Diablo 3's Mechanics Are Comparatively Bad

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I have been playing Diablo 2 for a few weeks now (started with a Sorceress until I was geared enough to have a HDin). It amazes me how shallow the gameplay in Diablo 3 is. No hit recovery, no frozen/cold effects, no monster resistances, no useful block mechanics. What happened? All of these things were in Diablo 2 from the very beginning, and they serve an integral role in combat.

There are no ranged classes in D3. Every single character needs to be able to stand in the middle of a pack of monsters to progress to any kind of meaningful difficulty (and the difficulty is another giant issue). Hit recovery is one of the most noticeable mechanics that has been lost. This was a key survivability mechanic for caster classes. You need to be able to do enough damage (> 1/12 enemy's health) so that they go through their hit recovery animation, which effectively turns any powerful attack into a mini-stun. This is the cradle of ranged classes until you are able to get uber gear (the end goal is the same, the journey there is completely stripped of all meaning).

Lack of blocking? This was huge in Diablo 2, and was the reason you would take Dexterity as a caster class. You take enough Strength to use your equipment, enough Dex. to get 75% block, and then the rest in Vitality. There was no point in putting points into Energy because you could hold out on mana potions until you had the appropriate gear (something like Insight on a caster's mercenary for mana regeneration). However, the gear you had strongly influenced how many stat points you would need to allocate into each. Where are all of these intricacies? Diablo 3 is just stupid simple compared to Diablo 2 and it shows at every level of combat.

Oh and what the hell is with the abundance of channeling abilities? How is that fun? I am hard pressed to think of a single channeled ability in Diablo 2. There weren't even cooldowns, save for a handful of abilities (Frozen Orb, Meteor). It amazes me how people can even compare the two games Diablo 2 is just on an entirely other level. In my opinion Diablo 2 is still, by far, the best ARPG there is. How do you turn Picasso into macaroni pictures Blizzard?
Fun happened
Because a larger population want a game that's also easier to play.

The depth of D2 does not appeal to every gamer. Many prefer to keep the game simpler.

In its way, D3 has a much better battle system in place as compensation. The depth may not be there, but the interaction is much more fluid.

Take POE for example. They pretty much went even further with the depth than D2 did. But their game play is a mess (in my opinion) compared to even D2, let alone D3. I couldn't stand playing that game. Sure, the depth was nice, having lots of options to tweak on your character, but ultimately, it felt to me to be too hands on, and not as fun to just pick up nearly anything and go at it.

Different strokes for different folks.

I have attempted to play D2 a few times since D3 came out. I can't even stand to play it more than 15 minutes before I'm bored and wondering why I'm torturing myself and end up back to D3. Though these days I have been playing more OW... lol

Game on.
If that is how you feel the may I suggest you go play Diablo II? There is no denying that D2 stands above most in the terms of fun, but some of us have had fun in all iteration of Diablo games, including D3.

Yes, D3 works differently, has other skills and such, but D2 turned into a crap fest of mixed skills and other goofy nonsense like monster immunities that made solo play, my preferred style, absolutely impossible.

I eventually got bored with D2, and I enjoy D3 right now. I will play D3. You can play D2.
05/16/2018 06:10 PMPosted by steve
You take enough Strength to use your equipment, enough Dex. to get 75% block, and then the rest in Vitality. There was no point in putting points into Energy
D2's attribute system is one of its worst parts. Let's say I'm a Sorceress and I want to cast a bunch of spells. Instead of investing points in casting spells, I'm supposed to look up what end game armor I want and make sure I have enough strength to wear it. Rerolls did mitigate it some when they were added.

05/16/2018 06:10 PMPosted by steve
Oh and what the hell is with the abundance of channeling abilities? How is that fun?
Disintegrate is a death laser that fires out of your hand. How is that not fun?

05/16/2018 06:10 PMPosted by steve
Where are all of these intricacies?
If needless complexity that you have to research outside of the game is what you like, then you might try Path of Exile.
D2's attribute system is one of its worst parts. Let's say I'm a Sorceress and I want to cast a bunch of spells. Instead of investing points in casting spells, I'm supposed to look up what end game armor I want and make sure I have enough strength to wear it. Rerolls did mitigate it some when they were added.


