CR 53 too hard?

General Discussion
06/27/2018 10:04 AMPosted by SevenShadow
06/27/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Avendalia
Skill in these challenges lies in knowing how to play, and knowing how to play with the abilities and items involved. Clearly that part leaves much to be desired for some.


Agreed.

Noobs should stop crying and learn to play.


Lol. If anything, CRs teach you how NOT to play because the builds don’t work together coherently.

Remember that Wizard Tal Rasha one with hydra a while back? That had 2 pairs of Nilfur’s Boast, one of them pre 2.6? And it was wearing Hexing Pants while using a channeled spell as a damage source?

Nobody who knows how to play actually does those things.
Thanks for the tutorial Blashyrkh. I've failed this about 8 times, but missed by only 2-3 sec twice :( I am pretty frustrated. Give me a tip, despite best efforts and using teleport judiciously I seems to get trapped by mobs which wastes time, how do you avoid this? Seems to me that keeping forward progress here is critical, considering the narrow margin for success some of us noobs have to deal with.
06/27/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Avendalia
06/27/2018 06:54 AMPosted by Orrion
Don’t really care how easy the Rift itself is.

The point is that this week’s CR is another showcase for how horrible CRs in general are.

We’ve got yet another half-assed build with a bunch of mistakes and/or incompleteness thrown into a Rift that has a layout and density contrary to the build.

So, yet again, the “challenge” lies in overcoming player error and trying to make the best of things.

Can anyone tell me another game that actually goes out of its way to showcase the stupidity/ignorance of its own players?


Is it really overcoming player error, rather then our errors? I mean the original player did beat it in the target time after all, whereas you are here complaining about it.

06/27/2018 06:54 AMPosted by Orrion

Can anyone tell me another game that actually goes out of its way to showcase the stupidity/ignorance of its own players?

Haha, kind of ironic.

Skill in these challenges lies in knowing how to play, and knowing how to play with the abilities and items involved. Clearly that part leaves much to be desired for some.


I think you’re being intentionally stupid or obtuse here to misunderstand the point.

I completed this one. It wasn’t hard. So you can drop the insinuation that I wasn’t able to do it. Completing it doesn’t change the fact that it wasn’t a good or satisfying experience.

—-

Look, CRs, as they are, are useless and broken. Why should I care about beating some random guy’s time using his probably-incomplete-or-incoherent-build?

CRs should have been built around using completed non-set (except maybe LoN) builds and seeing how far we could go. Builds that most players don’t know about or wouldn’t play regularly because of how sets, absurd modifiers, and an emphasis on efficiency force them into a handful of builds.

There’s a ton of builds out there that are complete and fun to play, but simply can’t reach the high levels. However, that wouldn’t matter if such builds were featured in CRs since there aren’t any drops or rewards outside of the cache. You could just tune the cache to be rewarded at a reasonable difficulty for that build, and then let players loose to see how high they could push it.

Suddenly the challenge isn’t in overcoming mistakes and oversights, or fighting against the incompleteness of a build, but rather around how well you can learn and execute the chosen build.

That’s a hell of a lot more of a barometer of “knowing how to play with the abilities and items involved,” don’t you think?
06/27/2018 11:09 AMPosted by Nick
Thanks for the tutorial Blashyrkh. I've failed this about 8 times, but missed by only 2-3 sec twice :( I am pretty frustrated. Give me a tip, despite best efforts and using teleport judiciously I seems to get trapped by mobs which wastes time, how do you avoid this? Seems to me that keeping forward progress here is critical, considering the narrow margin for success some of us noobs have to deal with.


If you get stuck by a bunch of mobs, pop a Slow Time and obliterate them with an EB or AO, then continue moving while Teleport is still in CD.

Trash mobs may not do much but if you have more than 5 within the vicinity, just obliterate them. My second attempt was 3 seconds ahead of the original time, but with enough practice I should be a little faster.
Good point, Orrion.
CRs are epic fail.
Random combination of highest stupidity and incomprehension of even basic play.
And someone would like us to learn to play from them, loooool.
I am doing most of them, but really not sure why.
Such a waste of time, except maybe at the very beginning of Seasons.
As I said, CR 53 on EU server... no teleport, crawling like a blind man without legs.
And all you care in CR is, of course, speed.
Not to mention, no gems, no anything...
This one at least has Teleport.
I agree completely with your view on CRs Orrion. Their implementation is terrible and could have been so much better. People will always confuse disappointment in a feature and dismiss it as whining because "I did it first try" or "It's not hard" - neither of which is the point at all.
06/27/2018 09:40 AMPosted by Alexismad
06/27/2018 05:56 AMPosted by Rogue77777
Take a look at YouTube and search for Diablo 3 Challenge Rift.
There's a few streams that put out videos every week, on how to do the latest challenge rift.


