Wow, the power-creep is insane. What happened?

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08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
So called power creep is called for because there have been changes made to the game in the last decade or so since its release. It is called for when there have been numerous additions made to the game.


That is still no reason to boost power as much as they have. They could have balanced those additions with the game as it was instead of making power creep seem as the only answer. Of course, just bloating numbers is an easy answer that works in appeasing some people.

08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
The alternative would be going down GRs every time a patch is released that adds anything to the game. You'd logon and then need to acquire the new powers just to stay even. That is obviously a negative experience.


How would them patching anything to the game mean an automatic decrease in GR? You should elaborate here as you give no details on just how it would drop.

08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
Most of the shifts in player power over the last few patches have been balance related. Which is to say that many different play styles were under performing relative to a select number of play styles. It is absolutely not a problem that those builds jumped a few GR levels between patches.


Those specific builds, sure. sometimes a minor boost can help with balance. I"m not arguing that. But explain the attempt to try to make primal be +30% stats across the entire board for all builds and still kept the large gap in builds? Bad power creep is bad.

08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
Gains in damage output actually raise the skill cap for a given build. When you are doing more damage, you go up in GR levels and therefore you also start taking more damage. Gameplay gets significantly tighter as you go up in GR levels.


What about boosts to damage reduction that occured as well? Those make a difference.

08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
It's beyond patronizing that you are talking about the skills required for high GR play when you don't actually play at those levels. You're a GR virgin. Don't pretend you know anything about end game level GRs.


Ad hominem. Any other attempted insults you want to toss into this?

08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
So called power creep has brought augmentation, cube recipes, new builds that were never possible due to balance issues, and new types of builds due to having a variety of meaningful difficulty levels. You are completely wrong on this issue.


Power creep shouldn't be necessary due to balance issues when balancing the issues without power creep would be a feasible thing. Same for encourageing build diversity. There is other ways to balance than +800% damage and call it a day. Just because you say I am wrong doesn't make it true.

08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
It hasn't trivialized anything at all.


T13 is easier now than it used to be when it first came out. Power creep has made it easier, thus trivialized it. Moving on.

08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
Normal through T13 is still a large part of the game. There are also ways to play beyond that. Both are still valid parts of the game despite some numbers changing.


They don't feel valid when every patch makes T13 feel easier and easier when very little has changed about my character besides the fact they boosted those damage multipliers on my gear. I don't want the game easier. If I did, I'd go play the lower difficulties.

This isn't even close to true. 99% of the game exists in non GR activities, ie rifts, bounties, campaign, db farming, goblin farming and so on. {/quote]

Chasing goblins has been trivialized by the boosted rewards of high GR. Rewards in rifts are trivialized by the bloated rewards in GR. Bounties are trivialized by the power creep since you can fly through and one shot everything, which wasn't always the case.

08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
The highest torment level difficulty has always been something that players can dominate.


True, but the power creep just keeps making it easier. Why? What's the point in trivializing the other content so much?

08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
The power levels of the game have always extended well beyond torment difficulty. The only difference now is that there are more sets and builds and playstyles that can achieve that.


A lot of those builds could have done it quite a while ago, before the major power creep that isn't needed.

08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
That seems to be your only line. You keep repeating it with out demonstrating how it is true. I think I have shown why you are wrong on both counts.


You haven't shown me anything than the fact you just want power creep at the cost of trivializing everything else in the game even more than it currently is.

I'll repeat it for you one more time, because you love it. Constantly boosting stats does nothing for the game. There is nothing new when power creep is implemented. You've not increased in skill because of power creep, Blizzard just took you by the hand and walked you up a couple of steps so you can feel better about yourself.
08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
Gains in damage output actually raise the skill cap for a given build. When you are doing more damage, you go up in GR levels and therefore you also start taking more damage. Gameplay gets significantly tighter as you go up in GR levels.