You don't invest attribute points into casting spells... you invest skill points.... you don't have to look up any armor at all but as a Sorceress I didn't put many points into Strength (wear low strength req. armor as a result, not whatever I want as if my decisions don't matter). I put more points than I should have into Energy until I made it to Hell where I rerolled at Akara and had already gotten pretty decent gear from playing with others. Being able to reroll at the beginning of a difficulty is better than being able to reroll whenever, in that infinite rerolls make your choices more like adjusting game settings than an actual "build".

Disintegrate is a death laser that fires out of your hand. How is that not fun?


Because at high difficulties it's mostly useless. It's used for applying fire damage for Firebird's set more than it's the focus of a build. It's more of a tickle beam than a death laser at that difficulty. The problem is that Disintigrate isn't used like Bone Spear or Blessed Hammer are (as the primary source of damage), instead it's used to simply apply a stat on the enemy monster. How is that fun?

Disintigrate is fun when you're level 21 or whenever you get it, and after that it progressively gets less and less fun. In Diablo II skills get more fun.

If needless complexity that you have to research outside of the game is what you like, then you might try Path of Exile.


Mechanics aren't "needless complexity". Why don't you go play "Candy Crush" if you don't like thinking or moving?
05/16/2018 06:10 PMPosted by steve
There are no ranged classes in D3. Every single character needs to be able to stand in the middle of a pack of monsters to progress to any kind of meaningful difficulty


the hunter is ranged dude...and anyone can be range...theres builds and options make u range...
05/16/2018 06:27 PMPosted by Razorphilia
If needless complexity that you have to research outside of the game is what you like, then you might try Path of Exile.


RPGS of basically any flavour can be branded as needless complexity.
That's a sorry excuse to take an RPG franchise and dumb it down for kids.

if you want a shallow simple game, dont bother with RPGs at all.
otherwise look what happens; D3 is boiled down to a childs action game so that its new simple little fanbase is not turned away from all the interwoven character and item growth systems.

D3 was supposed to be a game where it was interesting and exciting to create and discover characters and items, and tweak and tailor them to be fun to play.
It is not.
And it's this idiotic appeal to simplicity and childlike fear and hate of complexity that the mainstream fans have brought over by the truckload that is to blame.
05/16/2018 06:59 PMPosted by steve
You don't invest attribute points into casting spells...
05/16/2018 06:59 PMPosted by steve
I put more points than I should have into Energy
>< hurr durr

05/16/2018 06:59 PMPosted by steve
Disintigrate is fun when you're level 21
See? You already knew it was fun, silly. It gets even more fun as you learn abilities and find legendaries that synergize with it.

05/16/2018 06:59 PMPosted by steve
Why don't you go play "Candy Crush" if you don't like thinking or moving?
05/16/2018 07:58 PMPosted by Shurgosa
idiotic appeal to simplicity and childlike fear
Very "intelligent".
Different team, skills, vision. D3 has no commonality with its predecessors.
I don't play D2 as much as I used to, but I still log in enough to keep my Normal lvl 82 trap assassin alive, well, and able to kill every boss in the game solo. I haven't played D2 ladder in years though. No way do I want to go through the 3 difficulty leveling process there again.

To be viable anywhere in Hell difficulty with a lightning character you have to equip an Act 2 Nightmare Defensive merc with an Infinity polearm, and having him wear a Duriel's Shell doesn't hurt his survivability. It's tough to build the Infinity polearm without playing P2W though because it takes 2 Ber, 1 Mal, and an Ist rune to make the Infinity runeword.

Same for the Enigma chest that so many players can't seem to play without. Finding high runes is such a bother, it's so much easier to buy them.

Which begs the question... Why doesn't Blizz want trading in D3? LOL
The act of choosing a skill or group of skills in D3 is really easy, but actually using them to their full potential requires knowledge, practice, and ability.

I'll use one DH skill as an example, Marked for Death - Mortal Enemy. The skill is pretty straightforward, you mark an enemy, they take more damage, and you gain more hatred; however, that is just the surface. Beneath are intricate layers of mechanics and relationships to other mechanics that is simply gratifying.

Mortal Enemy, like many skills, is subject to proc coefficients. MS - Arsenal had a 0.18 coefficient. That means that every MS cast generates 0.72 hatred for each arrow and another 0.72 hatred if a rocket hits the marked target (4 x 0.18 = 0.72). If both hit, 1.44 hatred is generated. At 3.00 APS, that's 4.32 hatred per second.