If you need to search youTube and do a ton of research to get the Crift done, then it would be better to just run a 15 minute bounty run.

The concept of challenge rifts had so much potential, it is sad they only put 30 minutes of effort into the implementation.


They definately should have a more fitting reward attached to them.
06/27/2018 10:53 AMPosted by Orrion
06/27/2018 10:04 AMPosted by SevenShadow
...

Agreed.

Noobs should stop crying and learn to play.


Lol. If anything, CRs teach you how NOT to play because the builds don’t work together coherently.

Remember that Wizard Tal Rasha one with hydra a while back? That had 2 pairs of Nilfur’s Boast, one of them pre 2.6? And it was wearing Hexing Pants while using a channeled spell as a damage source?

Nobody who knows how to play actually does those things.


It should be no problem to beat the timer of someone that doesnt know how to play, right? I dont think CR was ever about learning optimal builds, was it?

06/27/2018 11:19 AMPosted by Orrion


I think you’re being intentionally stupid or obtuse here to misunderstand the point.

That's my line here. I understood your point perfectly well, as evident in the arguments I used.

06/27/2018 11:19 AMPosted by Orrion

I completed this one. It wasn’t hard. So you can drop the insinuation that I wasn’t able to do it. Completing it doesn’t change the fact that it wasn’t a good or satisfying experience.


Challenge Rifts are there for the challenge of beating the timer on another players terms. Not your own.

That's one subtle argument you seemed to have missed in my post.

06/27/2018 11:19 AMPosted by Orrion

Look, CRs, as they are, are useless and broken. Why should I care about beating some random guy’s time using his probably-incomplete-or-incoherent-build?


Because there's the actual leaderboards for beating the well known and no-random guys using fully optimised builds? Unless your suggesting you'd like CR of the top GR clears? I'd be fine with that too, but realise what your asking for with the level of difficulty involved in clearing those, nevermind beating the timer.

I don't know what you [i]are[/b] asking for, since you haven't actually made any suggestions on what you want CR to be like.

06/27/2018 11:19 AMPosted by Orrion

CRs should have been built around using completed non-set (except maybe LoN) builds and seeing how far we could go. Builds that most players don’t know about or wouldn’t play regularly because of how sets, absurd modifiers, and an emphasis on efficiency force them into a handful of builds.

So, finally a suggestion instead of whine. That's better. I'd be cool with that. Personally I suspect the Diablo 3 team doesnt actually do much anymore and that would be too much for them. Hence we get ''random'' rifts instead. But eh, its indeed a good suggestion.

06/27/2018 11:19 AMPosted by Orrion

There’s a ton of builds out there that are complete and fun to play, but simply can’t reach the high levels. However, that wouldn’t matter if such builds were featured in CRs since there aren’t any drops or rewards outside of the cache. You could just tune the cache to be rewarded at a reasonable difficulty for that build, and then let players loose to see how high they could push it.

Suddenly the challenge isn’t in overcoming mistakes and oversights, or fighting against the incompleteness of a build, but rather around how well you can learn and execute the chosen build.

That’s a hell of a lot more of a barometer of “knowing how to play with the abilities and items involved,” don’t you think?


No, actually. Its a very good suggestion, and I agree that more tuned CR's would be a good thing. However for reasons obvious to you too, learning how to play a well synced set/build is much easier then learning how to handle a missmatched one.

Good builds just make things much easier. It's very rare for a good build to make things harder.

Anyway, its a good suggestion and I agree with you on that. Personally I only really care about the challenge it presents and the rewards it offers tho. This is one part of the game where I dont actually mind ''RNG'' in what CR we get being a thing.
It should be no problem to beat the timer of someone that doesnt know how to play, right? I dont think CR was ever about learning optimal builds, was it?


The builds don't have to be optimal meta builds, but I would like to see more builds that are better planned. I've tried to support CR for the last bit despite the "WIP" characters being used as I'd love to see more new things added and the challenge to me is about doing better than the original runner, as well as trying new builds for classes I don't normally play. But I was also hoping they'd improve the algorithm to be able to find more coherent builds that are fun to play. Only having meta builds list for CR isn't the answer, but neither are these half baked builds.

The concept is good. The execution leaves much to be desired.
06/27/2018 11:09 AMPosted by Nick
Thanks for the tutorial Blashyrkh. I've failed this about 8 times, but missed by only 2-3 sec twice :( I am pretty frustrated. Give me a tip, despite best efforts and using teleport judiciously I seems to get trapped by mobs which wastes time, how do you avoid this? Seems to me that keeping forward progress here is critical, considering the narrow margin for success some of us noobs have to deal with.

