#MakeDiabloRPGAgain - How fix Diablo

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11/25/2018 07:32 AMPosted by Steve
Hate to break it to you Diablo isn't a mmorg


Then why is it trying to hard to play like one with its combat? The OP brings up valid points about skill rotations and dumbed down itemization being shoehorned into the Diablo franchise for D3. Yes, in D2 I had to wait until my sorc was in her 50s before frozen orb or meteor was maxed out, but I could make sorc that capped out nova or fireball by level 30 and then focus on synergies. D2 had options, and despite the lack of a full skill rotation, offered a greater variety of gameplay at the endgame because builds focused on 1 or 2 skills and all buffs were pre-buffs that lasted 3-5 minutes, generally. If you got sick of killing things with forzen orb, you could take a different sorc that killed things with nova, if you got sick of that, you could take a different sorc that killed things with fireball, etc. Multiply that theme across all the D2 classes and endgame farming is very wide open to a variety of viable gameplay.

In D3, the patch notes tell you what build you'll be using before you've even rolled a fresh character for the season. The season means nothing because there is no in game economy being reset alongside you, so the appeal for seasons needs to artificially created with extra stash tabs or seasonal buffs, and the gameplay never changes from the roulette wheel of which set is now in the lead after every multiplier has been doubled or tripled. All this for the sake of grinding one bit of content, that boils down to a time trial, and despite that this time trial has a theoretical infinite amount of levels, every level is identical in all but the amount of zeros at the end of each number. On top of that, the multilayered RNG on itemization has created the cancer of identical item builds having vast power gaps based on what amounts to luck. Record one build with decent enough itemization to clear gr70 in 15 minutes and compare the footage to the same build with decent enough itemization to clear gr90 in 15 minutes, then attempt to distinguish which run is for which gr level. Without having numbers turned on, it's impossible to tell despite that these two clears are 20 gr levels apart. The gameplay never changes regardless of progress, and therefore the progress is meaningless. D3 has accomplished being an ARPG that doesn't let players feel more powerful as they progress, and infinitely scaling grs are absolutely the cause of it. It's a colossal design failure.
Look to Dragon's Dogma then. Was a very action based game, immolation damage yourself, Great Sacrifice requires you to sacrifice an companion, most sorcerer skills have casting time, etc, etc, etc; AND no cooldown.

There are situations where the skill A is better and situations where the B is better.

What does that have to do with cooldowns? You have options, and that's great, but how does having these options mean cooldowns aren't a perfectly adequate way to build depth? Again, you're just saying you don't like cooldowns because you don't like cooldowns. Try harder.

The difference is that when i spended all of my mana, i choose to spend all of my power. I an not being artificially limited by a mechanic who makes no sense.

You're being artificially limited by running out of resources by an arbitrary amount of them. See how two can play this ridiculous non-argument game of yours? You're still failing spectacularly at making an actual argument past you not liking it. Hell, one can even make perfect sense out of a cooldown for a demanding skill from a lore perspective.

Think about it this way: remember those oldschool RPGs you keep bringing up all the freaking time since months? Remember how you have limited uses for certain spells before having to sleep and replenish them? Cooldowns are a lite version of that exact same mechanic, so to speak, adapted for the inherently hectic moment to moment combat of an ARPG. In order to prevent spamming powerful spells, you're "artificially" limited, compelling you to build rotations to develop a mechanically cohesive attack pattern. You don't have to like it, but to assume that's a reason to say "it doesn't make sense!" is just stupid as hell.

As someone allegedly priding himself so damn much about things "making sense" and seeking some mechanical depth, I'm actually surprised you haven't even thought about this, but then again, it just seems your irrationally opinionated attitude keeps getting the best of you.
11/29/2018 06:07 PMPosted by Tohki
The season means nothing because there is no in game economy being reset alongside you, so the appeal for seasons needs to artificially created with extra stash tabs or seasonal buffs, and the gameplay never changes from the roulette wheel of which set is now in the lead after every multiplier has been doubled or tripled.