While 4.32 hatred per second is nice, Mortal Enemy can be made much stronger by using it with DML because when the mobs drop below 60% life, the double hit power kicks in and all four hits proc ME! So 4.32 becomes 8.64 hatred per second! But that isn't all. Vengeance side guns and rockets also proc ME! The coefficient escapes me now, suffice it to say its very low, but it adds up.

8.64 hatred per second is really nice, but even so there is one final thing a player can do to increase it even further. They can cube Hexing Pants which increases the 8.64 hatred per second by 25% yielding 10.8 hatred per second (factoring in Vengeance procs puts it over 11).

A key point to consider is that the 10+ hatred per second is conditional upon three things: a rocket hit, mob life <60%, and the player never stopping. Remembering to mark mobs, marking mobs in front that are likely to be hit with rockets and are close to 60% life, and placing in the Mark in such in such a way as to not unduly interrupt one's stepping technique or attacks per second are all crucially important to effectively use Mortal Enemy and take time to master. When done correctly, the difference is night and day in terms of how many multishots one can cast.

This is just one skill and a couple items. There are many other skills and mechanics in D3 with subtleties that can found and used in gameplay to achieve greater performance.

People who complain about D3's shallowness only do so because they are either unwilling or incapable of seeing beneath the surface.
05/16/2018 07:58 PMPosted by Shurgosa
RPGS of basically any flavour can be branded as needless complexity.
That's a sorry excuse to take an RPG franchise and dumb it down for kids.

if you want a shallow simple game, dont bother with RPGs at all.
otherwise look what happens; D3 is boiled down to a childs action game so that its new simple little fanbase is not turned away from all the interwoven character and item growth systems.

D3 was supposed to be a game where it was interesting and exciting to create and discover characters and items, and tweak and tailor them to be fun to play.
It is not.
And it's this idiotic appeal to simplicity and childlike fear and hate of complexity that the mainstream fans have brought over by the truckload that is to blame.


Well said; +1

The big problem with oversimplified games is that they get boring very, very fast. There need to be different and more in depth ways to set up chars else the longterm satisfaction will suffer; that combined with raining legendarys, way too fast leveling and the endgame monotony starting once being lvl 70 makes D3 the most repititive and boring yawner in the entire arpg genre.

Even in WoW they realized that oversimplifieing everything does more damage than good to the game thats why they bring back WoW classic so that players can enjoy serious challenge and thrill again. Wish diablo devs would come to that conclusion aswell.
05/16/2018 06:59 PMPosted by steve
You don't invest attribute points into casting spells... you invest skill points.... you don't have to look up any armor


Of course you do. If I want to wear certain armour sets like the sets that give you an aura in D2, I need to know what the minimums are and what skills they use so that I don't waste any along the way

05/16/2018 06:10 PMPosted by steve
There are no ranged classes in D3. Every single character needs to be able to stand in the middle of a pack of monsters to progress to any kind of meaningful difficulty


As far as I'm concerned the Demon Hunter and sorcerer are ranged classes and I have a friend that has a wave of light monk build that can do GR100 and is doing it at range and not up close

The every single class has to stand in the middle of a mob to fight says more about your mind set and play style than whether they are ranged or not
05/16/2018 10:19 PMPosted by RedCell
This is just one skill and a couple items. There are many other skills and mechanics in D3 with subtleties that can found and used in gameplay to achieve greater performance.
You must have been friends with Nyan....

I mean that in a good way...
...

This is just one skill and a couple items. There are many other skills and mechanics in D3 with subtleties that can found and used in gameplay to achieve greater performance.

People who complain about D3's shallowness only do so because they are either unwilling or incapable of seeing beneath the surface.


I think you're equating the need to micromanage the conditional nature of those bonuses with them being more intricate and complex than they actually are when in reality it's basically just stacking additional resource generation.

D3's design of performance based micromanagement is predicated on skills being homogenized around a universal source, i.e. weapon damage. This fact combined with a lack of variety in the defensive layers for characters/mobs and that elemental types have no inherent differences results in everything boiling down to the most efficient output of raw weapon damage necessary for clearing.

It's a very clear math game with not a lot of options once that becomes the priority and there really aren't other priorities to have because of the nature of the GR end-game.
05/16/2018 06:22 PMPosted by DTMAce
Because a larger population want a game that's also easier to play.

The depth of D2 does not appeal to every gamer. Many prefer to keep the game simpler.

In its way, D3 has a much better battle system in place as compensation. The depth may not be there, but the interaction is much more fluid.

