Let's discuss trading for the next Diablo game.

General Discussion
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MMOs have more to trade than just gear, and for the most part you CAN’T buy the best gear anyway - because it’s locked in the raids and high end PvP.

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And that’s exactly the kind of thing it would be possible to accomplish with systems other than trading. What if there WAS another system where you could eventually get those exact pieces of gear? Why would you then need trading?

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The economy would still become saturated in relatively short order, but I don’t really care about saturation as a problem anyway.


I don't need game systems to try to mimic the benefits of trading. To me that's boring. It's taking away yet another 'massively multiplayer' aspect of the game and making it more like a single player game. I don't enjoy single player games and I don't play them.


Diablo isn’t an MMORPG. It’s an ARPG.

And how in the heck can you possibly think a game that promotes grouping synergies and has trading ONLY when grouped is making it “more like a single player game.”

What if they made that system, and then had benefits for doing quests and objectives while grouped with other players? Would you still think it was more like a single player game?

Trading as it was in D2 is the illusion of multiplayer, anyway.

The solution is to have two server types. A 'self found' server option and a 'player trading' server option. Then both groups can play the way they prefer it.


That depends on how they set it up.

Again, I LIKE D3’s window of trading. So I don’t necessarily want to play completely self found.

I just don’t want to be forced into a system where I have to keep track of and research literally everything that drops because it might be useful for someone else, and waste time trying to value and items and get value for items. I want to be playing the game.

If blizzard go the route of no trading, then I will go the route of not buying the game. As will many others probably. We'll see more in the future once they've announced the game and given details. There's going to be a lot of anger in the gaming community if they kill the trading aspect.


Really won’t feel sorry if they kill the ability to become artificially rich in a video game.
Here's the biggest problem:

Pay to Win. You pay an item seller, they grind to the item. You get what you want, hackers and cheaters get real money. Go play D2 online sometime. Look at all the sellers and spammers. This is because of unrestricted spam, pure and simple.
If they could set up a decent barter system I'd be down. The biggest problem with trading, is what made trading fun in D2, just isn't feasible anymore. It use to be you could go into a game and just throw stuff into your trade window and you'd barter with people. I want trading, but I want it for the social aspect more than getting the item I want.

But in most newer games where they try to add this, the process eventually becomes tedious and automated. And you don't end up socializing at all. It's just another thing you gotta do.
08/10/2018 04:18 PMPosted by Sylvax
Here's the biggest problem:

Pay to Win. You pay an item seller, they grind to the item. You get what you want, hackers and cheaters get real money. Go play D2 online sometime. Look at all the sellers and spammers. This is because of unrestricted spam, pure and simple.


Solution: An effective anti spam system. Other games can do it, why can't Diablo?
08/11/2018 03:55 AMPosted by Sinister
08/10/2018 04:18 PMPosted by Sylvax
Here's the biggest problem:

Pay to Win. You pay an item seller, they grind to the item. You get what you want, hackers and cheaters get real money. Go play D2 online sometime. Look at all the sellers and spammers. This is because of unrestricted spam, pure and simple.


Solution: An effective anti spam system. Other games can do it, why can't Diablo?


Wouldn’t it feel more like a single player game if you were limited to typing a few messages a minute?
08/10/2018 02:13 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Trading at a conceptual level is a very interesting idea, if kept within the boundaries of the game itself (meaning ingame currency only).


That may be impossible to fully accomplish but the consequences of 'market permeability' will be tied to the type of gameplay and in some cases it could end up being acceptable.

It heavily depends on the 'player skill level' of the game. If gear is everything then we have the recipe for disaster. But some MMOs are quite skill demanding and it's not rare to see someone decked in full bis p2w stuff but still worthless as a player (can't perform a rotation and can't evade crap and can't deal with instance mechanics). I've played some games like that, players sold cosmetics for in game money in order to p2w their way to top gear but nobody cared because that's only halfway on the road to be a respectable player.

We don't know about the skill:gear ratio we're gonna be dealing with. I don't fully discard combat in Diablo evolving beyond simple point and click.