What about ladder only rune words that are very useful rune words, and IIRC ladder only uniques. So the only big difference in D2's ladders is just the economy. I don't think so, because if it is you better check the game again before you make such a statement. There should be a difference between playing in seasons and non seasons.

Also all sets weren't buffed. What has been done is that the under performing sets. Also the damage buff on the sets are not as bad as it might look. Every 4.5 GR levels the monsters health doubles. So every time you double your damage you go up 4.5 GR levels. Take another look at the damage buffs again and you see that it will translate into x amount of GR levels that will put those sets in line with the strongest sets that wasn't buffed.
11/29/2018 04:47 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Clueso, since you mentioned FPS, what if fallout new vegas instead of having an expensive an heavy(for hardcore mode) .50 BMG explosive, decided to limit how much explosive ammo you can trow by cooldown. It will not be awful? Will not reduce the player freedom and immersion???


What’s your point? That if something is done badly, it will be less enjoyable?

So what? You can say that about literally any tool that’s used to balance a game. Not just cooldowns.

For instance, let’s take that same situation and make that ammo cheap as !@#$ instead of expensive and make it so you don’t have to reload. Wouldn’t that break your immersion just as much?

Or on Dragon's Dogma, if the skill that i mentioned(Sacrificial Bolt) instead of dealing massive amount of damage but having an insane long casting time and requiring an pawn sacrifice, have an cooldown. It will not be worst?


What if we changed it so it still had an insane casting time but dealt very little damage? Wouldn’t that suck as well?

You can screw things up without cooldowns.

On Diablo 2, as a necro i use bone spear against line, bone spirit against single target, clay golem against bosses, fire golem to lure enemies, revived mobs to be meatshields, tons of different curses and none of this skills have cooldown. I don't spam the same skill.


But a lot of builds do spam the same skill. The skill trees are actually built that way in D2. Several categories in the early tree give bonuses to other abilities, so you’re kind of screwing yourself over if you DON’T use them. Further, there are builds like the Frozen Orb Sorceress.. I’ll give you 1 guess as to what skill she uses 95-99% of the time.

Your example of meteor, it can be easily fixed if the meteor deals initially physical damage then fire damage over time in 10 seconds(or any other suggestion that i made), that way, will be more worth in therms of DPS to switch to a fireball.

You are encouraging the player to switch to another skill, not forcing him.


Which has the same effect as a cooldown, so practically what have you changed? Nothing.

11/29/2018 08:02 AMPosted by Orrion
Hell, you love Grim Dawn too. Guess what builds in that game do? They break the resource system.


Grim Dawn is a average game IMO without mods and a good game with mods.


That’s beside the damn point, especially since the vast majority of mods do nothing to the resource system.

At least TRY to address the actual point, okay?
11/23/2018 01:59 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Why the downvotes?


I detest that grease bag Trump and that garbage slogan, that you twisted to fit Diablo. You think Blizzard has screwed people. President hump is king of scumbags.

Also people down vote just because they can or they don't like something and just don't give a reason why. Even though you have good ideas (like addressing weapon dps as being king, I imagine you meant there should be a more complex system to increase your characters skills.

Also getting even the same skills at the same level is awful.


I agree with that, there are many things I now understand, with regards to the D2 community ( I never played) since I started playing Grim Dawn.

So ya you have some good ideas, but I hate that man with all my being.

Also don't worry about the down votes, I am racking up quite a few myself, trying to grow my collection. Being liked is overrated. I am not even trolling, it just comes naturally LOL.
11/29/2018 04:47 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Clueso, since you mentioned FPS, what if fallout new vegas instead of having an expensive an heavy(for hardcore mode) .50 BMG explosive, decided to limit how much explosive ammo you can trow by cooldown. It will not be awful? Will not reduce the player freedom and immersion???

