Removing Sets would bring life to the game

General Discussion
Prev 1 2 3 4 9 Next
I really like sets and the flavor they bring to each class and build. Removing them entirely is not a very good solution in my opinion. I'm sure we can come up with something better to improve upon the impact they have on build variety.
You can play ANY build you want. Just don't expect to make the leaderboards, or pull any records. End of the day, the game is the exact same thing whether you do GR10 or GR100.
05/24/2018 08:03 AMPosted by DonMartin
I really like sets and the flavor they bring to each class and build. Removing them entirely is not a very good solution in my opinion. I'm sure we can come up with something better to improve upon the impact they have on build variety.


The truth is, itemization has always been a mess.

-Sets dictate which skills can be used. They usually take 5-6 precious slot (not counting F&R, Endless Walk, etc).
-Legendary items with +XXX% to skill Y dictate which skill in your limited pool of choice should be used. They usually take 2-3 item slot.

In the end, you don't really have flexibility. The cube was a bandaid to this problem.

Hell, you even got obvious imbalance (look at WD's timed Gargantuan vs Permanent cold one... the permanent one deals more damage than the timed one. Even a kid would see that it's wrong).

We always had crazy terrible itemization. It started in D3 Vanilla and it continues in RoS. They blamed the AH for their itemization, but the truth is that they just can't seem to get it right.

In D3V, WD weapons could roll COLD damage while not being able to benefit from it at all. Reminder: In D3V, weapons with cold damage suffered a damage penalty, but would apply "chill" on hit (for many attacks). Blade of Prophecy could roll Max Discipline --- a 2 handed Melee weapon rolling DH affixes... Reminder: DH cannot use 2 handed melee weapon! Prior to the introduction of Paragon, a Legendary Amulet (ilvl 60) could roll +XP per kill! There as no Paragon at that time thus was an useless affix. Etc.

I haven't even touched the fact that DH set items could roll Strength or Int... the same with other classes...

In RoS, it took them years to fix some obvious things --- SoJ could roll poison damage for DH despite having removed poison from their runes. Frosties remained in the Crusader Smart Loot tables for years. Did they even remove Thundergod's Fury from the WD's? Wiz has a "lighting" helm that can roll skills with NO lightning runes.

The list goes on and on.

I have very little faith that the team that worked on Itemization has any idea of what they are doing.

I mean, do they take notes when something's not right? Playing WD and getting Thundergod's Fury while gambling. Easy fix. Takes 1 day at most. Minor changes like that can take years to happen...
Players wouldn't like the huge nerf to sets. Because more would have to be done than just nerfing or removing sets. Then you would have to remove the orange text along with any other buff to skills that the legendaries give. But doing that would mean that we would go right back to using just the same BiS legendaries for all classes and all builds.

Mempo of Twilight
Tal Rasha's chest
Inna's Pants
Vile Ward
The Witching Hour
Lacuni's Prowlers

There might even be a ring that has attack speed on it but I have forgotten if that ring still has attack speed on it by default.

For weapons it would probably be between The Furnance or Echoing Fury if you are going by Vanilla Standards. So that won't be a good idea.
@shurgosa
So in your essay are you saying that If I like running around with my necromancer at T6, and don't care about doing a GR over 70, or having perfect gear, or having legendary gems at level 100, I am some how playing the game wrong and hate playing the game?
As someone who was not much into diablos end game and recently returned, I have to agree with OP. What I found when diescting diablos end game and devoting some time to the grind was that, without set pieces, with just good legendaries your DPS is S*#T. Open world was rough, normal rifts I could probably solo, but greater rifts were a team effort. As soon as I was introduced to the power of sets and I formed my first 6 piece (maybe one ancient, no optimization in stat re-rolls, no gems) I was dominating. I was one shotting elite packs, open world stuff was effortless. When I first put on my 6 piece and got most but not all of my needed effects I went to see what I could do with others as far as greater rifts. It wasn't long before a GR55 we started was abandoned by everyone else and I was left to solo it..and solo it I did under the time limit!

My characters dps levels increased by 10'000% just by stepping DOWN from legendaries with great stats and useful effects to set pieces. That is just ridiculous. I'm having fun for now but because breaking this set up would break all my dps, the only thing I can do to change the way I play now is by changing to another set which buffs a different skill up by %6000. That is no way to run a game.
05/24/2018 10:14 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
Players wouldn't like the huge nerf to sets. Because more would have to be done than just nerfing or removing sets. Then you would have to remove the orange text along with any other buff to skills that the legendaries give. But doing that would mean that we would go right back to using just the same BiS legendaries for all classes and all builds.