Just gating high end gear behind an activity and binding it doesn't address the issue of bad players buying carries.

IMO the only way to fix all this mess w.o completely neutering the game is to make the game really intense mechanically (aiming, positioning and block/dodge manually, going the DS route... yes, you guessed right: Diablo in full 3d) or use a restrictive trading scheme that doesn't suck (the only option here is going 'tiered item-for-item' bartering).
08/11/2018 10:36 AMPosted by TobiasPeste
08/10/2018 02:13 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Trading at a conceptual level is a very interesting idea, if kept within the boundaries of the game itself (meaning ingame currency only).


That may be impossible to fully accomplish but the consequences of 'market permeability' will be tied to the type of gameplay and in some cases it could end up being acceptable.

It heavily depends on the 'player skill level' of the game. If gear is everything then we have the recipe for disaster. But some MMOs are quite skill demanding and it's not rare to see someone decked in full bis p2w stuff but still worthless as a player (can't perform a rotation and can't evade crap and can't deal with instance mechanics). I've played some games like that, players sold cosmetics for in game money in order to p2w their way to top gear but nobody cared because that's only halfway on the road to be a respectable player.


The good MMOs don't have p2w - at least not for the best things.

Just gating high end gear behind an activity and binding it doesn't address the issue of bad players buying carries.


Nobody really cares about that in WoW. I mean, do you really want to advertise that you had to pay 19 other people to get your gear for you? You still don't have the achievements, anyway.

IMO the only way to fix all this mess w.o completely neutering the game is to make the game really intense mechanically (aiming, positioning and block/dodge manually, going the DS route... yes, you guessed right: Diablo in full 3d) or use a restrictive trading scheme that doesn't suck (the only option here is going 'tiered item-for-item' bartering).


If I wanted that I'd be playing DS. I don't see how intense mechanics counters any of that, either.
08/10/2018 11:36 AMPosted by TobiasPeste
08/10/2018 06:41 AMPosted by GameFiles
Tell me what you think!


The auction houses were terrible. Don't want it again.
Getting free money to play a Diablo game=Rubbish! Haha you clearly weren't playing the game right.
08/11/2018 02:46 PMPosted by ImmortalKing
08/10/2018 11:36 AMPosted by TobiasPeste
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The auction houses were terrible. Don't want it again.
Getting free money to play a Diablo game=Rubbish! Haha you clearly weren't playing the game right.


If by "playing the game right" you mean "staring at the AH screen to flip items," then no, I wasn't playing right.
08/11/2018 02:46 PMPosted by ImmortalKing
Getting free money to play a Diablo game=Rubbish! Haha you clearly weren't playing the game right.


Yeah, I was a fool. Pretending to have fun in bot-land and whatnot. I must have read the wrong sign.

08/11/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Orrion
The good MMOs don't have p2w - at least not for the best things.


That's not true. Unless you narrow your definition of 'p2w' and 'good'. I've played some games where players just bought stuff/carries but it didn't matter because those were still attainable legitimately and you still needed to know how to use it to make a difference.

08/11/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Orrion
If I wanted that I'd be playing DS. I don't see how intense mechanics counters any of that, either.


You can't buy skills. If it's required to succeed then p2w will never take you that far. Really hard to understand? Sounds like you never played a game in which skill meant something but still had an (exploitable) economy.
I'd prefer Diablo to stay classic style but I'm not closed to other things.
08/11/2018 04:06 AMPosted by Orrion
08/11/2018 03:55 AMPosted by Sinister
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Solution: An effective anti spam system. Other games can do it, why can't Diablo?


Wouldn’t it feel more like a single player game if you were limited to typing a few messages a minute?

I don't know how this anti-spam system works that Sinister is talking about, but if it is indeed limiting the amount of messages you can make in the chat, maybe that could only apply to trade chat?

Oh, and it also could censor certain buzzwords like websites etc automatically.

