanna immersion, character development and hard choices.

D3 has plenty of this.

You bring up the weapon and skills thing but I fail to see why that's important. Why do I need to see my characters ability with skills while naked when there's no in game mechanics built around that? If D3 continued the D2 death penalty system then sure but without it why on Earth should the redo damage calculations to reflect power when not holding a weapon?

Should I start tearing apart Diablo 2's immersion because Blizzard never gave me the ability to build a camp and rest, eat and sleep during my adventure? There's no mechanic point to code that stuff into D2 so why would I expect them to do stuff like this just to increase player immersion?

04/27/2018 10:50 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
People who play RPG wanna immersion, character development and hard choices. If you remove it trying to appeal to non RPG players, you will end up with adventure games, not RPG games

Your statement is true but it doesn't apply to Diablo 3.

D3 has tons of immersion through its world, characters that stick to their theme, lore, atmosphere and story. If something as petty as an axe being in your hand = power is all you need to kill immersion then that's on you. We could be just as petty about nitpicks in D1 and D2 to say neither of those games succeed on immersion as well.

Diablo 3's entire game is built around character development and hard choices. I suppose you could question whether or not he choices are hard but I'd say the same is true for your choices in prior Diablo titles as well.

Examples of choices and character development that occurs in D3
- skill choices
- highly limited set choices
- fairly limited legendary proc benefit choices
- passives choices
- cube choices
- stat choices...this is a huge one because it makes a massive difference on play style
- game play choices. In D3 you can't potion spam your way through all problems so cooldowns cause you to employ more tactics than you ever used in D2.
- Overall build choices...do you want to focus on speed, challenge rifts, hybrid play? Solo or Group? The game is too complex to excel at everything at once.

For the record I'm not trying to say or imply that D3 is more complex an RPG than D1 or D2. I'm merely pointing out that any claim or implication that D3 is somehow barely an RPG and more of an adventure game is ridiculous. You could say D3 is slightly dumbed down from D2 and that's fine...but at the end of the day its only slightly dumbed down. The ability to assign skill points in one game versus having those skill points be a part of the gear rolls in the other is not that big a difference. You're accomplishing the same end game but are simply getting there a different way. The same goes with leveling vit/resource and the like. I don't need to assign points to heavily influence these things in an RPG. D3 does this through your gear, skill and passive choices.

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