Wow, the power-creep is insane. What happened?

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08/22/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
To me, powercreep is when numbers get boosted enough to completely trivialize existing content with a definite lack of new content to make the boosts make sense.


Agreed.

08/22/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
All these damage multipliers did not introduce new content. It let one's GR # get higher and that's about it. There's no new gear to tinker with. No new skills to tinker with.


I don't think that is true. The expanded range of GRs makes the difficulty curve even smoother and more nuanced. There are tons of different strategies, builds, and playstyles that only exist at low or mid or high tier games. For example, I love putting together ultra high speed builds. I've cleared a few GRs in under one minute. That play style doesn't have room to be relevant when there are only 30 or so GR levels played by the majority of players.

08/22/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
It's just bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers and it trivialized the current difficulties to the point that the majority are hardly used any more.


Difficulty levels are not content. Difficulty is content. Who cares if there is a difficulty level you don't play in? And as I said earlier, if you aren't using all the difficulty levels in a season, you are probably playing inefficiently.

08/22/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
It trivialized Nephalem Rifts by making GR have greater XP and loot.


Not really. It actually made normal rifts into a distinct part of the game. You have speed to mid to hard levels of difficulty in GRs and you have a set difficulty to judge you progression against in normal content. You have dozens of playstyles that only exist in normal rifts because you can take your power far beyond that in GRs.

For example, normal rifts are a great part of casual multiplayer, I've had a few too many beers, game play that wouldn't exist if they were always difficult. Another example is putting together GF builds. They wouldn't be relevant at all if power levels never went past T13 levels. It's fun to get two hundred million+ gold in a vault run. It's fun to put tougher a sage build and farm DBs as fast as possible. It's fun to go from struggling with T13 to absolutely shredding T13. You get to choose what level of play you want and you have a variety of relevant rewards for those different activities. That's a good thing.

08/22/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
All other parts of the game are basically ignored save GR or when a player decides to craft. Then they just run T13 bounties ASAP to get that atrocity done and over with to get back to 'the real game.'


I completely disagree with this sentiment. I love to play GRs. It's the heart of the game and D3 has delivered an incredibly intense but smooth mode of play. On the other hand, I greatly enjoy having a mode of the game that is distinctly different from high GR play. I greatly enjoy making new builds to push the speed and efficiency of torment level activities. GRs don't diminish those things, they add to them.

08/22/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
Yes, power increases occur as one progresses through an RPG, but that should really only occur up to a point.


Why? Says who? Did Moses come down with two tablets of RPG rules? D2 was exactly one thing over and over again. D3 always has something more that you can push. Why do you want that journey to end at an arbitrary plateau?

08/22/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
One-shotting every enemy you come across on the max difficulty of any RPG is not a good thing.


Most games are just straight up power fantasies. Of course you, as the mortal implement of the god head, should become fantastically powerful. That's the point of almost every game in existence.

But being a game that you can play indefinitely, you also have the option through GRs to continue with a high degree of difficulty. It's a complete non-issue.

08/22/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
As to new systems to run along with this power... Where? Greater Rift is about it and that should is not exactly a valid reason to continually power creep the game to the point all regular difficulties are one shot dullfests and the only thing that matters is GR itself. That sounds like a majorly flawed design to me.


Augments, cube recipes, new set mechanics, new legendaries. All of these things have been fantastic for D3. D3v was an immature snooze fest. The gameplay now is amazing. I don't get how some numbers being bigger changes any of that. Why would you trade smaller numbers for a diversity of playstyles and fun mechanics?
there's our weekly PvP updater.
-nice to see your lobby is still happy and grinding.
-the game will flawlessly keep giving you work for years to come.

back to my T10 aRPG now, hf :p
08/22/2018 12:32 PMPosted by Mercury
08/22/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
All these damage multipliers did not introduce new content. It let one's GR # get higher and that's about it. There's no new gear to tinker with. No new skills to tinker with.


I don't think that is true. The expanded range of GRs makes the difficulty curve even smoother and more nuanced. There are tons of different strategies, builds and playstyles that only exist at low or mid or high tier game. For example, I love putting together ultra high speed builds. I've cleared a few GRs in under one minute. That play style doesn't have room to be relevant when there are only 30 or so GR levels played by the majority of players.


low difficulty levels already existed where that was possible. I do not see how more powercreep made a difference in any way other than it trivialized higher difficulties so you could do it at slightly higher GR. Not exactly new content.
Diablo 3 endgame is chasing infinity, which is quite foolish in by itself. I don't find the endgame appealing at all and its itemization is quite boring & lazy.

Diablo 2, despite its flaws, had some variety of endgame. You could trade to accumulate wealth. You could try new builds and see how far you could push it them. You could make PvP "Gods". You also had the classic "loot grind" which included killing a bunch of stuff and bosses Andy, Meph, Diablo and Baal (and others like Pindle). You had the very specific key runs & organ runs.

The thing is, D3's itemization is boring. A Ring dropped? Yawn. A set dropped? Unless you have a new character, it's 99.99% likely to be trash.

In D2, despite its flaws, itemization could be very exciting (subjective, I know). Your random jewel could be a GG one (very unlikely). Your random white item could be useful (Monarch). Your random "Cannot be repaired" weapon could make you REALLY wealthy (with the right amount of sockets, of course)! Runes, despite being too rare, was always nice to get. A Unique Ring dropped? I hope it's SoJ (sometimes, a good Raven might be worth something)! Who could forget the feeling of getting your first Shako? That thing was like... basically, your graduation from a mediocre character to a good one. HoZ? Scream of joy! Amulet? I want to know what it is! Grand Charm in nightmare Act 3 and after? Maybe it's a skill charm! Grand Charm from Pindle, Baal or Corpse Explosion dude? Better spend those gems! A Circlet dropped? RNGesus, please give me something great!

... The list goes on and on.

What's exciting in D3?

D3 has a great combat system. It dropped the balls then dropped its fragments again and again when it comes to itemization.

Let me remind you of what they did over the course of D3 history:

-Blade of Prophecy with MAX DISCIPLINE. Hint: DH can't use that...
-Ouroboros amulet with +XP. Hint: It was pre-Paragon... a level 60 amulet...
-DH set items with Int or Strengh...
-WD weapon rolling cold damage affix. Hint: Back then, Cold Damage on weapon suffered a damage penalty... despite the fact that WD cannot take advantage of that... except with their basic attack. Why was there a penalty again?
-Thundergod's Vigor in WD's loot table (WD has NO lightning based skills)
-Frosties for Crusader (it was removed, but it went on for years) even though Crusader no longer had Cold Skills
-Weapon designed around Skill X but rolling Skill Y instead...
-Set items (like Helm) clearly designed for Skill A but rolls Skill B (unsupported)
-etc.

D3 itemization is an abomination.
08/22/2018 12:40 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
low difficulty levels already existed where that was possible. I do not see how more powercreep made a difference in any way other than it trivialized higher difficulties so you could do it at slightly higher GR. Not exactly new content.


Low difficulty levels always existed, but they weren't nearly as relevant. They were in fact trivialized by the difficulty cap. There are now tons of reasons to play in those lower difficulties that simply didn't exist in previous iterations of the game. That's the exact opposite of the negative side of power creep.

Besides, gaining power is fun. I love pushing builds. I've spent hours running the same GR with slight variations of enchants, passives and runes trying to find that sweet spot to beat the next level. It's fun. It's fun that there are both low and high difficulty areas of the game.
So if the lower difficulties are trivialized by the difficulty cap, power creep is even worse than you claim as you're not only trivializing the difficulty cap outside of GR, you're trivializing the lower difficulties even more.

There is nothing wrong with gaining power, so long as it's in context with the game. Max difficulty SHOULD be difficult even with a high powered character. Currently max difficulty outside of GR is a complete joke as it's been trivialized by the power creep that was added for the sole intent of artificially boosting players into a higher GR. Instead of skill to get higher, they got the raw power to do it until they hit the new GR# that is their skill cap. How do we push them higher? Even more power creep? Again, that's not content. Nothing new is added, nothing has changed besides trivializing previously challenging difficulties even further.
08/22/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
So if the lower difficulties are trivialized by the difficulty cap, power creep is even worse than you claim as you're not only trivializing the difficulty cap outside of GR, you're trivializing the lower difficulties even more.


Nope. Because those lower difficulties are still relevant and fun. In previous versions of D3, lower difficulties just meant it took exponentially more time to gather equipment. The difficulty cap was balanced such that only a few players could enjoy that level of play. Now everyone can play nearly however they want to in T13. Now there is something to do beyond that. They compliment each other instead of cancelling each other out.

T13 is a fixed and eventually casual level of difficulty. GRs go past that. How is that a problem? You can always play GRs when T13 becomes too easy.
08/22/2018 11:04 AMPosted by DOA
Do people pay attention to the numbers?

I don't even see them.

I have them turned on, but I don't ever really notice them. What I do notice is if monsters are dying faster or if I'm dying faster due to a particular gear change. I can feel the difference if a build slows down or speeds things up despite the sheet damage/toughness it gives.

As for the complaints about sets, even if there were absolutely no sets in D3, there would be still be certain mixes of various legendaries that would stand out above others, and those non-set builds would effectively be mandatory to use if you were pushing higher content or wanting to play with others who do.

There is absolutely nothing stopping people from playing sub-optimal, quirky builds that they enjoy, but it's not reasonable for those experimental players to expect that they'll be able to compete against those using the optimal builds or even be able to run with them in many cases. What people are really complaining about is that the far majority of the other players in D3 are interested first in foremost in pushing the higher content in the most optimal way possible instead of experimenting with original builds in lower content.

It really seems like the Spike vs. Johnny vs. Timmy personality conflict that was recognized in the MTG card game many years ago:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/timmy-johnny-and-spike-2002-03-08
08/22/2018 12:50 PMPosted by Mercury
Low difficulty levels always existed, but they weren't relevant. They were in fact trivialized by the difficulty cap. There are now tons of reasons to play in those lower difficulties that simply didn't exist in previous iterations of the game. That's the exact opposite of the negative side of power creep.


This is not the exact opposite of the negative side of power creep.
The negative side is the numbers are seen constantly growing to remain appealing and/or relevant.

The opposite is when those numbers stop growing and by the nature of the rules and ideas surrounding them, they remain appealing and/or relevant.

That cannot happen in Diablo 3, because its only point of interest is the growth of offensive output to overcome the constantly inflating HP bars of the countless walking pylons in the dungeons.

The numbers in Diablo 3 do not become interesting as soon as a player decides to just lower the difficulty, and experience smaller numbers.

That player is simply a moron with his head in the sand ignoring the fundamentals of the topic.
08/22/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Shurgosa
This is not the exact opposite of the negative side of power creep.


I didn't say the exact opposite of power creep. I said the exact opposite of the negative side of power creep, ie trivializing content.

And I stand by that idea. The power levels gained in high GR content expands the types of activities that are fun and profitable in lower difficulties. ie The exact opposite of trivializing content.
Pushing higher GR would actually be more "exciting" if gems actually were more interesting. Additional "Tier" of powers would actually be a better powercreep than just random number boost on boring sets.

Pushing higher and higher GR is just a "waste of time". When I say "waste of time", I literally mean it. You have to grind SO MANY more GR to boost your gem so that you can "augment" your gear.

There's a reason why they are allowing us to get additional gem upgrade per run --- because of senseless increase of GR levels. If we go beyond the current cap at some point, don't be surprised that we get a sixth or seventh "gem upgrade" masquerading as generous content.

Gems "gaining XP and levels" as you complete GRs would be better, IMO, than the current system. Basically, taking a whole new Gem to a high GR would pretty much skip all that useless time sink and reach a desirable level.

08/22/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Cobaltus
As for the complaints about sets, even if there were absolutely no sets in D3, there would be still be certain mixes of various legendaries that would stand out above others, and those non-set builds would effectively be mandatory to use if you were pushing higher content or wanting to play with others who do.


We will always have more efficient and effective build. It will always happen.

HOWEVER, the difference between an optimal build and a random fun build wouldn't be nearly as big as it is right now. Set items cripple builds.

I remember in D3V, I could combine RoV, Sentry and some other spender (BoL or MS) and still be pretty effective. With Sets? Hah, good luck using skills that aren't supported by the current set you're using!

Yes, we will always have better builds, but Sets (the ones in D3 anyway) actually destroy more builds than they can ever generate. The icing on the cake are those stupid Legendary items with +XXX% damage to skill Y, which further cripples potential builds within the set itself.
08/22/2018 01:16 PMPosted by Mercury
08/22/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Shurgosa
This is not the exact opposite of the negative side of power creep.


I didn't say the exact opposite of power creep. I said the exact opposite of the negative side of power creep, ie trivializing content.

And I stand by that idea. The power levels gained in high GR content expands the types of activities that are fun and profitable in lower difficulties. ie The exact opposite of trivializing content.

Learn to read.

08/22/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Shurgosa
That cannot happen in Diablo 3, because its only point of interest is the growth of offensive output to overcome the constantly inflating HP bars of the countless walking pylons in the dungeons.