Mempo of Twilight
Tal Rasha's chest
Inna's Pants
Vile Ward
The Witching Hour
Lacuni's Prowlers

There might even be a ring that has attack speed on it but I have forgotten if that ring still has attack speed on it by default.

For weapons it would probably be between The Furnance or Echoing Fury if you are going by Vanilla Standards. So that won't be a good idea.


Technically speaking, you just need Legendary Items to "deal damage differently".

Firewalkers is a good source of damage (when leveling up). How can you compete against that (assuming that itemization gets "revamp", of course)? You could have boots that make ET (Wizard) pursue a nearby target. You aren't increasing the damage of the ET itself, but each ET will deal, on average, more damage. You could have another pair of boots that modify ET to be centered on you. Basically, YOU choose where it goes by going where you need to go.

One pair of boots is for ranged play. One pair is for melee play. Both cannot be used at the same time (well you can, but it will just be centered around you).

Now, it can be combined with the existing Bracers, which pulls enemies towards you. One will bring enemies ON you, making EB especially interesting when combined with ET. Another will pull enemies (potentially) on a desired location, making skills like Meteor and Hydra interesting.

You can create a completely opposite Bracers --- Instead of pulling it, ET will push enemies away. When you combine it with those Boots that make ET centered around you, you get an "ET" armor that push melee monsters away from you!

There are many ways of playing with skills. You can make them deal damage differently. You can change their utility. You can do many more things than just... increasing damage.

The fatal mistake of attaching "+XXX%" to skill Y is that those items are no longer "optional", but mandatory if you want to deal damage.
05/24/2018 07:00 AMPosted by UngivenFame
05/24/2018 03:10 AMPosted by jay

Troll thread. If you want a game with no sets and is also a safe space experience go play WoW with the rest of the kiddies.
Talk about Trolling...

Diablo is the safest space of them all.

There is really only one or two choices now. Its no different. If the had designed 3 legendary items instead of all these sets... we would be good.


I could list eight things off the top of my head that make WoW much more safe space than this game. Really though I only need to list one. No time gating.

Here is a bonus, they havent nerfed paragon. Legion paragon got nerfed in several ways every patch.

One more, for kicks. While the itemization in this game is far from perfect it is no where near as shallow as it is in WoW in regards to how many stats you get to work with and have to budget for.I mean the number of stat rolls that come on a piece of gear. Not to mention how they affect different builds of the same class. WoW is far more cookie cutter than D3 with gear.

As to your point about three legendary items, theyd be just as mandatory and as "limiting" as sets with legendary items are now. That's how optimization works. I and many others just saw that play out in Legion. Get leg items x,y,z or your dps is vastly sub par. This makes your point not a point but wishful obtuse thinking.
I like sets because they open up gameplay diversity. If it wasn't for the fact that you need 6p to make it happen, how would you balance making your palm explode when you use seven sided strike ? How would you balance using soul harvest to consume all DoTs the mobs is under the effect of ?
Some sets are garbage (akkhan, IK, SWK, Inna, etc). The sets that are actually good are sets that are designed to change the gameplay to something different while improving it.
I mean, making stuff blow up with exploding palm as a monk is fun. In order to have that, you need something that triggers the palm to explode. Either you can kill a mob (but then why have the palm at all ?) or something to trigger the explosion while not killing anything.
05/24/2018 10:43 AMPosted by Kikaha
I like sets because they open up gameplay diversity. If it wasn't for the fact that you need 6p to make it happen, how would you balance making your palm explode when you use seven sided strike ? How would you balance using soul harvest to consume all DoTs the mobs is under the effect of ?
Some sets are garbage (akkhan, IK, SWK, Inna, etc). The sets that are actually good are sets that are designed to change the gameplay to something different while improving it.
I mean, making stuff blow up with exploding palm as a monk is fun. In order to have that, you need something that triggers the palm to explode. Either you can kill a mob (but then why have the palm at all ?) or something to trigger the explosion while not killing anything.


I won't pretend to have all the answers, but "how do you balance those kind of things?" --- By making each individual Legendary Power strong enough that exchanging 5-6 powerful Legendary Power for 2-3 Insane Powers become somewhat equivalent.

I realize that something will always come out on top. That's fine. However, it shouldn't be 1000x more powerful...
Here's a thought bring all the sets up to each others damage output so, all the sets are the same!
05/24/2018 10:53 AMPosted by SeaBigBear
Here's a thought bring all the sets up to each others damage output so, all the sets are the same!