Take POE for example. They pretty much went even further with the depth than D2 did. But their game play is a mess (in my opinion) compared to even D2, let alone D3. I couldn't stand playing that game. Sure, the depth was nice, having lots of options to tweak on your character, but ultimately, it felt to me to be too hands on, and not as fun to just pick up nearly anything and go at it.

Different strokes for different folks.

I have attempted to play D2 a few times since D3 came out. I can't even stand to play it more than 15 minutes before I'm bored and wondering why I'm torturing myself and end up back to D3. Though these days I have been playing more OW... lol

Game on.


See this? This is the problem with you casual gamers. It's not so much that we hate you for being a casual gamer, it's the fact that you're trying to make everything fit in for you and only you, and there's so many of you out there that quality company titles like Blizzard will butcher quality titles loved by so many in order to cater to your needs and poor attention span in order to raise their profit to extreme levels.

You want to dedicate 30 minutes a week for some cheap entertainment? Go play Stardew Valley, Animal Crossing or Farmville.

Diablo was never meant to be a casual game. This is a big reason why so many people are pissed off and how Diablo 3 has been getting so much criticism and disappointment since launch 6 years ago. I've already said this in another post, but Diablo 3 is not a game, it's a hollow product. A perfect example of quantity over quality.

If a small company like GGG can make a complicated game full of depth like Path of Exile and get by really well, why can't Blizzard?

and not as fun to just pick up nearly anything and go at it.


Since Magics and Rares are useless in the game. You mean you pick up Sets and Legendaries that will be forgotten souls 99.99% of the time, right?

Where as in D2 or PoE, the rares have potential to roll better than any unique in the game which you can trade for other high end gear? Oh wait, sorry for bringing up "trading". Forgot that the word "trading" was forbidden here, don't arrest me.

Game on.


I have to admit though, Blizzard did something right. It takes tremendous amount of talent to take a title like Diablo and make it the center of a joke. It's infamy will be remembered for years to come.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go eat breakfast. MEAT GOOD, VEGETABLES BAD!
05/17/2018 03:03 AMPosted by Whirlwind
See this? This is the problem with you casual gamers.


Problem is, somewhere along the line Blizzard came out and said that that was the type of game they made, you are supposed to play WoW them come and play D3 for a bit then go back to playing WoW

05/17/2018 03:03 AMPosted by Whirlwind
It's not so much that we hate you for being a casual gamer, it's the fact that you're trying to make everything fit in for you and only you,


Funny I see it that the main gamers wanted to make it all about GR and the LB and stuff the actual campaign. The game isn't about Diablo any more it's about how high a GR can I do, which for all intentional purposes has nothing to do with Diablo.
Even if you suggest adding higher difficulty levels so you don't just walk through the game 1 shotting everything at the current highest level, the players come on and complain because then it will take them too long to collect GR stones to run GRs continuously
D2's attribute system is one of its worst parts. Let's say I'm a Sorceress and I want to cast a bunch of spells. Instead of investing points in casting spells, I'm supposed to look up what end game armor I want and make sure I have enough strength to wear it. Rerolls did mitigate it some when they were added.


It's not just D2 where this frustrated me... Torchlight (as much as I love the game) has the same frustration and I'm sure other ARPGs do as well. Considering I ended up spending more time looking up on how to gear my characters than playing D2, I was one of those who took up the strategy on not spending stat points until necessary or wasting skill points until I had a enough points to test out dumping at least 10 points on a skill. Torchlight was pretty much the same thing but at least I could learn spells and use them until I had figured out the build I wanted.

From this point of view, D3 is simply more enjoyable to gear and spec up a build. What some players call lasting power and depth in those older ARPGs is also a barrier to continuing for other players like me.
05/16/2018 10:40 PMPosted by Steve
05/16/2018 06:59 PMPosted by steve
You don't invest attribute points into casting spells... you invest skill points.... you don't have to look up any armor


Of course you do. If I want to wear certain armour sets like the sets that give you an aura in D2, I need to know what the minimums are and what skills they use so that I don't waste any along the way

05/16/2018 06:10 PMPosted by steve
There are no ranged classes in D3. Every single character needs to be able to stand in the middle of a pack of monsters to progress to any kind of meaningful difficulty


As far as I'm concerned the Demon Hunter and sorcerer are ranged classes and I have a friend that has a wave of light monk build that can do GR100 and is doing it at range and not up close

The every single class has to stand in the middle of a mob to fight says more about your mind set and play style than whether they are ranged or not


IT'S STEVE VS STEVE!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

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