I did not play Fallout, so I can't comment on that.
But even it did break immersion a bit, there is certainly a not insignificantly large amount of players who wouldn't have a problem with that... sure, others like you would, but not everyone, maybe even not the majority.

11/29/2018 04:47 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
On Diablo 2, as a necro i use bone spear against line, bone spirit against single target, clay golem against bosses, fire golem to lure enemies, revived mobs to be meatshields, tons of different curses and none of this skills have cooldown. I don't spam the same skill.

As if spam the same skill is a problem but spam the same rotation is not...

Well, if that is what you want, it sounds terribly boring to be honest and also proves my point. If you don't get what I mean with that, watch the outro of this guy's Diablo 2 videos:
https://youtu.be/p8LcfsLeSqE?t=636

In such a case I would love to be "forced" into a rotation, just to have some sort of variation...

11/29/2018 04:47 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Your example of meteor, it can be easily fixed if the meteor deals initially physical damage then fire damage over time in 10 seconds(or any other suggestion that i made), that way, will be more worth in therms of DPS to switch to a fireball.

But how is that not immersion-breaking?
Shouldn't the fire stack? And if so, shouldn't fireball cause burn damage over time as well? This stuff breaks immersion all the time, but you do not seem to have a problem with that...

11/29/2018 04:47 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
You are encouraging the player to switch to another skill, not forcing him.

If you do not want to be forced into using another skill by triggering a cooldown with a certain skill, then use another skill that doesn't have a cooldown, but instead uses one of your suggested mechanics.

As I said a few posts ago: I am not against implementing some of your suggested mechanics. I would not have a problem with some skills using some of your mechanics, and others use cooldowns in the same game. You on the other hand do not want to have any cooldowns at all. You want to force people to not have cooldowns, even if they would be okay with that. You are just being way to dogmatic about that and it makes it come across like you want to impose your ideas on others, which is the issue I have with this...

11/29/2018 04:47 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
11/29/2018 11:44 AMPosted by clueso
At a base level, skills in D3 are somewhat balanced (with a few exceptions), it is just that through legendaries and sets, ultimates become so overly powerful.


Well, considering that every skill is a %WD on D3, of course they are easy to be balanced. Imagine if D2 have only barbarian class and the max skill level is 1... Of course will be much more balanced than the current D2, but will be a better game?

I was not defending the lack of progression that D3's skill system has, I was just trying to illustrate that ultimates at their base level in D3 do not make elites as trivial as the poster that I was responding to claimed.

I very much would prefer that ~50% of the damage total of a skill would come from the skill otself, while the other ~50% come from the weapon. A bit like this:
https://imgur.com/mfd7fzi
https://imgur.com/6ZTR6Fp
https://imgur.com/t58K6xK


And I would very much like that you could level up skills. My personal favorite skill system is the one from Last Epoch, which instead of Skill Trees give you Skill Specific Skill Trees, which basically means that every skill has its own skill tree and that you gain points for every skill indicually. It also combines the best of D2's skill tree and D3's rune system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOa1c4F0s5o&t=190s

I made a sketch of how this system could look like with a few D3 skills:
https://imgur.com/KBx5akF
https://imgur.com/XWZE2xi
https://imgur.com/O5WtH5R


Now, this is just a sketch and the skill specific talents also could be ordered in a different way than a circle to represent more of an old school skill tree, but the way it works would be the same.
Oh, and by the way, just as a side note:
A new version for the Diablo 2 mod Median XL released an announcement trailer just today a few hours ago:
https://youtu.be/tmPdJCLd_Z8

This new version of the mod does not just add new skills or so, but it also gives the game a completely new engine, which also allows the game to have individual cooldowns as mentioned in the trailer.

Median XL is by far the most popular Diablo 2 mod and with this newly created engine, the modders could have done everything they wanted, including to implement things like the mechanics you mentioned, but they didn't and instead gave skills individual cooldowns.

