Wow, the power-creep is insane. What happened?

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Haven't played since season 7. Came back to see what's new. There were interesting things being added to the game back then. LoN, bloods, the cube, etc. We were escaping the clutches of the cookie cutter sets.

Now, it's all back to the sets. Holy mother of god, what did Blizzard do? It's like they just slapped on huge percentage bonuses on the sets and called it a night. All that effort to make legendaries useful and interesting again were essentially undone.

Then there's the power-creep, which is kind of a by-product of what's happened with the sets. "Kind of" because the game was already suffering from a power-creep, but now it's gone full-throttle. I think this game needs a serious power check. I know many won't like it, because, for whatever reason, people tend to like BIG numbers. Higher, faster, bigger numbers!

The torment levels are a joke now. It might as well just be T1, T7, and T10-13. I remember when inferno was almost like no-man's land for hardcore when the game launched. Then the difficulty settings were re-worked where torments 6-8 became the challenging zone.

I think players need to be brought back down to Earth, or, ahem, Sanctuary. It's just getting ridiculous. When they introduced ancient items I joked with a friend that eventually they'll add super ancient or ANCIENT-ancient items. Yep, that's exactly what they did lol.

Grifts in the 50s used to be dangerous as hell. Then the 70s. Now there are people hitting the grift cap.

I also think they should either get rid of the 6-piece sets or at least add some new, smaller sets with single skill or ability specific bonuses. I never liked the 6-piece, all-or-nothing setup stuff with limited room for viable variety. Make finding stuff interesting again instead of playing as a glorified recycling truck.

Maybe I'm just jaded, I dunno. Perhaps I've had my fill of Riftablo 3. Bleh. End of rant.
Preach. I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall during some private conversations between developer colleagues in Blizzard while these power creep discussions were being had (and probably pushed from above). You know people coded things against their better judgment.
Either players need to accept that nerfs are part of balancing, or Blizzard needs to hide the numbers to maintain a relative baseline (<build1> is +/- GR levels from <build 2>). Bad idea: Get a mathematician to systematize adjectives, grammar and punctuation and end trillion damage callouts, infinite HP/damage scaling, help the mathematically handicapped players and potentially make balancing more straightforward once you've studied some abstract algebra.
They had to water everything down for the kiddies (no child left behind).

Back in the day GR 30 was hard and paragon 100 was crazy. Now some players are running GR 100 with paragon 1500 in the first weekend of a new season.
08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
Haven't played since season 7. Came back to see what's new. There were interesting things being added to the game back then. LoN, bloods, the cube, etc. We were escaping the clutches of the cookie cutter sets.


You listed half a dozen new systems added to the game in the last 2 or so years. Why would you expect the numbers to be the same? How could that possibly be an important element of the game?

08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
Now, it's all back to the sets. Holy mother of god, what did Blizzard do? It's like they just slapped on huge percentage bonuses on the sets and called it a night. All that effort to make legendaries useful and interesting again were essentially undone.


People are still using legendaries. Sets have been an essential part of the game for a very long time. What are you on about?

08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
for whatever reason, people tend to like BIG numbers. Higher, faster, bigger numbers!


Staying at the exact same power level for the entire time you play is stupid. Gaining 10% damage over hundreds of hours of play and a half dozen upgrades is stupid. The numbers can and should only go up. I personally love that you can go from adequately competent in T13 to absolutely shredding T13. The vast scale of power levels is a good thing. Getting to end game with only a modest increase in power and then staying there is stupid.

08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
The torment levels are a joke now. It might as well just be T1, T7, and T10-13. I remember when inferno was almost like no-man's land for hardcore when the game launched. Then the difficulty settings were re-worked where torments 6-8 became the challenging zone.


So. What. So what if there are some difficulties you don't use. If you aren't using all the difficulties every season, you probably aren't playing efficiently. That's on you. The number of difficulties has zero effect on game play. Pick the best one for you. Ignore the others.

08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
I think players need to be brought back down to Earth, or, ahem, Sanctuary. It's just getting ridiculous.


Cool story from someone that has barely played in two years. What could "ridiculous" possibly mean in this context? Are ancient demons pulled from the earth and shooting out streams of extreme cold doing more damage than they would IRL? Howabout arcane meteors? Is their damage unrealistic?

08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
When they introduced ancient items I joked with a friend that eventually they'll add super ancient or ANCIENT-ancient items. Yep, that's exactly what they did lol.


Ancients are a great addition to the game for so many reasons. These have all been hashed out dozens of times by people that actually play the game. I won't enumerate them here.