I still think in-clan-only trading (you can only trade with players in your clan who are members of the clan for at least x weeks), a trade window (you can trade an item that dropped for you for x hours with players that were in the game with you while it dropped - no matter what clan they are in) and the idea that certain items can only be traded two or three times, while other items can not be traded at all, is a very good solution to not saturate the market and to make it significantly harder for third party websites to sell their shady services.
08/11/2018 04:41 PMPosted by clueso
08/11/2018 04:06 AMPosted by Orrion
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Wouldn’t it feel more like a single player game if you were limited to typing a few messages a minute?

I don't know how this anti-spam system works that Sinister is talking about, but if it is indeed limiting the amount of messages you can make in the chat, maybe that could only apply to trade chat?

Oh, and it also could censor certain buzzwords like websites etc automatically.

I still think in-clan-only trading (you can only trade with players in your clan who are members of the clan for at least x weeks), a trade window (you can trade an item that dropped for you for x hours with players that were in the game with you while it dropped - no matter what clan they are in) and the idea that certain items can only be traded two or three times, while other items can not be traded at all, is a very good solution to not saturate the market and to make it significantly harder for third party websites to sell their shady services.


Take a look at any MMO these days. They have various ways to get past the censor. w.w.w. dot we sell gold com for instance. In order to fully cut down and censor, there would have to be no chat.

Disclaimer: To my knowledge, the fake website above is not a real website.
Trading definitely needs to come back. It's one of the best end-game aspects of D2.

The whole point of getting powerful and high leveled in D2 was so you could grind for more GG loot more efficiently and comfortably. For me that was THE reason to level up and grind for loot, so I could not only become powerful myself but to trade GG loot and become in-game rich.

The Real Money Auction House as well as the Gold Auction House in D3 were a big problem and mistake. First, the real money auction house was a massive mistake, as it involved real money, and people could spend real money to just get their gear which is pathetic. The Gold Auction House was also bad as people would farm gold or flip items on the AH all day to get a lot of in-game gold so they could pay for the inflated prices of all the items that were ridiculously expensive due to other item-flippers. Both forms were very bad, and its good both Auction Houses are gone.

The next issue with both auction houses was that it made "trading" ridiculously easy, and because of that everyone would just get their gear upgrades on the AH. it was too easy to get gear from the AH.

Trading in D2 was like this:


You play the game and you find items, and you trade those items for other items. It was a barter style trading and some items that were worth a lot to one player were potentially less desirable by another player. In D2 you would play a paladin and find a lot of items but only very few would be Uber-Items. Maybe one of those Uber Items would be a sorceress orb, and maybe you could trade that sorceress orb for a Uber Item for the Paladin. This is awesome, and D4 needs to bring this back.

If 50% or more of your character power comes from the Skill Tree, character level, and perks from countless bonus quests, then Uber Rare and Uber Powerful items are awesome. You easily get away playing the endgame difficulty with "regular common gear" but hunting for those UBER-GG pieces is what Diablo is all about, and they MUST be very rare to ensure the infamous "Long-Term-Loothunt" and those unforgettable "OMG!!! Moments" when you find items that most other players haven't found yet. This item rarity can only exist when the impact of items is balanced with your own character level and skill tree impact. As long as items are only responsible for 50% or LESS of your character, ultra-rare items can and must exist and are awesome this way. Ultra rare items in D2 worked exceptionally well because your character could kill stuff in the final difficulty while being entirely NAKED. In D2 your character level and Skill Tree choices had MORE impact than the gear you were wearing. This is something D3 failed in miserably.

Item for Item trading is the fundamental KEY to D4's long term replayability and ultimate success in the eyes of Diablo Enthusiasts.
08/11/2018 10:36 AMPosted by TobiasPeste
That may be impossible to fully accomplish but the consequences of 'market permeability' will be tied to the type of gameplay and in some cases it could end up being acceptable.

That's why you don't let high end gear to be traded. Works perfectly fine in WoW.

08/11/2018 10:36 AMPosted by TobiasPeste
It heavily depends on the 'player skill level' of the game. If gear is everything then we have the recipe for disaster. But some MMOs are quite skill demanding and it's not rare to see someone decked in full bis p2w stuff but still worthless as a player (can't perform a rotation and can't evade crap and can't deal with instance mechanics). I've played some games like that, players sold cosmetics for in game money in order to p2w their way to top gear but nobody cared because that's only halfway on the road to be a respectable player.