So how does it come that the most popular mod for D2 does things like this and the vast majority of people - which are all hardcore Diablo 2 enthusiasts - do not have a problem with that?
For instance, let’s take that same situation and make that ammo cheap as !@#$ instead of expensive and make it so you don’t have to reload. Wouldn’t that break your immersion just as much?


Will. But developers of Fallout New Vegas did an amazing job balancing the game without mechanics who makes no sense like cooldown.

Which has the same effect as a cooldown, so practically what have you changed? Nothing.


No, encouraging the player to switch and forcing then to switch are two different things also if meteor deals physical damage, it can be used against fire immune creatures.

So even if you have only 2 skills, you will have two "rotations" for two different situations instead of one optimal rotation for every encounter.

arge amount of players who wouldn't have a problem with that... sure, others like you would, but not everyone, maybe even not the majority.


In therms of isometric aRPG, Grim Dawn is the most popular. Only short cooldowns. In therms of action RPG(not isometric), Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma have the best combat.

Both limits very powerful skills like Soul Spear(DS) and sacrificial bolt(DD), not by cooldown, but by other mechanics(spell usages / rest on DS like most cRPG's and a pawn sacrifice on DD). There are even explosive arrows that can easily be obtained on hard mode and tenfold flurry + explosive arrow can be insane deadly...

So yes, is possible to have an amazing combat and no cooldown.

but you do not seem to have a problem with that...


Well, fireball generally causes explosion then the fire disappear. Also, my idea don't force the player into the same rotation every time.

You on the other hand do not want to have any cooldowns at all. You want to force people to not have cooldowns, even if they would be okay with that.


No, i an just making suggestion to make the combat better. I an not saying that if have cooldown, the game is automatically bad. Hell, Sacred 1/2 is an amazing aRPG and there are only cooldown on the game;

My point is that an game can be better without this mechanic. For example, on Age of Conan, the unique mmorpg that i liked. I really disliked that i can't be in Lich form 24/7 as a necromancer or that herald of xotli can't be permanently on demon form thanks to cooldown. I can stay as werewolf/werebear 24/7 as a druid on Diablo 2;

I really had fun on AoC, but endgame was mostly using the same rotation over and over again.
11/30/2018 07:34 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Both limits very powerful skills like Soul Spear(DS) and sacrificial bolt(DD), not by cooldown, but by other mechanics(spell usages / rest on DS like most cRPG's and a pawn sacrifice on DD). There are even explosive arrows that can easily be obtained on hard mode and tenfold flurry + explosive arrow can be insane deadly...


Resting to get charges back is no different than having a cooldown to get those charges back. It still takes time for the charges tor regenerate much like a cooldown does for skills in this game. If it were a cooldown to recover charges the cooldown would be around 2 hours or more.
11/30/2018 07:34 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
arge amount of players who wouldn't have a problem with that... sure, others like you would, but not everyone, maybe even not the majority.


In therms of isometric aRPG, Grim Dawn is the most popular. Only short cooldowns.

Many of the next gen ARPG's have cooldowns: Lost Ark, Wolcen, Last Epoch... all have cooldowns.

11/30/2018 07:34 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
So yes, is possible to have an amazing combat and no cooldown.

I was never saying or implying that it can't be. I was saying you are being way too dogmatic about NOT having cooldowns

11/30/2018 07:34 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
but you do not seem to have a problem with that...


Well, fireball generally causes explosion then the fire disappear.

My point is 'what is the logical reason why the fire from a fireball does not ignite enemies, but the fire from a meteor does? And if the fire from a fireball would cause enemies to ignite, shouldn't it stack, because otherwise it would make your fireball significantly weaker if the ignite damage would get refreshed over and over again. And if so, why should the fire from a fireball stack, but nor the fire from a meteor?

Saying that the fire from a fireball does disappear to fast to cause an ignite indicates that the fireball isn't even that strong...

Immersion breaking stuff everywhere...

11/30/2018 07:34 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Also, my idea don't force the player into the same rotation every time.

