Diablo III WAS a giant !@#$-up

General Discussion
11/22/2018 10:19 PMPosted by Steve
So why is he bashing the devs for doing exactly what the players want


Because polishing a turd does not make it a diamond.
I admit I left after vanilla. Not because the game was a giant !@#$ up like most people mention but because the game failed to engage me.

It was a game so vastly different from D2 and D1 that I couldn't wrap my mind around it.

Instead of entering the story, progressing my character and killing diablo as my last act before the difficulty went up, I got a choice of 2847383 difficulty levels, a confusing and uninteresting story, and killing diablo did nothing really.

It just wasn't the same game. If anything the expansion added to the confusion. Eventually I realized that the game was 95% focused around end game and the all the stuff before it is essentially pointless.

That was disappointing but at the same time there are so many other things to do in the end game that neither diablo 1 or 2 could deliver.

You can do bounties to get craft mats, you can farm paragons in GRs, farm DBs in NRs, farm for cosmetics all over the game world, farm for goblins, do weekly challenge rifts, try your hand at the set dungeons, work on your seasonal character and perfect a new build every season. When you think about it, there is so much to do and so much variety.

It's like a giant sandbox diablo game. Personally I prefer this. I don't miss D2 one bit.
D3 was just a mess. Not even including error 37 madness .
the game was sooo empty when it come out, there was you're char, items, and monsters, that was literally it, and tbh its still not that great, when the game sell's over 30m copy's and the expansion sold around 3m, that is really bad that is around 10% of people that brought d3 brought the expansion...
11/23/2018 06:31 AMPosted by ETpagh
a confusing and uninteresting story, and killing diablo did nothing really.

THIS
11/22/2018 11:00 PMPosted by Saidosha
There's also a point where Inferno ceased to exist, so you can't exactly use that as a damning demographic since people could have easily came back when some inking of sanity came back to difficulty with the further temporary Monster Power system.

People can be all, "Well, D3 only sold 30+ million copies because of D2!" until they're blue in the face, but that runs under the assumption that every one of those people played D2 first. And I only bring up that number because it's a fantastically asinine glimpse into corporate expectation the article also brought up when the vast majority of video games are lucky to ever break 1m sales.

Anyway, vanilla did a lot wrong, and I'm not the slightest bit surprised if it did scare away players for various reasons. However, I remain unconvinced that some of the frequent talking points like Cain's death, the joke that was the pony level, or not being "dark" enough are actually up there on the list. Things that relate to accessibility (drop rates, A2 Inferno wall, etc.) are where the real damage was done. Class balance and build diversity would likely follow after that. But in terms of behind the scenes stuff, staff shuffling rarely bodes well for any game during production, and D3 eventually saw multiple directors and who knows how much rotation from the grunts we really know nothing about. Chicken and egg about the relationship between consumer reaction, sure, but I'll remain of the mind that the corporate side sabotaged things in their own way. To again bring up the 30+ mil number, you don't move that many units and go on to have the luxury to say you don't have the money to fix things. That was their choice, further feeding into the DI mess.

So, I'll just close with saying an offline mode patch with mod support tools is the only real avenue left to win fans back over here, because it really doesn't seem like the same corporate wants to try to "fix" D3 themselves.


Just goes to show you don't know the fanbase of Diablo. You do not understand why the fanbase formed around D1 and D2, and you do not appreciate how many of us bought D3 because we wanted more of that. Literally millions of us. And it wasn't only things like the game being overly colorful/cartoony there was the issue of the core gameplay being overly streamlined. When all is said and done D3 is an arcade action game not an ARPG.
11/23/2018 06:31 AMPosted by ETpagh
It's like a giant sandbox diablo game. Personally I prefer this. I don't miss D2 one bit.


There are a few endgame things to do in D3 but they do not make it a sandbox. In fact the contrary. D3 is entirely a tightly scripted game where the devs tell you exactly what you can play and can't play.

Some of my best memories in D3 were the WOTB barb and CM wiz - not because they were acceptable (they were really broken) - but because they showed the creativity of the community and the theorycrafters in response to the terrible state of vanilla. That has never really recovered after the builds were nerfed (rightly so perhaps) and Blizz took it upon itself to dictate the endgame (unfortunately).
11/22/2018 09:18 PMPosted by rahl
Initial sales of D3 vanilla don't matter. Majority (?) of vanilla players left the game and apparently never returned

Vanilla sold 14 million over the first year. RoS sold merely 2.7 on release.
That's why the 2nd expansion was canceled.

I can't believe Schreier didn't make that connection. Instead, he writes about the confused employees... that spin the story, as if the cancelation happened prior to the release of RoS... and I highly doubt things happened likethat.