It wasn't meant as a tutorial, but a general overview on how I approach CRs. It's worked just fine for me thus far. Just run past irrelevant packs, and focus on elites/champs and large size mobs that are the ones worth killing for progression. Avoid stuff like little spider/scorpion types or other smaller mobs unless they just happen to be near big ones. There's not much more to it than that. Some CRs may require you to take a min to read and understand the way a set works, but isn't generally the case for me.
06/27/2018 11:50 AMPosted by Avendalia

Anyway, its a good suggestion and I agree with you on that. Personally I only really care about the challenge it presents and the rewards it offers tho. This is one part of the game where I dont actually mind ''RNG'' in what CR we get being a thing.


I care about the challenge. That's why I hate the current implementation. The current challenge is based entirely around user/programmer error. If the CR of the week is anything close to a coherent build using a set or even just a handful of complementary legendary items the CR is generally very, very easy. As an example - first CR for us was an Impale DH. I'd never played Impale at all, and hadn't played a DH at all in over a year at the time. I beat the timer the first time through by like a minute. Was that challenging? No.

If, on the other hand, the CR is a mishmash of gear that work against each other and uses seemingly random skills/gems/whatever, then the CR is generally frustrating and sometimesa challenge. For instance, that Tal Rasha build a few months ago that I railed against (made a thread about it) was frustrating as all hell. But it still wasn't challenging - I beat it the 3rd try.

So my problem on the whole is that CRs aren't really challenging. They're either easy, or pretty easy with a frustration factor of the kind that came from games on the NES in the 1980s. That's Nintendo Hard frustration, where the challenge comes not from the actual game but in how handicapped the player is through errors or bad mechanics. It's the laziest kind of challenge, and that's why CRs are just a big pile of disappointment.
06/27/2018 10:53 AMPosted by Orrion
Nobody who knows how to play actually does those things.


And yet, they managed to complete the original rift while all these so-called know-how-to-play noobs complain about not being able to beat it. Lol that's funny.

CR is meant for you to play with terrible builds (mostly), and despite it being a crappy feature, it has been working as intended. I'd still prefer doing it over bounties any day, though.
So, finally a suggestion instead of whine. That's better. I'd be cool with that. Personally I suspect the Diablo 3 team doesnt actually do much anymore and that would be too much for them. Hence we get ''random'' rifts instead. But eh, its indeed a good suggestion.


I know this was posed at Orrion, but here is what I would do:

Acquisition: Last week of season, allow players to send in some videos of
completed builds they have come up with. First week of season end, Blizz
employee puts down the spreadsheets for a week and selects 3-4 builds per
class from the videos sent in. Last week of season end, a link on the launcher
allows players to go in and vote on the builds they like.

Now for the following 12 weeks of the season, they have 7 player selected
builds to run on crift which can be mixed in with a couple of meta builds taken
off the leaderboards, and a couple of random trash builds that the are
currently being chosen.

This would give Blizz some sorely needed interaction with player base and give
the players some sort of control of the content they are playing.

Map/mob selection: static mix chosen at random (but PLEASE no 5 sewer maps
with 5 westmarch maps).

Game play: Instead of just beat one time on a set GR level, the player can choose
the GR level. The leaderboard will reflect who pushed the build the highest in
the fastest time.

This would give the competitive player a chance to push the limits of the build
against other competitive players, while allowing novice players to test the
build without a fail/no fail reward system.

Rewards: Completing the current build at gr10 would give the current rewards
bag. For every 10 grs the build is pushed to, the player gets an additional bag.
Top 1000 players gets a bag double the current reward bag. Top 100 gets a
bag 3 times the current reward. Top 10 gets slightly increased reward over the
top 100 rewards.

Novice player/player who just wants the bounty mats gets their small part of
the reward loop for trying it out. Competitive players gets some slightly
increased rewards for their time invested.
06/27/2018 07:32 PMPosted by Alexismad
First week of season end, Blizz
employee puts down the spreadsheets for a week and selects 3-4 builds per
class from the videos sent in.


But that would involve making them do their jobs. So, no, it's not going to work.
Lol was waiting for a smarmy !@#$s like Avendalia, wasn't disappointed.
06/27/2018 06:43 PMPosted by SevenShadow
06/27/2018 10:53 AMPosted by Orrion
Nobody who knows how to play actually does those things.


And yet, they managed to complete the original rift while all these so-called know-how-to-play noobs complain about not being able to beat it. Lol that's funny.

CR is meant for you to play with terrible builds (mostly), and despite it being a crappy feature, it has been working as intended. I'd still prefer doing it over bounties any day, though.