You are ignoring what I said previously.
If you do not want to be "forced into a rotation, choose skills that don't have cooldowns and instead utilize one of your suggested mechanics..

11/30/2018 07:34 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
You on the other hand do not want to have any cooldowns at all. You want to force people to not have cooldowns, even if they would be okay with that.


No, i an just making suggestion to make the combat better.

It is not better, it is just different.

Your whole argument was that cooldowns have to be avoided at any cost because they break immersion, so would it help you if a skill was on cooldown your charcters instead of saying things like "This ability needs to recharge" or "This ability is not ready", would say things like "I still need to recover my strength to do this (again)" or "I am too exhausted to do this yet (again)" or "I need to refocus more (to do this again)" or "The gods do not grant me the power to do this yet (again)" or "I do not have the focus/power to this yet (again)" or "I need to accumulate more Energy to use this (again)"...?

Or what if there would be lore behind cooldowns?

11/30/2018 07:34 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
My point is that an game can be better without this mechanic.

In your opinion, because in the end it all comes down to preference.
Abilities having cooldowns doesn't mean you are forced into a rotation.

Rotations are a part of mmos because the majority of abilities used in a rotation are there because they increase damage and the bosses can last several minutes.

Cooldowns and damage increase are not linked.

I have 3 cooldowns in Grim Dawn. Each is technically a damage ability. But because of the devotion skills there is a secondary effect tied to each one.

1 is a damage increase. 1 is a heal. 1 is debuff clearing. They are all situational and not part of a rotation.

It's completely disingenuous to assume that cooldown abilities have to be used in forced rotation. They are just as situational as spammable abilities.

And even on top of that, in Grim Dawn, adding a cooldown to an ability in some cases increases the chance of a Devotion ability (secondary effect). So there's even more to think about planning a character around situational effects.
11/29/2018 06:42 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Again, you're just saying you don't like cooldowns because you don't like cooldowns. Try harder.


No, i an saying that i don't like because >
1 - Most classic rpgs don't have
2 - Most modern good combat focused rpg's like Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma doesn't have either
3 - Forces the player into a rotation
4 - IS a cheap way to balance
5 - Removes immersion
(...)

I made a lot of points. My experience was just one of then.

11/29/2018 06:42 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Remember how you have limited uses for certain spells before having to sleep and replenish them? Cooldowns are a lite version of that exact same mechanic, so to speak, adapted for the inherently hectic moment to moment combat of an ARPG


No, are far different. If i wanna spend all of my power into dragon breath on M&M VIII i can do that, on a rpg with cooldown, i can't...

11/29/2018 07:20 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Every 4.5 GR levels the monsters health doubles. So every time you double your damage you go up 4.5 GR levels. Take another look at the damage buffs again and you see that it will translate into x amount of GR levels that will put those sets in line with the strongest sets that wasn't buffed.


Well, that is a problem of exponentially progression that i've talked many times.

Numbers should not grow exponentially and difficulty should't be just an "gear check" wall.

Wouldn’t that break your immersion just as much?


Will break the imersion and balance.

mmersion a bit, there is certainly a not insignificantly large amount of players who wouldn't have a problem with that... sure, others like you would, but not everyone, maybe even not the majority.


You are right that the majority of players will see no problem, but i believe that no cooldown will improve the experience for everyone.

In such a case I would love to be "forced" into a rotation, just to have some sort of variation...


How spam the same rotation can be more varied than spam the same skill?? Is the same thing with more micromanagement.

11/30/2018 11:33 PMPosted by clueso
In your opinion, because in the end it all comes down to preference.


No, not only my opinion. Imagine if skills on Dragon's Dogma and Dark Souls have cooldowns, do you really believe that both games will have a better combat? I avoid spamming an good spell like Crystal Soul Spear because it is a valuable resource, not because i trow one of then then need to wait for X seconds to trow another...

12/01/2018 06:24 AMPosted by GeminiEclips
And even on top of that, in Grim Dawn, adding a cooldown to an ability in some cases increases the chance of a Devotion ability (secondary effect). So there's even more to think about planning a character around situational effects.


Good that you mentioned Grim Dawn, because necromancer IMO was ruined in GD exactly by cooldown. I found myself walking in circles waiting for Raise Skeletons be finished over and over again in certain bosses. This while on Path of Exile i can just Desecrate + Raise Zombie

Don't get me wrong, Grim Dawn is a good game, probably one of the best aRPG's on the market, but nothing is perfect.
11/30/2018 09:44 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
11/30/2018 07:34 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Both limits very powerful skills like Soul Spear(DS) and sacrificial bolt(DD), not by cooldown, but by other mechanics(spell usages / rest on DS like most cRPG's and a pawn sacrifice on DD). There are even explosive arrows that can easily be obtained on hard mode and tenfold flurry + explosive arrow can be insane deadly...


Resting to get charges back is no different than having a cooldown to get those charges back. It still takes time for the charges tor regenerate much like a cooldown does for skills in this game. If it were a cooldown to recover charges the cooldown would be around 2 hours or more.


You have to rest to regenerate health in D&D, as well.

It's nothing like a cooldown, on the contrary:

A sorcerer can cast all his 9th level spells, the best spells, all in sequence, before falling back on level 8 spells, then level 7...

Cooldowns would've been if he had to wait 9 rounds to cast another level 9 spell.

---

There's flavorful ways to replace cooldowns and maintain balance:

An attack is easy to dodge:
Flexible and mobile enemies avoid the attack, unless debuffed.

The attack has weaknesses:
Armor reduces the damage dealt twice over.

The spell takes long to actually cast:
Before hurling the spell, the spellcaster has to spend 2 seconds casting it.

The spell takes a short while to recover from:
After hurling the spell, the spellcaster has to spend 2 seconds recovering, unable to do anything but move and use basic items.

Channelling skills: You have to dedicate your time to upholding the spell.
One thing that diablo never did is having a channelled summoning spell.
Like a sorceress' Blizzard spell, except it follows your cursor for as long as you use the spell, and 2 seconds after.

Charging skills: You have to charge up a skill before you can use it; 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds -- or even 5 seconds -- and may have to spend it within a limited amount of time to not lose the charge.

High resource cost, with a balanced resource regeneration system:
You can't spam one powerful skill 24/7 without extreme dedication and sacrifice -- and each monster having strengths and weaknesses, you're not going to be effective versus all monsters and bosses with said skill.

Debuffs:
After casting a powerful spell that drains the very life essence from his enemies, the necromancer's own life is tapped for a short while; Costs life to cast.

After casting a powerful spell, the mana spent casting the spell regenerates at half / one quarter / one tenth of the normal speed.

...

These options are fundamentally different from cooldowns, because they're acceptable replacements for cooldowns that doesn't leave a sour taste in a roleplayer's mouth.

---

But monsters having strengths and weaknesses is paramount, as well.

Armored monsters that are resistant to physical.
Shielded monsters that are resistant to area of effect blasts and projectiles.
Agile monsters that are resistant to projectile and slow melee attacks.

Fast monsters that avoid melee.

Ghosts that are resistant to physical while being a potent threat to armored characters.

Large monsters that deal lots of damage.

Piercing attacks: Sacrificing raw damage for armor-piercing.

...

And then, obscure uber-bosses can have high resistances to everything but one niche-weakness.

Immunities were a mistake, but monsters being 50%/75%/85%/95% resistant to some damage types, written on their typing, within a balanced RPG-ruleset is fine.
@Frostraven, amazing post. I only disagree about immunties. Immunities exists for a very long time on rpg's. The problem is the way that D2 implemented it, killing an fire elemental with a fire spell or making an skeleton to bleed makes no sense. But on D2, on Hell see mobs with 2 immunities are not uncommon and you see birds immune to lighting.

Not mention, that an fire sorceress can only deal fire damage. Druid's Molten Boulder deals physical + fire damage, but an supersonic meteor deals only fire damage on D2. This makes no sense.