LON has taught us something --- 1300% is not equivalent for every class.
05/24/2018 10:56 AMPosted by DoomBringer
05/24/2018 10:53 AMPosted by SeaBigBear
Here's a thought bring all the sets up to each others damage output so, all the sets are the same!


LON has taught us something --- 1300% is not equivalent for every class.


your right on lon not being equal for all classes. I'm still of the opinion that it should be a 3pc set and have a neck slot option. so that we can have 2 Lego rings because right now default lon builds use basically only coe in cube.

I actually really enjoy sets, and I still think there is more fine tuning that can be done. but I don't think it's the sets that need fine tuning. The skills need to be adjusted so that at least each rune is worth looking at when deciding on how to play a set instead of 1 over buffed rune being such a default choice. Take EP for example everyone uses the cold rune that blows everything up on the screen over all the other runs because you get so much more bang for your buck out of it.

that being said sunwoko haveing a 10k% damage bonus when using the sweeping wind weapon, compared to say vyr's which has a small multiplier of 1% per archon stack. meaning you would have to have 10000 stacks to have same bonus. is not balanced. don't get me wrong vyr's can still do a decent solo, but it isn't sunwoko.
05/24/2018 10:38 AMPosted by jay

As to your point about three legendary items, theyd be just as mandatory and as "limiting" as sets with legendary items are now. That's how optimization works. I and many others just saw that play out in Legion. Get leg items x,y,z or your dps is vastly sub par. This makes your point not a point but wishful obtuse thinking.
Uh... no. If we took the ~thirty sets, instead made three legendaries (not class specific) instead of each set, that would 90 legendary items = 7 legendary items per slot. Some slots already have 30+ legendary options, other slots have about 10. With well designed legendaries (ie. not specifically geared toward one skill but rather a more general playstyle).

Thats many options. Combinations are possible because they aren't damn sets anymore.
Yes but either you lose the uniqueness of gameplay or you're bound to have brutally OP items and just good items. If you're making an item that alone says "SSS make your palm explodes" or "Soul harvest now consumes all dots and deal that much damage instantly", the item will be way, way, way more broken than if the effect is given to you through 6 pieces you have to wear.
Just think about it.
Sweep attack crusader :
- usual weapon/shield combo
- 6p akkhan (through 3 leg. items)
- 6p roland (through 3 leg. items)
Boom, instant best set in the game for crusader. Why ? Because it gets the bonus effect from 2 sets. On the other hand, condemn - stays exactly the same as it is right now, because only one set is of any effect on it.
Picking and matching sets willy nilly will break the game balance way more than having some sets that are stronger and some that are weaker.

Also, I think most people have the wrong approach to sets. Sets are not here to lock a skill in place in your skillbar. You should decide what skill you want on your skillbar and choose a set in consequence so that you maximise said skill. If you want to play exploding palm, you check every available sets, and in the end decide on Uliana because it is the most suited to buff exploding palm. You don't look at Uliana and say "Oh, I'll play exploding palm with this set". That's just stupid.
05/24/2018 11:30 AMPosted by Kikaha
Also, I think most people have the wrong approach to sets. Sets are not here to lock a skill in place in your skillbar. You should decide what skill you want on your skillbar and choose a set in consequence so that you maximise said skill. If you want to play exploding palm, you check every available sets, and in the end decide on Uliana because it is the most suited to buff exploding palm. You don't look at Uliana and say "Oh, I'll play exploding palm with this set". That's just stupid.


This kinda makes sence. but when sets tell you that x,y,z skills are buffed by this set. Then you only have xyz skills to look at for you bar.

just to make sure I'm understanding the OP correctly. Is this being suggested that the 2pc 4pc and 6pc bonus be done in 2ps mini sets? so that you could in theory have the 6pc bonus to 3 of the class sets active at once? if so that would be beyond broken.
05/24/2018 10:38 AMPosted by DoomBringer
Technically speaking, you just need Legendary Items to "deal damage differently".


Still I don't think that without sets changing legendaries will give you the same power that sets gives. That huge of a nerf is something that the players won't accept. There is no way around it short of a huge overhaul to the game which carries its own risks.
05/24/2018 12:03 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
05/24/2018 10:38 AMPosted by DoomBringer
Technically speaking, you just need Legendary Items to "deal damage differently".


Still I don't think that without sets changing legendaries will give you the same power that sets gives. That huge of a nerf is something that the players won't accept. There is no way around it short of a huge overhaul to the game which carries its own risks.


It's probably too late for D3, seeing how little support it gets. It's just my hope that any future Diablo game doesn't follow the disastrous example of D3's itemization.
D3 itemization has always been a joke.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum