Wow, the power-creep is insane. What happened?

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Power creep is a figment of imagination, and vastly overstated.

Power creep by definition is the power of a player compared to the maximum difficulty of content in the game in unison to the source of power they obtain from the games systems.

Players cannot even clear a GR150 which is the max GR available currently in the system, so this premise of "Power Creep" is inaccurate.

What we have in D3 is a horrible state of class/build balance and an overall lackluster amount of power. Unlike many of you, I WANT TO COMPLETE GR150, and the fun thereafter is trying to find as many unique builds that can also do the same thing!

D2 was this way, PoE is this way (might change with Delve), Torchlight, etc... were all this way.

D3's biggest issue is balance of power, not the amount of power. Afterall, numbers are just numbers. Whether the X% modifiers should be in the game in general is a different discussion, but all it does is change a number, and we all know that Blizzard loves BIG NUMBERS!!!!
08/22/2018 07:52 AMPosted by UngivenFame
Mercury belongs in a game like WoW. Pumping primary stat.


Lets think about this for one second.

I accurately described the game that I and many others love to play.

You have spent the last half of a decade complaining about a game you are in no way forced to play.

And I am the one playing the wrong game? Please.

08/22/2018 07:52 AMPosted by UngivenFame
ARPGs are about bringing a bunch of ways to play to the table - not increasing to infinity.

"Increasing to max power and then staying there" with a bunch of different builds is much more compatible with seasonal gameplay than is increasing to infinity.


Says you. I'd actually say your description is exactly reversed. MMOs are where you hit a plateau of power and stay there. MMOs have a much more intense level of balancing. MMOs require much more structured levels of power to divvy out content.

What you are describing is the early days of D3v. :(

It's telling that instead of asking "Is this fun? Does this expand gameplay?" you are focused on superficial numbers. "Are the numbers the same as they were 10 patches ago?!?!"

08/22/2018 07:52 AMPosted by UngivenFame
It is a disjointed philosophy that this game suffers from.


I think you are conflating your subjective speculations with some absolute truth.
There is another reason that is almost always overlooked.

Negating the effect of paragon. As you know, set bonuses and item skill buffs are multiplicative to your damage. Paragon points, aka main stat, is additive.
The bigger are the multipliers, the less value have the additives.
08/22/2018 08:35 AMPosted by Demonmonger
Players cannot even clear a GR150 which is the max GR available currently in the system, so this premise of "Power Creep" is inaccurate.

GR150 was first cleared on the Asia region servers over a month ago...
https://kr.diablo3.com/ko/rankings/era/10/rift-team-4
08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
Haven't played since season 7. Came back to see what's new. There were interesting things being added to the game back then. LoN, bloods, the cube, etc. We were escaping the clutches of the cookie cutter sets.

Now, it's all back to the sets. Holy mother of god, what did Blizzard do? It's like they just slapped on huge percentage bonuses on the sets and called it a night. All that effort to make legendaries useful and interesting again were essentially undone.

Then there's the power-creep, which is kind of a by-product of what's happened with the sets. "Kind of" because the game was already suffering from a power-creep, but now it's gone full-throttle. I think this game needs a serious power check. I know many won't like it, because, for whatever reason, people tend to like BIG numbers. Higher, faster, bigger numbers!

The torment levels are a joke now. It might as well just be T1, T7, and T10-13. I remember when inferno was almost like no-man's land for hardcore when the game launched. Then the difficulty settings were re-worked where torments 6-8 became the challenging zone.

I think players need to be brought back down to Earth, or, ahem, Sanctuary. It's just getting ridiculous. When they introduced ancient items I joked with a friend that eventually they'll add super ancient or ANCIENT-ancient items. Yep, that's exactly what they did lol.

Grifts in the 50s used to be dangerous as hell. Then the 70s. Now there are people hitting the grift cap.

I also think they should either get rid of the 6-piece sets or at least add some new, smaller sets with single skill or ability specific bonuses. I never liked the 6-piece, all-or-nothing setup stuff with limited room for viable variety. Make finding stuff interesting again instead of playing as a glorified recycling truck.

Maybe I'm just jaded, I dunno. Perhaps I've had my fill of Riftablo 3. Bleh. End of rant.


You are damn right. They gave a lot of damage buff 300-800% damage for free. Instead to reduce power creep set damage they did buff the other set damages. They killed all effort to make they did from season 1 to season 7 with just one move.
08/22/2018 07:20 AMPosted by ragman
Yep, Mercury pretty much summed it up. Thing is, nothing was actually removed, and it isn't Blizzard's fault if you have some sort of mental block telling you that you can't play whatever you want. You can still run around in t10 with zero set items if you actually wanted to.


I am aware of lowering the difficulty to play on my own. In fact, my current sader is a lulzy fanaticism build with the gems Simplicity and Mirinae that I made out of boredom.

But that's the thing, "on my own". I like playing with others, and damn near everybody is trying to push it to the limit (heh). Whether it's my friends list, clan list, or pub games, it's all about grifting. Sets now feel like height requirements for amusement park rides that only NBA centers can pass. Want to ride that griftcoaster with your pals? Well too bad, your build isn't tall enough lol.

In other words, it can get a little lonely, especially for a game that requires constant internet connection :(

08/22/2018 08:05 AMPosted by Zeddicuus
So, you have to decide: Do you want build diversity or do you want lots of extra loot and XP? Because in Diablo 3, you can't have both.


This ^, and I'll amend: do you want diversity and to play alone, or do you want a bigger carrot at the end of the stick, i.e. more loot and reward?
Ya know, something that isn't mentioned about D2 "build diversity" is that the most powerful builds ended up being ones that utilized Enigma and CTA, essentially homogenizing the classes. How is it that sets on D3 pointing you in a specific direction somehow is different and less creative than simply slapping one class' most unique skill on an item that every class can use on D2? Same with Infinity, now instead of strategically grouping up with a barbarian and paladin, you can just solo hell baal in ten seconds with your javazon.
08/22/2018 09:14 AMPosted by Cars
08/22/2018 07:20 AMPosted by ragman
Yep, Mercury pretty much summed it up. Thing is, nothing was actually removed, and it isn't Blizzard's fault if you have some sort of mental block telling you that you can't play whatever you want. You can still run around in t10 with zero set items if you actually wanted to.


I am aware of lowering the difficulty to play on my own. In fact, my current sader is a lulzy fanaticism build with the gems Simplicity and Mirinae that I made out of boredom.

But that's the thing, "on my own". I like playing with others, and damn near everybody is trying to push it to the limit (heh). Whether it's my friends list, clan list, or pub games, it's all about grifting. Sets now feel like height bars for amusement park rides that only NBA centers can pass. Want to ride that griftcoaster with your pals? Well too bad, your build isn't tall enough lol.

In other words, it can get a little lonely, especially for a game that requires constant internet connection :(

08/22/2018 08:05 AMPosted by Zeddicuus
So, you have to decide: Do you want build diversity or do you want lots of extra loot and XP? Because in Diablo 3, you can't have both.


This ^, and I'll amend: do you want diversity and to play alone, or do you want a bigger carrot at the end of the stick, i.e. more loot and reward?


Again, this is a mental block. I play rats sometimes, and sometimes I do solo stuff. It's really not a problem.
08/22/2018 09:19 AMPosted by ragman
Ya know, something that isn't mentioned about D2 "build diversity" is that the most powerful builds ended up being ones that utilized Enigma and CTA, essentially homogenizing the classes. How is it that sets on D3 pointing you in a specific direction somehow is different and less creative than simply slapping one class' most unique skill on an item that every class can use on D2? Same with Infinity, now instead of strategically grouping up with a barbarian and paladin, you can just solo hell baal in ten seconds with your javazon.


You're assuming I regard D2 without faults. I don't.

08/22/2018 08:52 AMPosted by Evenstar
There is another reason that is almost always overlooked.

Negating the effect of paragon. As you know, set bonuses and item skill buffs are multiplicative to your damage. Paragon points, aka main stat, is additive.
The bigger are the multipliers, the less value have the additives.


The paragon system is an illusion of choice anyway. It's just a race to plvl 800, then main stat dump.

08/22/2018 01:03 AMPosted by Jazz
Mercury tells the truth. And like it or not, doing grifts in the 100 range is more fun than in the 30's.


...Which strongly encourages players to don sets, especially if they want to play co-op with others.
08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
Haven't played since season 7. Came back to see what's new. There were interesting things being added to the game back then. LoN, bloods, the cube, etc. We were escaping the clutches of the cookie cutter sets.


We never escaped and were never on the way to escaping. LoN proved what a few people already understood. unless LoN (or anything else...) does the most damage, it's just pointless garbage. So a select few LoN based configurations dominated, because their damage was high, and tonnes of other configurations were never used.

This game cannot escape the idea of "cookie cutter" builds because there is only one measure of success, damage, so either a build does top damage, or its crap and cannot compete.

It also cannot escape the idea of power creep because that one measure of success must increase in order to be entertaining, because players must grow in power, as a result the monsters then get more life.

08/22/2018 12:13 AMPosted by Evenstar
I am 100%, no, 1000% sure that if it wasn't for the exploit, these crazy buffs would have never been implemented.


While this is an amazing story, I had forgotten about, it does not explain why those stupid buffs were implemented before the necromancer and that exploit got here, because this is a phenomenon we have seen time and time again...
08/22/2018 07:49 AMPosted by Zeddicuus
08/22/2018 01:03 AMPosted by Jazz
Mercury tells the truth. And like it or not, doing grifts in the 100 range is more fun than in the 30's.


That would depend on how you view it. If you're using huge multipliers on the very limited number of meta builds, then yes as GR 30's would be way too easy to be fun. If you're using a build that doesn't doesn't use a set with +3300% modifiers nor LoN, it doesn't feel that different if the build is finishing rift XX in the same amount of time that the set meta build that is completing GR100+ is.

The only real difference is drops and XP. Not a big deal to me, I run a build that has no sets at all and I find it great fun compared to most meta builds, but I do this being well aware my XP and loot drops are not as frequent.

OP, if you're not getting an ulcer if your XP/Hour or loot drops take a minor dip, running T10-T13 without any sets and a modest about of paragon (I'm sub 1000 still) is quite possible and really opens up the build options it seems you are looking for. Using RoRG, you can mix two or more sets to get a multitude of bonuses without getting that huge damage multiplier, opening even more options on builds. Or just go with no sets and see what you can come up with yourself!

I find GR isn't for me as I dislike time trials, so just do what I do and don't do it that often. Stick with the area of the game you get enjoyment from and don't worry about what the others are doing. You'll find this is still a very fun game.


Over the last few days I've started experimenting with various builds and what-not while finding some fun. It's just a wasteland in terms of players, hence my prior comment about the redundancy of the multitude of torment levels. I feel like I'm in a fish tank in the middle of the sea. Any time someone invites me to a party for grifts or a T13 game, I need to throw on a set if I want to stay afloat; can't show off a neat-o build that gets wrecked by a skeleton grunt. Now I think I understand why the armory was added lol.

It's funny. Prior to this game's launch, one of the big marketing pitches was how the game would seemingly have an infinite amount of viable and fun builds. While that's still technically true, thanks to the adjustable difficulty, it's also a bit of an illusion where one must isolate themselves from the rest of the community.

We never escaped and were never on the way to escaping. LoN proved what a few people already understood. unless LoN (or anything else...) does the most damage, it's just pointless garbage. So a select few LoN based configurations dominated, because their damage was high, and tonnes of other configurations were never used.

This game cannot escape the idea of "cookie cutter" builds because there is only one measure of success, damage, so either a build does top damage, or its crap and cannot compete.

It also cannot escape the idea of power creep because that one measure of success must increase in order to be entertaining, because players must grow in power, as a result the monsters then get more life.


I suppose you're right. Unlimited difficulty ceiling + greater rewards the higher one goes = fewer and fewer "viable" builds. Bigger and bigger numbers! Like a funnel with sand poured into. The funnel's hole gets smaller and smaller as the sand falls through and eventually only a small amount of large grains remain. It's just the nature of the game, I guess. As Run DMC said, It's just the way it is.

Maybe it's time to accept this game isn't what it was intended to be and it's gone in a direction that conflicts with my desires. Like falling in love and breaking up while young, realize there are more fish out there in the sea. Okay, that's enough fish metaphors.
08/22/2018 10:12 AMPosted by Cars
it's also a bit of an illusion where one must isolate themselves from the rest of the community

Very true. Every time I decide to play so called "fun" build, the fun stops as soon as I farmed the gear. Nobody wants to play with you. You might get lucky and meet some lowbies in T6 who appreciate the help out of desperation, but it wont take long before they will kick your a.ss even if they are p400 and you are p1200.
I typically run multiple different characters with no sets for GR and regular rifts. if anyone else wants to play with me in that style feel free to add me to your friends list!
08/22/2018 08:35 AMPosted by Demonmonger
Power creep is a figment of imagination, and vastly overstated.

Power creep by definition is the power of a player compared to the maximum difficulty of content in the game in unison to the source of power they obtain from the games systems.
That is a rather peculiar definition of power creep. Most people would define power creep as the gradual increase in power resulting from something like massive buffs to set modifiers or the introduction of more primary stat via cald's despair (and then that feeding into itself resulting in even higher leg gems, faster primary stat gain via paragon and cald's). A perfect storm of power creep.

By your definition -- T13, the de jure highest difficulty level because GR150 was supposed to be infinite (ie not attainable), has been trivialized by power creep leaving GR 150 the de facto highest difficulty.

QUOTING MERCURY - WOW PLAYER

Says you. I'd actually say your description is exactly reversed. MMOs are where you hit a plateau of power and stay there.

It's telling that instead of asking "Is this fun? Does this expand gameplay?" you are focused on superficial numbers. "Are the numbers the same as they were 10 patches ago?!?!"
I don't know what world you live in but the standard mmo formula has been to release content at item level X and have it all time gated and then when life players have realistically had a chance to accomplish that, release content at item level X+30. And then X+60. And then an expansion at X+120 etc. Furthermore, characters are very standardized. Predefined items and only 1 or 2 in any given slot for each spec of each class. It is the ultimate carrot on a stick, dog chasing his tail game genre. Diablo 3 borrowed heavily from this philosophy and the results have been underwhelming.

Reducing damage by 50-60% when using skill W, X, Y or Z (depending on set) is not fun. It doesn't expand gameplay much. Likewise, dealing 30 times damage when using skill W, X, Y or Z is not fun and does not expand gameplay. Arguably the only thing that IS fun and DOES expand gameplay is reducing cooldown when using skill W, X, Y or Z. I just don't think that 6 piece sets is the best vehicle for changing what is arguably a design flaw with skills themselves.
08/22/2018 10:47 AMPosted by UngivenFame
08/22/2018 08:35 AMPosted by Demonmonger
Power creep is a figment of imagination, and vastly overstated.

Power creep by definition is the power of a player compared to the maximum difficulty of content in the game in unison to the source of power they obtain from the games systems.
That is a rather peculiar definition of power creep. Most people would define power creep as the gradual increase in power resulting from something like massive buffs to set modifiers or the introduction of more primary stat via cald's despair (and then that feeding into itself resulting in even higher leg gems, faster primary stat gain via paragon and cald's). A perfect storm of power creep.