And there is exactly zero power creep from primals compared to ancients. GJ failing a joke that was made a billion times two years ago.

08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
Grifts in the 50s used to be dangerous as hell. Then the 70s.


There is a longer and smoother degree of difficulty scaling. There's always a hard difficulty level that you can reach. The specific GR level that that happens at is totally irrelevant.

08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
Now there are people hitting the grift cap.


Slow down nub. There are like 100 people in the whole world playing at that level. It's hardly relevant to the vast majority of players. It's definitely not relevant to some scrub that doesn't play the game. Why do you even care?

08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
I also think they should either get rid of the 6-piece sets


Never going to happen. That would be a tremendous step backwards. D3V was just terrible compared to how it is now.

08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
or at least add some new, smaller sets with single skill or ability specific bonuses.


Those are called legendaries. Most/many individual skills have 2-3 legendaries that modify them.

08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
I never liked the 6-piece, all-or-nothing setup stuff with limited room for viable variety.


If seeing six green items is so horrifically offensive to you, equip a few legendaries and play at a lower level. It's not profoundly different.

Some numbers are different. They happen to represent a real degree of progression. Their scale is actually relevant to other aspects of gameplay, eg incoming monster damage, relative fixed difficulties etc. Almost the entirety of your rant is based on nubby misconceptions. L2P and stop being so triggered by trivialities or QQ.
Lazy game design happened
Insane power creep patch was a forced decision.
When necromancer patch hit, there was a ptr exploit that made it to live servers, and allowed people to wreck GRs at level otherwise unimaginable. It was so widespread that entire leaderboard was full of teams that exploited the broken mechanic.
(I've never seen so many people online like that week!)
Folks grinded hundreds of paragons and crazy level gems.

Blizzard fixed the bug about 10 days later, but there was a tough choice to make.
Nobody in their right mind would ban thousands of players at a glance because devs themselves didn't pay enough attention to ptr feedback.
So everyone with gems over 132 got them rolled back to 132. Even if the one you got before was 100 and you exploited it to 135 you kept a 132. No paragon was rolled back.
Few notorious exploiters got a week of real life vacation.

Next patch brought a lot of class balance, but also huge item multipliers like never seen before. For example Wastes barb set went from 800% to 3000%. But why so crazy, couldn't they have balanced it around existing numbers? Easy, but that would leave 132 gems unobtainable for 99% of the player base. Plus the outrage for allowing the bug to exist for over a week was enormous. New buffs with existing meta (wd, barb, necro, monk) brought the damage of an average group to a level where almost any half dedicated player could legally obtain 132+ gems. Everyone was so happy grinding and upgrading that the incident was forgotten and crowds calmed down.

I am 100%, no, 1000% sure that if it wasn't for the exploit, these crazy buffs would have never been implemented.
Before the necro was released the average power level was still somewhat reasonable. Then necro came and in retrospect it was released way too overpowered. Had it been closer to other classes pre-2.6, the power creep might never had happened.

The exploit Evenstar mentioned very likely also contributed to why class sets and their supporting items were buffed to insane levels. So many people got their gems abnormaly high that Blizzard was basically forced to make these buffs.

Of all the buffs patches 2.6 and 2.6.1 brought I'm only happy about the toughness buffs. The power should've stayed at pre-2.6 level, just make the classes equal.
IMO set items are easier to find than certain legendary items and the fact that the legendary items being underpowered compared to the set items is unacceptable.
Mercury tells the truth. And like it or not, doing grifts in the 100 range is more fun than in the 30's.
Power creeping is fun! People want to climb higher and higher GR each past season so there is the most wanted power creep!! Cheers!!!
Man I remember getting mauled in a grift 25 and being like "HOW ARE PEOPLE FARMING GRIFT 30?!".

Sets need to just be removed already. Bake powers into individual items or something else. LoN had potential to really help but it failed, hard.
Yep, Mercury pretty much summed it up. Thing is, nothing was actually removed, and it isn't Blizzard's fault if you have some sort of mental block telling you that you can't play whatever you want. You can still run around in t10 with zero set items if you actually wanted to.
Personally im not a fan of sets, LoN included, so I don't really use them at all. I think sets should do exciting things and change skills, not just "you do 5500% more damage now just like every other set"

The old M6 set was an excellent example. It changed the way your sentry worked by firing your spenders and they did meaningful damage. Now the M6 uses sentry basically as a gimmick of "If you want that damage bonus and damage reduction bonus you better have all 5 sentries up, also they will do like no real damage because we think that isn't fun"
08/21/2018 08:22 PMPosted by Avalon
They had to water everything down for the kiddies (no child left behind).