It's beyond patronizing that you are talking about the skills required for high GR play when you don't actually play at those levels. You're a GR virgin. Don't pretend you know anything about end game level GRs.


I don't know about that... back when I was still playing, we had cheating barbs pulling/prepping mobs together, while I, the Monk, would just tag along, drag monsters around our DPS and make sure he or she stays alive... with the occasional blind to interrupt big attack...

They can increase the number all they want, it doesn't actually, from my point of view, make the game any more engaging.

While heavily unbalanced, D3V (Inferno) has some of the most intense boss fights I've had in a Diablo game.

I had to time my Smokescreen properly to survive. I build strategy with complete strangers on how we can approach a boss. The fight was almost unfair, but it was doable if we did everything perfectly.

In GR, there's just so many RNG involved. Wrong RG? Game over. Bad pylon placing? Game over. Trash mobs in a needlessly long Rift? Probably game over.

In GR, when you fail, there's plenty of external factor.

In D3V, you could actually improve yourself. Pick appropriate skills, time your survival skill properly. Rotate your stuns on boss... or just stun that freaking Rakanoth before he summons soul-lashers!
How would them patching anything to the game mean an automatic decrease in GR? You should elaborate here as you give no details on just how it would drop.


Augmentation raised the amount of power players can gain while playing the game. For example, 7000 main stat from augments will increase your GR level by a few levels if you have 10000 main stat to start with.

So either augments raise your GR level or 10000 main stat has to do less damage by itself after the patch so that if you eventually acquire those augments, you will be at the same level as before the patch. It's obviously a negative experience to introduce new mandatory content just to stay at the same power level.

It's also beyond obvious that gaining power is fun. It is the core activity of any Diablo game. You kill things, you get loot, you get power. Having more systems available for that is a good thing.

What about boosts to damage reduction that occured as well? Those make a difference.


They keep pace with mid tier GRs. Going up 20 GR levels almost doubles the amount of incoming damage. Most players aren't doubling their toughness in that same interval. And if you are really going to push, you are going to be selecting more and more damaging gear stats over defensive stats. You need to rely more and more on selective play styles to mitigate damage.

GRs can and should become more lethal as you progress into higher levels.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about as you haven't ever played at those levels.

But explain the attempt to try to make primal be +30% stats across the entire board for all builds and still kept the large gap in builds? Bad power creep is bad.


An astute observer might notice that that never made it into the game. Besides, the problem was never that an item raised your power level, that is a very basic concept for Diablo games, the problem was that those items were too rare to have that boost without a lot of negative side effects. Hence the current iteration. Your complaint is a non-issue and you are yet again back to bad power creep is bad circular logic.

08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
It's beyond patronizing that you are talking about the skills required for high GR play when you don't actually play at those levels. You're a GR virgin. Don't pretend you know anything about end game level GRs.


Ad hominem. Any other attempted insults you want to toss into this?


You are being patronizing. You haven't experienced high level play. You're describing something that you don't know about. It isn't ad hominem when it is both true and relevant to your argument. You don't know anything about the skills required in high level play. Your commentary on end game level play is nothing but non-sense from an inexperienced nub.

Chasing goblins has been trivialized by the boosted rewards of high GR. Rewards in rifts are trivialized by the bloated rewards in GR. Bounties are trivialized by the power creep since you can fly through and one shot everything, which wasn't always the case.


GR's barely provides more gear than goblins or any other T13 content. It's also completely disproportionate to the power levels involved in high GR content. eg You do about double damage to get about 10% more XP and loot. Additionally, the XP and gem ranks provided by high GRs are only relevant to high GRs. You can continue to play in T13 content without sacrificing much at all.

In fact, you do play that content all the time. You have said it your self. You only play non-GR content. How can it be invalid if you play it? I have also already enumerated all the other reasons why lower difficulty content is still played consistently. It is obviously still valid content.