I haven't played any MMOs other than WoW, so I can't comment on the situation for those other games, but in my experience with WoW, I never saw any of these awful players decked in high-end gear in WoW, mainly because hardcore guilds keep a tight control over their rosters in order to maximize performance. If they get to a point where they can carry low-end players to mid-tier gear (we actually see this fairly often with PvP gear, for instance), I don't see how that's a problem, but usually the hardest content and the rewards it yields demands perfect execution from the team as a whole, so the end goal isn't really trivialized by this type of service.

08/11/2018 10:36 AMPosted by TobiasPeste
We don't know about the skill:gear ratio we're gonna be dealing with. I don't fully discard combat in Diablo evolving beyond simple point and click.

That's just speculation at this point. I frankly don't expect Blizzard to do this, though. I'm perfectly aware gear is more important than it needs to be in D3, but the game isn't even emphasizing on actual difficulty, just on progressively larger numbers. However, the underlying combat mechanics are rock solid. They place a high emphasis on compelling gameplay, so regardless of whatever design gripes I may have with D3, I can't argue with the way they design combat across all their games. I can't say I've ever been disappointed by it.

08/11/2018 10:36 AMPosted by TobiasPeste
IMO the only way to fix all this mess w.o completely neutering the game is to make the game really intense mechanically (aiming, positioning and block/dodge manually, going the DS route... yes, you guessed right: Diablo in full 3d) or use a restrictive trading scheme that doesn't suck (the only option here is going 'tiered item-for-item' bartering).

That's what I'd hope for, but it's mainly wishful thinking, given the fact Blizzard nowadays wants to cater to a wider audience. DS may be somewhat popular, but it remains a relatively niche type of game within the big picture. I wouldn't expect that type of game given Blizzard's glaring obsession with ESports, and mostly, the massive amount of profit to be made there. Souls games are great and all, but they're not massive cash cows given the relatively steep learning curve which isn't very likely to appeal to the masses. These games have their place, of course, but I honestly doubt Blizzard is even remotely interested in anything they can't use to reach as vectors for microtransactions to reach as many people as possible. TBH, if they actually show something like that over at Blizzcon this year, I'll be legitimately surprised, but I'm not holding my breath for something like this.
08/10/2018 11:36 AMPosted by TobiasPeste
08/10/2018 06:41 AMPosted by GameFiles
Tell me what you think!


The auction houses were terrible. Don't want it again.


+1 the biggest problem with the auction house being implemented is that the drops are extremely nerfed, in comparison to how they are right now.

In order to have an auction, and a thriving auction at that, is that drop rates have to go way, way down, in comparison to right now.

edit: If the drop rates get nerfed....who wants the auction house back?

Because of this drop rate being nerfed, I would say NO to auction houses.

edit: If I'm told ahead of time that D4 is having an auction house, I won't be wasting my money buying it.

I hope that D4 has drop rates comparable to how D3 is right now, or something close to it.
F trading.

I didn't trade in D1 or D2, and I only traded in D3 because it was the only way to get upgrades.

Now that I can find my own gear, it's much, much better.

Soilent Green, it's made out of GEAR!!!!!!!!!
08/11/2018 05:39 PMPosted by TOPCommander
Trading definitely needs to come back. It's one of the best end-game aspects of D2.


Is this where I call you a troll because it's all you ever post?

The whole point of getting powerful and high leveled in D2 was so you could grind for GG loot more efficiently and comfortably. For me that was THE reason to level up and grind for loot, so I could become powerful and loot for even better loot more efficiently.


That's the whole point of leveling in every ARPG I know about. What's your point?

I'm also gonna point something out here you might not have noticed.

You didn't mention trading at all in that paragraph.

The next issue with both auction houses was that it made "trading" ridiculously easy, and because of that everyone would just get their gear upgrades on the AH. it was too easy to get gear from the AH.