It was also laughable to read, how the D3 team believed, that they fixed D3 with RoS... it's the same garbage game. If anything, I liked Vanilla D3 1.07 better than RoS.
11/22/2018 09:18 PMPosted by rahl
This suggests for one that D4 cannot be left solely in the hands of the devs anymore. I am not in great sympathy with Acti or any form of mega-management, but obviously an AAA game does not only need to sell well, but also to establish a robust reputation and credibility in the minds of gamers. D3 failed in that respect.


This all depends on a variety of factors, sorry if I miss a few.

1.) The devs that Blizz hires, I do believe that if a different team of devs made this game with the same amount of freedom and time that Jay and Co. had could've came out way better than it did.

2.) How much freedom do those devs have for D4. It might be great to have a great team. But if they are hamstrung on what they can do. Then all of their best intentions will not be good enough.

3.) What pillars are set for D4 and who is sets them. If the pillars are strong like "embrace the darkness", might be a meme for Diablo if not already.

4.) Will it be a PC first game like the first three games. If not then you can forget it. All of the other three might be there but if if it mobile only then the franchise will be considered DOA (dead on arrival).

How D4 eventually turns out will tell us just how much they care for he Diablo franchise as well as how well the business execs understood how much of a screw up D3 was, even though RoS made it a better game. But still not the game it deserved to be since it carries the name Diablo.

Wouldn't it be strange if the business execs understand us better than the devs and CMs do. If only they would talk to us maybe that would make things better.
11/22/2018 09:18 PMPosted by rahl
Initial sales of D3 vanilla don't matter.

OK, let's take initial sales off the table. And what of the fact the Diablo III has been a critical and financial success on every platform on which it has been released? It was recently released for the Nintendo Switch, and gamers are loving it. Most typical comment: "Why do the trolls at the official forums say how terrible this game is? It's awesome!"

Sorry, but your "Diablo III was only a success because of Diablo II" hypothesis doesn't align with the data.
11/26/2018 01:28 PMPosted by MountainMan
11/22/2018 09:18 PMPosted by rahl
Initial sales of D3 vanilla don't matter.

OK, let's take initial sales off the table. And what of the fact the Diablo III has been a critical and financial success on every platform on which it has been released? It was recently released for the Nintendo Switch, and gamers are loving it. Most typical comment: "Why do the trolls at the official forums say how terrible this game is? It's awesome!"

Sorry, but your "Diablo III was only a success because of Diablo II" hypothesis doesn't align with the data.
They made money on D3. They sold 30 million copys only Overwatch sold more at 35 million. D3 was a failure on a game game design level. Blizzard were just not happy with the way the game turned out.
D3 went through a lot of changes and none for the better of the game in the end.

edit: RoS fixed a lot imo for what D3 was at the time, and it is what it is now.
11/22/2018 10:38 PMPosted by DeMasked
D3 release was indeed a large disappointment.

-Missing features that were shown in the gameplay video / pvp
-Real Money Auction House
-Legendary drops were extremely rare and usually sucked
-Difficulty wasn't balanced with Inferno being ridiculous (one shot hits, elite enrage timer)
-Deckard Cain's in game cinematic death by purple butterflies
-Story/Narration being super cheesy with bosses telling you what they were up to

Plenty of other issues as well. A lot of the developers who worked on Diablo 3 didn't have prior experience with ARPGs or the Diablo franchise.


Of all the things you have listed, Deckard Cain's death by butterflies has always been my number 1 show case of " Wtf was going on there"? With D3 haha. I have just never been able to picture game dev's brainstorming a cool compelling way to kill off a classic character and coming up with that. It is hard for me to accept that someone had that idea and other dev's jumped on board.
11/26/2018 03:22 PMPosted by Suedomsa
D3 went through a lot of changes and none for the better of the game in the end.

edit: RoS fixed a lot imo for what D3 was at the time, and it is what it is now.


Agreed. Vanilla kind of a mess, ROS definitely better and fixed a lot, still a lot of irreparable damage that I actually do believe the team that made ROS would have done better if they had of made it from scratch.
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OK, let's take initial sales off the table. And what of the fact the Diablo III has been a critical and financial success on every platform on which it has been released? It was recently released for the Nintendo Switch, and gamers are loving it. Most typical comment: "Why do the trolls at the official forums say how terrible this game is? It's awesome!"

Sorry, but your "Diablo III was only a success because of Diablo II" hypothesis doesn't align with the data.
They made money on D3. They sold 30 million copys only Overwatch sold more at 35 million. D3 was a failure on a game game design level. Blizzard were just not happy with the way the game turned out.

In what universe is 30-million copies sold a failure? I guarantee every developer in the industry wishes they could "fail" by releasing one of the best selling games ever.

By the way, that 30-million figure is two-years old when Diablo III was ranked the 10th best selling game of all time. Not 10th best selling PC game but 10th best selling game across all platforms!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/08/05/believe-it-or-not-diablo-3-is-now-the-10th-best-selling-video-game-of-all-time/#42380d012ab4

And that was two-years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if that number has gone up another couple million since then.

This is what you call a "failure". Right.
I personally really enjoyed Diablo 3 vanilla, prior to when they nerfed the difficulty level.

Running the highest difficulty level (at the time) with my somewhat undergeared wizard was one of the most fun experiences I've had in gaming. I had to fight for every inch with everything I had. A single hit from many mobs would spell my doom and bosses, while doable, were incredibly challenging. I still remember killing Azmodan a split second before my wizard succumbed to his toxic clouds.

I also loved the way Diablo 3 innovated on abilities and combat. Being able to create builds with a lot of different abilities was much more fun than attribute point allocations and just a few abilities used in many other ARPGs.

Not specific to vanilla but I also very much enjoyed how certain items could completely change your playstyle, keeping the game fresh after many hours of play.

I didn't care much for the auction house, but I understand why they created it.
11/26/2018 05:23 PMPosted by Malakai
I personally really enjoyed Diablo 3 vanilla, prior to when they nerfed the difficulty level.


Same. What they did was throwing Jay Wilson and Wyatt under the bus for nothing. For a game that scored them near billions of money.
Also I think Wyatt is tired of "crunch-time" he got on development, so he just went for the mobile and Jay was simply over-stressed from work place and constant bickering from trolls.

I like RoS, but because of reward gaps and multiplicative progress served as linear progress player simply hits the wall too early and after that you get a burn out effect from over playing. That shouldn't be about it, game has no self-sustaining merits and features.

By leaving some elements bleak or blurry about character development, it could cause player to spiral into an ever growing search. Creating best optimals, causes player to funnel for the best option out there and ignoring 70% of the content.
That doesn't only apply to the character development, but exploration as well. This design choice spills onto WoW as well sadly.

Since everything scales with your level, and quests simply marked on your mini-map, you have no reason to explore and witness the randomly generated worlds. There could be many things you can do to allure player with loot to explore the realm they created, but it always come down to speedrunning and skipping the content at nigh light speed.
They heavily underestimated how popular the Diablo genre was. It's like none of them ever really played it.

They added a shared stash, which everyone had been asking for, but technically gave mountains less storage space than D2 offered. They didn't seem to notice that every main account had at least three different mule accounts.

Hard to try out many different combinations for the best outcome if you can't even store those combinations that you find.

They added a lifetime storage for characters, which is odd given the implementation of seasons makes that totally useless because you're deleting them as fast as you make them.

Maybe that's the best they could do given the options available to them. It's not a terrible game. It's just not a Diablo game.
Leveling 1-60 multiple characters wasn't fun when only 2 of 5 got leg drops. Quite a few Quality of Life requested features were never implemented; so players looked elsewhere (Hud). D3 players threatened again and again with account ban if used Dark DirectX filter, used mouse aid, or abused game mechanics. Blizzard didn't quickly acknowledge game bugs and tech issues. Unlike GGG with POE, Blizzard took months to fix. Wizard black hole bug still not fixed after years. Blizzard hasn't implemented auto-close with old threads (6months plus); so states not to necro. Person asks for help, but thread just closed with comment only to not necro. Diablo3 forums lacks a well written game performance guide compared to that of OverWatch (new forum layout).
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/t/guide-maximizing-system-performance-for-overwatch-pc/30

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Just a passing thought, but what if Diablo3 2012 had been released with
-- substantially increased item drop rate
-- auction house items and in-game traded items account bound upon first trade.

Would of lowered auction house / third party site pricing and virtually eliminated auction house botting. Would of reduced game botting profits. Would of eliminated flipping between gold AH and RMAH. It should be noted that WoW still has auction house.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Auction_House
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Guide_to_making_money
11/26/2018 03:57 PMPosted by Garret99
Of all the things you have listed, Deckard Cain's death by butterflies has always been my number 1 show case of " Wtf was going on there"? With D3 haha. I have just never been able to picture game dev's brainstorming a cool compelling way to kill off a classic character and coming up with that. It is hard for me to accept that someone had that idea and other dev's jumped on board.


In real magic things are not always what they appear to be. What is harmless to others is deadly for others. That final attack along with the magic that was being used to hold him could've been part of a secret ritual that was designed to kill a horadrim. Leah gave me that conclusion with the way she reacted to that attack.

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