Spoken like a true nub. Pushing GRs is fun and pushing GRs is HARD. You don't have a clue. You're just a sad angry little man without any hobby but trolling.


You know, it's not just this thread, but on this forum in general I've noticed the vitriol and condescension in your demeanor. It must be exhausting being such a contentious and miserable person all the time.
08/22/2018 01:45 PMPosted by Cars
You know, it's not just this thread, but on this forum in general I've noticed the vitriol and condescension in your demeanor. It must be exhausting being such a contentious and miserable person all the time.


It's actually pretty great slaying nubs and destroying fallacies. It beats obsessing over the absolute value of the damage scale for so many years. :)
08/22/2018 01:51 PMPosted by Mercury
08/22/2018 01:45 PMPosted by Cars
You know, it's not just this thread, but on this forum in general I've noticed the vitriol and condescension in your demeanor. It must be exhausting being such a contentious and miserable person all the time.


It's actually pretty great slaying nubs and destroying fallacies.

What must really suck is bumbling through the world playing at being the victim because some big bad numbers are so scary.


All right, it's like this. You have three options:

1. Have a respectful and, hopefully, meaningful discussion.
2. Have a discussion while being an !@#$%^- to those you disagree with.
3. Do not partake in discussion.

Feel free to try options 1 and 3 any time you want. But if all you're going to do is go with option 2, then don't expect others to honor you.
08/22/2018 10:58 AMPosted by Mercury
Get. Over. It. Snowflake.
08/22/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Mercury
Hahaha! Just noticed your completely incorrect ad hominem.

GFY.

So, are antagonistic ad hominem attacks only allowed when you're making them?
08/22/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Shurgosa
08/21/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Cars
Haven't played since season 7. Came back to see what's new. There were interesting things being added to the game back then. LoN, bloods, the cube, etc. We were escaping the clutches of the cookie cutter sets.


We never escaped and were never on the way to escaping. LoN proved what a few people already understood. unless LoN (or anything else...) does the most damage, it's just pointless garbage. So a select few LoN based configurations dominated, because their damage was high, and tonnes of other configurations were never used.

This game cannot escape the idea of "cookie cutter" builds because there is only one measure of success, damage, so either a build does top damage, or its crap and cannot compete.

It also cannot escape the idea of power creep because that one measure of success must increase in order to be entertaining, because players must grow in power, as a result the monsters then get more life.

08/22/2018 12:13 AMPosted by Evenstar
I am 100%, no, 1000% sure that if it wasn't for the exploit, these crazy buffs would have never been implemented.


While this is an amazing story, I had forgotten about, it does not explain why those stupid buffs were implemented before the necromancer and that exploit got here, because this is a phenomenon we have seen time and time again...

These buffs were implemented next patch after dlc release. Not before, not together with necro, but next one after. Exploit was found on necro ptr and made it to live servers few days after necro was out.
08/22/2018 02:00 PMPosted by Cars
All right, it's like this. You have three options:

1. Have a respectful and, hopefully, meaningful discussion.
2. Have a discussion while being an !@#$%^- to those you disagree with.
3. Do not partake in discussion.

Feel free to try options 1 and 3 any time you want. But if all you're going to do is go with option 2, then don't expect others to honor you.


You are actually completely correct on this. I have been pretty harsh. I'm sorry.
08/22/2018 03:15 PMPosted by Meteorblade
08/22/2018 10:58 AMPosted by Mercury
Get. Over. It. Snowflake.
08/22/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Mercury
Hahaha! Just noticed your completely incorrect ad hominem.

GFY.

So, are antagonistic ad hominem attacks only allowed when you're making them?


They are allowed when someone is being a snowflake. They are allowed when someone does need to get over it. ;)

I was just correcting UF's incorrect statement. I haven't played WoW since Cata. I also enjoyed how he had to wiggle that lie in as part of his logical strategy. Calling me a wow player? Ouch!
08/22/2018 01:17 PMPosted by DoomBringer
Pushing higher GR would actually be more "exciting" if gems actually were more interesting. Additional "Tier" of powers would actually be a better powercreep than just random number boost on boring sets.


I really like this idea. GR 75 would be a great casual level for that. An additional rank 75 attribute could be a fun a few different mechanics to the game. It's just slightly past the requirement for primals. I think it could also be an interesting way to address some balance issues that currently exist between various gems.

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