Back in the day GR 30 was hard and paragon 100 was crazy. Now some players are running GR 100 with paragon 1500 in the first weekend of a new season.


That is so true and most of the people playing today don't remember that. It is about 80% new people playing. It could even be 90% too
08/22/2018 07:40 AMPosted by Ham
Personally im not a fan of sets, LoN included, so I don't really use them at all. I think sets should do exciting things and change skills, not just "you do 5500% more damage now just like every other set"

The old M6 set was an excellent example. It changed the way your sentry worked by firing your spenders and they did meaningful damage. Now the M6 uses sentry basically as a gimmick of "If you want that damage bonus and damage reduction bonus you better have all 5 sentries up, also they will do like no real damage because we think that isn't fun"


Actually, the Marauders 6 / Natalya 4 combo makes sentries more powerful than the player. The ring of royal grandeur makes interesting set combos possible.
08/22/2018 07:44 AMPosted by Lobsterbash
08/22/2018 07:40 AMPosted by Ham
Personally im not a fan of sets, LoN included, so I don't really use them at all. I think sets should do exciting things and change skills, not just "you do 5500% more damage now just like every other set"

The old M6 set was an excellent example. It changed the way your sentry worked by firing your spenders and they did meaningful damage. Now the M6 uses sentry basically as a gimmick of "If you want that damage bonus and damage reduction bonus you better have all 5 sentries up, also they will do like no real damage because we think that isn't fun"


Actually, the Marauders 6 / Natalya 4 combo makes sentries more powerful than the player. The ring of royal grandeur makes interesting set combos possible.


The auto fire of the spenders is what was so appealing to me though. I don't like the playstyle of it at all now. its very clunky and having a cool pet build like that is what I liked about it. I do get that having 5 sentry spamming unholy lag was a problem but I do miss it.
If I had the option to play the Old M6 set bonuses in the current game I totally would even if it is infinitely weaker. I just really enjoyed that play style with the sentry fire.
08/22/2018 01:03 AMPosted by Jazz
Mercury tells the truth. And like it or not, doing grifts in the 100 range is more fun than in the 30's.


That would depend on how you view it. If you're using huge multipliers on the very limited number of meta builds, then yes as GR 30's would be way too easy to be fun. If you're using a build that doesn't doesn't use a set with +3300% modifiers nor LoN, it doesn't feel that different if the build is finishing rift XX in the same amount of time that the set meta build that is completing GR100+ is.

The only real difference is drops and XP. Not a big deal to me, I run a build that has no sets at all and I find it great fun compared to most meta builds, but I do this being well aware my XP and loot drops are not as frequent.

OP, if you're not getting an ulcer if your XP/Hour or loot drops take a minor dip, running T10-T13 without any sets and a modest about of paragon (I'm sub 1000 still) is quite possible and really opens up the build options it seems you are looking for. Using RoRG, you can mix two or more sets to get a multitude of bonuses without getting that huge damage multiplier, opening even more options on builds. Or just go with no sets and see what you can come up with yourself!

I find GR isn't for me as I dislike time trials, so just do what I do and don't do it that often. Stick with the area of the game you get enjoyment from and don't worry about what the others are doing. You'll find this is still a very fun game.
I agree with Ungiven Fame. The allure of Diablo 2 for me was discovering new builds that could go to the final difficulty. If you really wanted to test your build, you had uber bosses.

Diablo 3 has strayed away from that and attempts to make players feel as though constant powercreep was new content. It's not. Nothing truly changes besides how big the numbers were. Ancient gear didn't add anything but new numbers. Primal gear was supposed to do the exact same thing, but was thankfully changed at the last moment.

Diablo 2 was adding new unique gear, new runewords. THAT is content. That leads to new builds, new concepts!

ARPG's are typically about build diversity. Creating a character and truly building it your way. A well planned build could go all the way in a well made ARPG. Grim Dawn, Titan Quest, Diablo 2 are good examples of well made ARPG. There's a lot of build possibilities in these games.

In Diablo 3, if you don't use the set builds and the mandatory legendary gear to get the most from that set, you have a very hard time pushing higher GR if that's your thing. When you get huge xp and loot drop bonuses from playing higher GR, it's pretty much every player's thing now. Custom builds are dropped for the approved builds. Diversity is drastically cut back. If you want diversity, you gimp yourself to get it.

So, you have to decide: Do you want build diversity or do you want lots of extra loot and XP? Because in Diablo 3, you can't have both.

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