Look, you are gushing about how much fun you are having in lower difficulties even though there are stronger setups for higher difficulties:

08/22/2018 07:49 AMPosted by Zeddicuus
The only real difference is drops and XP. Not a big deal to me, I run a build that has no sets at all and I find it great fun compared to most meta builds, but I do this being well aware my XP and loot drops are not as frequent.

OP, if you're not getting an ulcer if your XP/Hour or loot drops take a minor dip, running T10-T13 without any sets and a modest about of paragon (I'm sub 1000 still) is quite possible and really opens up the build options it seems you are looking for. Using RoRG, you can mix two or more sets to get a multitude of bonuses without getting that huge damage multiplier, opening even more options on builds. Or just go with no sets and see what you can come up with yourself!


True, but the power creep just keeps making it easier. Why? What's the point in trivializing the other content so much?


It only makes it easier for builds that were under powered. Players have been playing past GR100 for a long time now. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a GR100 capable build can crush T13. Nothing has changed except for some rebalancing. Demanding that numbers stay the same for the sake of numbers staying the same is a detriment to the game.

A lot of those builds could have done it quite a while ago, before the major power creep that isn't needed.


See, you agree with me. Some builds could always dominate T13. More builds are now available due to number patches. Diversity of builds in T13 going up is always a good thing.

08/23/2018 03:06 PMPosted by Zeddicuus
Constantly boosting stats does nothing for the game.


It's hardly constant. T13 was introduced years ago. Cube powers and recipes were introduced years ago. There was one major balance patch in the last year and a half. The rate of major game changes is both consistent and very conservative.

Besides, I have already covered why that hasn't changed much about most of the game. You yourself still play all the same content.
08/23/2018 03:21 PMPosted by DoomBringer
I don't know about that... back when I was still playing, we had cheating barbs pulling/prepping mobs together, while I, the Monk, would just tag along, drag monsters around our DPS and make sure he or she stays alive... with the occasional blind to interrupt big attack...


CC and player skill and great party synergy can mitigate a lot of damage. But you can see that a character can take fewer and fewer hits as you go up in GR levels. Also, solo play has even fewer options for mitigating damage.

It's also fairly easy for a skilled player to ride the difficulty curve to high GRs. Every leaderboard winds up with a few records set by the best players with low paragon, gear, etc.

Skilled players don't get squeezed until later GRs. Play any pub GR and you will see plenty of low level crusaders just floundering with condemn. You will also see more skilled players dominating in those GRs with similar levels of gear.

There are plenty of interesting factors that go into difficulty. Increased lethality in higher difficulties is pretty typical, especially for newer players and eventually for all players.
Zed wants all of us to smell the roses.

Strange how he keeps saying he will play his way and then he constantly wants the rest of us to follow him.

That ain’t the definition of play it your way.
Lol at people thinking the powercreep here is normal and natural...

Show me another game that 4 years ago you did 10mil dmg and now you do 100 trillion. Show me a game have that kind of multiplier over the years

The powercreep is out of control because babies cried over nerfs and Blizzard adopeted a "no nerf, just buff" policy, so when 1 set got ahead of others, they buffed the others, but then ended up another one being stronger, and so on...

And some people dont think its stupid to have 17 base dificulty levels and (not anymore) endless GR. This is proof of lazy balance design
08/23/2018 06:03 PMPosted by Tubs
Show me another game that 4 years ago you did 10mil dmg and now you do 100 trillion. Show me a game have that kind of multiplier over the years


So there can't be any power creep because there isn't any in other games? Both the premise and your conclusion are incorrect. It's not enough that D3 needs to stay the same for its entire life, it needs to also stay the same as other games. And not being the exact same as other games is "lazy" design. Right.

08/23/2018 06:03 PMPosted by Tubs
The powercreep is out of control because babies cried over nerfs and Blizzard adopeted a "no nerf, just buff" policy, so when 1 set got ahead of others, they buffed the others, but then ended up another one being stronger, and so on...

And some people dont think its stupid to have 17 base dificulty levels and (not anymore) endless GR. This is proof of lazy balance design


You are the one so grievously offended by an arbitrary number. You're the one that is mad because some numbers have been changed. It is an undeniable fact that a ton of new and fun features have been added to the game in the last ~7 years. "Things should always be the same!" is an extremely dubious design principle.

And wow, what a low bar for scary numbers. 17 offends you even though you can always choose to not play a difficulty. You can only play one difficulty at at time. It doesn't matter at all how many other difficulties there are. They don't have any effect on the game if you aren't in them.

And again, it has been covered many times throughout all of these reductionist nonsense threads that all of those difficulties are played at some point in a season.

You can skip some due to luck or skill here and there. So what. The alternative would be grinding out a smaller number of difficulties for longer periods of time with fewer changes in game play.
So your argument is that there can't be any power creep because there isn't any in other games. It's not enough that D3 needs to stay the same for its entire life, it needs to also stay the same as other games. Also, not staying the exact same as other games is "lazy" design. Right.


There are lazy ways of "power creeping" AKA increasing numbers mindlessly like Blizzard is doing.

Then, there is the smart way.

Want to make ET deal more damage?

Blizzard's way: Deal X% more damage per ET out there.
A different approach: ET now pursue a nearby enemy.

The latter will effectively increase the damage per cast, since ET will hit the same target more often. It is a power increase, but an interesting one.

Now, apply that to other skills.
08/23/2018 06:35 PMPosted by DoomBringer
There are lazy ways of "power creeping" AKA increasing numbers mindlessly like Blizzard is doing.


More circular logic. "Do it the good way instead of the bad way!" Obviously.

08/23/2018 06:35 PMPosted by DoomBringer
The latter will effectively increase the damage per cast, since ET will hit the same target more often. It is a power increase, but an interesting one.


There are pros and cons to both methods. Having legendary and set items that increase your damage is a perfectly reasonable part of any Diablo game.
More circular logic. "Do it the good way instead of the bad way!" Obviously.


One way opens up possibilities. The other way does absolutely nothing.

08/23/2018 06:36 PMPosted by Mercury
There are pros and cons to both methods. Having legendary and set items that increase your damage is a perfectly reasonable part of any Diablo game.


To the point of making nearly everything else irrelevant?
08/23/2018 06:35 PMPosted by DoomBringer
So your argument is that there can't be any power creep because there isn't any in other games. It's not enough that D3 needs to stay the same for its entire life, it needs to also stay the same as other games. Also, not staying the exact same as other games is "lazy" design. Right.


There are lazy ways of "power creeping" AKA increasing numbers mindlessly like Blizzard is doing.

Then, there is the smart way.

Want to make ET deal more damage?

Blizzard's way: Deal X% more damage per ET out there.
A different approach: ET now pursue a nearby enemy.

The latter will effectively increase the damage per cast, since ET will hit the same target more often. It is a power increase, but an interesting one.

Now, apply that to other skills.


Interesting. While playing last night, I was thinking to myself: what if damage %s of sets were reduced to more reasonable levels and a new form of loot was introduced that allowed players to choose more than one rune for a particular skill? Similar to that 2-handed flail the crusader has, but give the player the option of which rune(s). It would open the door for some new builds and keep things interesting instead of just piling on bigger numbers. Of course, some skills and runes would need tweaking to help accommodate an idea like this.
08/23/2018 06:55 PMPosted by DoomBringer
One way opens up possibilities. The other way does absolutely nothing.


This isn't true. Augments, for example, allow many builds to play through and past T13 that wouldn't have been viable at lower power levels. Having a large distribution of power levels allows for new builds like speed builds and bounty builds and pushing builds. Raising power levels changes a number of statistical relationships, eg Outgoing versus Incoming damage.

All of this is due to having a number of ways to gain power over large scales. All of these benefits are due directly to the numerical tweaking assigned over the last 7 years of development. We've already covered all of this several times now.

08/23/2018 06:55 PMPosted by DoomBringer
To the point of making nearly everything else irrelevant?


Of course not. And luckily enough that isn't the case. There are still plenty of fun reasons to play in lower difficulties. Higher difficulties haven't invalidated any of those reasons. Players can and do play all of those non-endgame difficulties all the time. It is an undeniable fact. Again, we've been over all of this already.

08/23/2018 06:59 PMPosted by Cars
what if damage %s of sets were reduced to more reasonable levels


More circular logic. "What if the numbers were good instead of bad?"
08/23/2018 07:01 PMPosted by Mercury
08/23/2018 06:55 PMPosted by DoomBringer
One way opens up possibilities. The other way does absolutely nothing.


This isn't true. Augments, for example, allow many builds to play through and past T13 that wouldn't have been viable at lower power levels. Having a large distribution of power levels allows for new builds like speed builds and bounty builds and pushing builds. Raising power levels changes a number of statistical relationships, eg Outgoing versus Incoming damage.

All of this is due to having a number of ways to gain power over large scales. All of these benefits are due directly to the numerical tweaking assigned over the last 7 years of development. We've already covered all of this several times now.

08/23/2018 06:55 PMPosted by DoomBringer
To the point of making nearly everything else irrelevant?


Of course not. And luckily enough that isn't the case. There are still plenty of fun reasons to play in lower difficulties. Higher difficulties haven't invalidated any of those reasons. Players can and do play all of those non-endgame difficulties all the time. It is an undeniable fact. Again, we've been over all of this already.

08/23/2018 06:59 PMPosted by Cars
what if damage %s of sets were reduced to more reasonable levels


More circular logic. "What if the numbers were good instead of bad?"


I think half of your problem is that you can't see the forest through the trees. You're so ingrained and so devoted to the bigger and better numbers game that you refuse to acknowledge what it's done to the rest of the game and its content. I suspect the casual observer who takes a step back and examines what's happened to the game over the years will understand. But, unfortunately, some are practically married to the current system because it's all they know or want.

They tried to remedy the loot years back with the introduction of unique legendary properties and LoN to breathe life into the redundant itemization and make legendaries, not just sets, viable and interesting again. Damn near all of that has been undone by the constant power creep and we're right back at square one, everyone using cookie cutter sets. And if you don't want to use a cookie cutter set, have fun playing by yourself in one of the dozen empty torment difficulties with less loot.
08/23/2018 07:11 PMPosted by Cars
I think half of your problem is that you can't see the forest through the trees. You're so ingrained and so devoted to the bigger and better numbers game that you refuse to acknowledge what it's done to the rest of the game and its content.


All you have done is to repeat "Bad power creep is bad."
08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
So called power creep is called for because there have been changes made to the game in the last decade or so since its release.

D3 was released in May 2012. We're nowhere near 2022.
08/23/2018 10:39 PMPosted by Meteorblade
08/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Mercury
So called power creep is called for because there have been changes made to the game in the last decade or so since its release.

D3 was released in May 2012. We're nowhere near 2022.


Or so.

Besides, I bet they have a few more years left of complaining.
So called power creep is called for because there have been changes made to the game in the last decade or so since its release.

So 6.25 years is 10 years or so, i.e. being out by a third is okay?

Excellent. Next time your supermarket bill is $100 hand them $62.50. If they say that's not enough money just tell them you gave them $100 or so and see how you get on.
08/23/2018 10:51 PMPosted by Meteorblade
So 6.25 years is 10 yearsor so, i.e. being out by a third is okay?


Yes. 6.25 years is about 10 years. You could certainly make the case for rounding it that way. ie 6 > 5. Hard stuff to figure out!

But either way is completely irrelevant. The game is about a decade old. It's changed in this last decade or so. The difference in how you prefer to round approximations of time doesn't change that fact.

It's clearly not the crux of the argument at hand. How many posts are you going to write about supermarket bills and approximate periods of time? What are you going to equivocate next?

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