Well, you're half right. People didn't get their gear from the AH because it was easy, though. They got it from the AH because it was really the ONLY way to get gear, since the drop rates in the game itself were so ridiculously low.

Trading in D2 was like this:

You play the game and you find items, and you trade those items for other items. It was a barter style trading and some items that were worth a lot to one player were potentially less desirable by another player. In D2 you would play a paladin and find a sorceress orb, and maybe could trade that sorceress orb for a paladin shield. This is awesome, and D4 needs to bring this back.


What is the problem with playing a paladin and finding a paladin shield? Why do you need to find a sorceress orb first?

Why do you want to add MORE steps to getting geared when you just pointed out the whole reason to level and gear is to do things more efficiently?

Isn't playing a paladin and finding a paladin shield more efficient than playing a paladin, finding a sorceress orb, and using it to get a paladin shield?

Item for Item trading is the fundamental KEY to D4's long term replayability and ultimate success in the eyes of Diablo Enthusiasts.


If by "in the eyes of Diablo Enthusiasts" you mean "in TOPCommander's opinion," then I'd agree. You don't speak for anyone but yourself.
Simple. Ramaldi's gift style item. You spend them on an item to make it tradeable.

D3 is great for allowing the trade in game with who ever you are playing with. But after those 2 hours and if your clan mate wants that old primal that you are replacing, he sits back and watches you salvage an awesome primal that could have been great for him.

With these gifts, Trading becomes worth it but at a great cost. So you better be willing to be selective about your trading which won't be insanely out of control. Clans will appreciate it though and trading some awesome items for ones you don't have would be worth it too.

Problem is it would create black market sites that will trade items for real money. Bots will be rampant too due to allowing trading with anyone. That's the big issue with trading.
08/12/2018 05:48 AMPosted by Steve
Simple. Ramaldi's gift style item. You spend them on an item to make it tradeable.

D3 is great for allowing the trade in game with who ever you are playing with. But after those 2 hours and if your clan mate wants that old primal that you are replacing, he sits back and watches you salvage an awesome primal that could have been great for him.


Most people like TOPC that are interested in trading don't want it to help friends/clans like that. They want it so they can trade it off for profit.

I don't have any issues with doing something so that you could help clan members like that, though.
08/12/2018 05:48 AMPosted by Steve
Problem is it would create black market sites that will trade items for real money. Bots will be rampant too due to allowing trading with anyone. That's the big issue with trading.
Trading could be saved by advanced NPC vendor trading/crafting. I wrote before how to do it here:
02/22/2018 01:41 AMPosted by Skelos
Any kind of P2P trading is doomed to fail since the more experienced players ALWAYS start to play the trading game instead of the normal game in order to maximize their wealth ending with abundant amount of every possible currency/items in the game. P2P trading also destroys any NON-SSF competition since you just get the items from friends/3rd parties.

What is the solution then?

The solution is called advanced NPC vendor trading. The prices are based on the item drop&roll chances. When an item drops in the game, the game "knows" how rare it is - what is its drop&roll chance. Based on that the game "assigns" a sell value to it, which you can convert to gold if you sell it to an NPC town vendor. The opposite process is: You specify the item and the rolls manually and the NPC vendor (who has all possible items in his shop) tells you the cost price - you decide whether to buy it or not.

Example: You find a very rare sword used for end-game builds. You unfortunately play Wizard and can't wield a sword. You are forced with a choice - continue to play this character or create a new one able to use swords and use the rare sword you just found. You decide to continue playing the Wizard and sell the sword to an NPC town vendor for 1/2 (a half) of what it will cost to buy it (vendors always buy at such ratio). With the received gold you equip the Wizard and continue to play. After some time you decide to roll a Barb and you remember you sold the sword to the NPC vendor - now if you want to buy the exact same sword it will cost you double of the gold you received for it.

The above example shows how items could be transferred to currency and promotes the acquiring of stash space (we are sure such thing will come in D4 as a microtransaction) - people will store gold in the form of items in their stashes to keep useful items they could use for future builds.

Such kind of NPC vendor trading makes trading meaningful.

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