By your definition -- T13, the de jure highest difficulty level because GR150 was supposed to be infinite (ie not attainable), has been trivialized by power creep leaving GR 150 the de facto highest difficulty.


You're both wrong. Gaining power is only power creep when it invalidates or removes previous content.

Gaining power is the essence of D3. All of the gains in power over the last few major patch cycles have come with major new systems that enhance and run alongside current content and current paths of gaining power. Having more ways to gain power over longer periods of time is content in D3.

So some numbers are bigger. Lots was added to the game since then. How can you be opposed to playing the game and gaining power over time? That's the most classic RPG mechanic.
Do people pay attention to the numbers?

I don't even see them.
08/22/2018 10:58 AMPosted by Mercury


How are you so triggered by some numbers being larger? How can you be so stupidly opposed to playing the game and gaining power over time? That's the most classic RPG mechanic.

You don't like a game you aren't forced to play. Get. Over. It. Snowflake.
How are you so triggered by me giving negative feedback on a franchise I love. I gave no skill trees a chance, runes on rails, primary stat/no gear reqs, weapon damage skills, 4/2 stat system, round robin paragon to infinity and beyond etc. I gave it a chance, I looked for the pros in the features all them years ago. And it didn't satisfy. It shouldn't be repeated. <--- that is my opinion and we can debate the pros and cons but I cannot be WRONG about an OPINION.
08/22/2018 10:47 AMPosted by UngivenFame
QUOTING MERCURY - WOW PLAYER


Hahaha! Just noticed your completely incorrect ad hominem.

Good for you!
08/22/2018 10:58 AMPosted by Mercury
You're both wrong. Gaining power is only power creep when it invalidates or removes previous content. Gaining power is the bread and butter of D3. All of the gains in power over the last few major patch cycles have come with major new systems that enhance and run alongside current content. Having more ways to gain power over longer periods of time is content.

How are you so triggered by some numbers being larger? How can you be so stupidly opposed to playing the game and gaining power over time? That's the most classic RPG mechanic.

You don't like a game you aren't forced to play. Get. Over. It. Snowflake.


To me, powercreep is when numbers get boosted enough to completely trivialize existing content with a definite lack of new content to make the boosts make sense.

All these damage multipliers did not introduce new content. It let one's GR # get higher and that's about it. There's no new gear to tinker with. No new skills to tinker with. No new enemies to face. The new zones they did add are ignored by the majority of the playerbase.

It's just bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers and it trivialized the current difficulties to the point that the majority are hardly used any more. It trivialized Nephalem Rifts by making GR have greater XP and loot. All other parts of the game are basically ignored save GR or when a player decides to craft. Then they just run T13 bounties ASAP to get that atrocity done and over with to get back to 'the real game.'

Yes, power increases occur as one progresses through an RPG, but that should really only occur up to a point. One-shotting every enemy you come across on the max difficulty of any RPG is not a good thing.

As to new systems to run along with this power... Where? Greater Rift is about it and that should is not exactly a valid reason to continually power creep the game to the point all regular difficulties are one shot dullfests and the only thing that matters is GR itself. That sounds like a majorly flawed design to me.
08/22/2018 12:18 PMPosted by UngivenFame
How are you so triggered by me giving negative feedback on a franchise I love. I gave no skill trees a chance, runes on rails, primary stat/no gear reqs, weapon damage skills, 4/2 stat system, round robin paragon to infinity and beyond etc. I gave it a chance, I looked for the pros in the features all them years ago. And it didn't satisfy. It shouldn't be repeated. <--- that is my opinion and we can debate the pros and cons but I cannot be WRONG about an OPINION.


You're just describing a different game. I am discussing a game that actually exists. I am describing a game that I and many other play and enjoy. You're fuming over reality being different from your imagination. You're angry at people liking a game when you could be doing almost anything else.

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