Well to be fair, you also dont know if they used bots or map hacks. Some CR's do seem impossible to complete in time without prior map knowledge and knowledge of elite locations + super ''click speed'' for spamming abilities.

Or incredible RNG.
CR's definately show how RNG and down to luck rifting can be as well.

06/28/2018 02:29 AMPosted by Sarnen
Lol was waiting for a smarmy !@#$s like Avendalia, wasn't disappointed.


Placing people in boxes like that and projecting your expectations upon them? I often wonder what its like being that much of a jerk.
06/27/2018 06:22 PMPosted by Orrion
06/27/2018 11:50 AMPosted by Avendalia

Anyway, its a good suggestion and I agree with you on that. Personally I only really care about the challenge it presents and the rewards it offers tho. This is one part of the game where I dont actually mind ''RNG'' in what CR we get being a thing.


I care about the challenge. That's why I hate the current implementation. The current challenge is based entirely around user/programmer error. If the CR of the week is anything close to a coherent build using a set or even just a handful of complementary legendary items the CR is generally very, very easy. As an example - first CR for us was an Impale DH. I'd never played Impale at all, and hadn't played a DH at all in over a year at the time. I beat the timer the first time through by like a minute. Was that challenging? No.

If, on the other hand, the CR is a mishmash of gear that work against each other and uses seemingly random skills/gems/whatever, then the CR is generally frustrating and sometimesa challenge. For instance, that Tal Rasha build a few months ago that I railed against (made a thread about it) was frustrating as all hell. But it still wasn't challenging - I beat it the 3rd try.

So my problem on the whole is that CRs aren't really challenging. They're either easy, or pretty easy with a frustration factor of the kind that came from games on the NES in the 1980s. That's Nintendo Hard frustration, where the challenge comes not from the actual game but in how handicapped the player is through errors or bad mechanics. It's the laziest kind of challenge, and that's why CRs are just a big pile of disappointment.


In my view it doesnt just show how badly CR is implemented, it shows the problems with rifts themselves, which imo is the bigger issue. Either you dominate them, or you have a hard time.

Current CR (only played EU version) is as you say, a mishmash of gear that work against each other and is frustrating to play. But why is it frustrating to play?

-Its a high density aoe build and the rift maps are corridormaps where you cant easily walk and aoe stuff.
-While the build still easily kills elites at this GR level, the elites are hard to find (due to corridor+many rooms level)
-Mobs screw with the build (knockback, spider web slows)
-Orbs in CR are light blue colored. The same color as the runed slow time the player is using. It's 2 dark maps with corridors and walls that can easily block sight of them. (why are there still orbs instead of progress added upon kill?)

There's 2/3 parts about the build that are frustrating in itself:
-No teleport. Makes it feel much slower and less enjoyable for most.
-Blastwave build meaning you need learn how to pre-empt it or mobs die a lot slower. + Slow time being required for damage, meaning you need to have it up on all mobs.

In itself the build wouldnt of been too bad, imo. It taught me how to blastwave properly which is a build ive never used before. And it taught me if I ever want to play a build like that, there's a ton of improvements that build needs:

-no click ability on LMB
-Teleport OR illusionary(or whatstheirname) boots.
-+movement speed affixes/passives

Still, I concede your point. With those improvements on the build, and the same level of (presumed) skill from the original player, it would of been a more enjoyable challenge. If still a crappy one cuz the rifts sucked.

Corridor with a lot of rooms maps just dont work well in GR's imo. As opposed to cave/sewer etc maps, where the corridors are just corridors instead of having a million rooms attached to them.
Clash Royale?
hehe i tried 20 times and got mad searched youtube tutorial and finished with 1 second left, hell of a ride, but fun indeed :)

the only reason i kept failing was actually not seeing the speed shrine thing, after i knew where it was it went like butter.
06/27/2018 06:43 PMPosted by SevenShadow
06/27/2018 10:53 AMPosted by Orrion
Nobody who knows how to play actually does those things.


And yet, they managed to complete the original rift while all these so-called know-how-to-play noobs complain about not being able to beat it. Lol that's funny.

CR is meant for you to play with terrible builds (mostly), and despite it being a crappy feature, it has been working as intended. I'd still prefer doing it over bounties any day, though.


Are you that gullible?

Take that Tal Rasha build a few months back. In order to get anywhere close to the target time, you had to take the path with the pylon and hit every elite pack along that path, one of which required going away from where the exit would be. Then in the dungeon you had to hit a few very specific elite packs hidden away in nooks you couldn’t see from the main path. Then you had to take the correct turn to the next level rather than the dead end.

The odds of that specific route being taken the first time through.. well, that takes more luck and playing efficiency than I’m willing to believe in, especially from a player whose build had very fundamental problems.

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