If every class have dual damaging capabilities on the same skill line/tree like Druid(wind druid can deal physical(tornado) and cold(hurricane) on the same line or fire + physical on the same skill and immune mobs aren't that common, i an sure that everyone will enjoy much more D2.

To mention an modern combat focused game, Dragon's Dogma have monsters who are immune, but since you are not limited to one element in some builds and they are not common(aka phantasms are immune to physical damage but you can do physical damage against almost every other mob), nobody complains.
11/29/2018 06:42 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Again, you're just saying you don't like cooldowns because you don't like cooldowns. Try harder.


No, i an saying that i don't like because >
1 - Most classic rpgs don't have
2 - Most modern good combat focused rpg's like Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma doesn't have either
3 - Forces the player into a rotation
4 - IS a cheap way to balance
5 - Removes immersion
(...)


1. Most classic RPGs don't have a lot of things.
2. Ironically, D3's combat system is one of the things that has received high praise over the years. Also, neither Dark Soules or Dogma are isometric ARPGs.
3. And? Rotations are often more interesting than spamming buttons, especially if they're priority rotations.
4. Opinion.
5. Opinion.

11/29/2018 06:42 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Remember how you have limited uses for certain spells before having to sleep and replenish them? Cooldowns are a lite version of that exact same mechanic, so to speak, adapted for the inherently hectic moment to moment combat of an ARPG


No, are far different. If i wanna spend all of my power into dragon breath on M&M VIII i can do that, on a rpg with cooldown, i can't...


So what? Why is being able to spend all your power into dragon breath a good thing?

immersion a bit, there is certainly a not insignificantly large amount of players who wouldn't have a problem with that... sure, others like you would, but not everyone, maybe even not the majority.


You are right that the majority of players will see no problem, but i believe that no cooldown will improve the experience for everyone.


Well, you're wrong. The presence or absence of a single mechanic doesn't improve the experience for everyone. This is because games are comprised of many mechanics, and it's how they all work together that matters. There are enough games that have used cooldown mechanics and been successful that dismissing them out of hand due a personal bias makes you look like an idiot, as does examining mechanics in a vacuum.

In such a case I would love to be "forced" into a rotation, just to have some sort of variation...


How spam the same rotation can be more varied than spam the same skill?? Is the same thing with more micromanagement.


Because one of those things is engaging and one of them isn't. Rotations - especially priority rotations - are more interesting and varied than spamming a few skills.

Further, cooldowns are not the only way to make rotations. You can have things like situational abilities, buffs and debuffs, processing abilities, and chain skills.

11/30/2018 11:33 PMPosted by clueso
In your opinion, because in the end it all comes down to preference.


No, not only my opinion. Imagine if skills on Dragon's Dogma and Dark Souls have cooldowns, do you really believe that both games will have a better combat? I avoid spamming an good spell like Crystal Soul Spear because it is a valuable resource, not because i trow one of then then need to wait for X seconds to trow another...


Who cares? They weren't designed with cooldowns in mind, and that's fine. But it's silly of you to claim that a game can't have good combat simply because of cooldowns.

12/01/2018 06:24 AMPosted by GeminiEclips
And even on top of that, in Grim Dawn, adding a cooldown to an ability in some cases increases the chance of a Devotion ability (secondary effect). So there's even more to think about planning a character around situational effects.


Good that you mentioned Grim Dawn, because necromancer IMO was ruined in GD exactly by cooldown. I found myself walking in circles waiting for Raise Skeletons be finished over and over again in certain bosses. This while on Path of Exile i can just Desecrate + Raise Zombie


Well, you could not be stupid and use more than 1 ability. Raise Skeletons isn't a skill that's meant to raise you an army. It's meant to give you a couple of pets. A pet-centric Necromancer in GD would likely multiclass to Shaman, so you'll have Raise Skeletons, Blight Fiend (which gives you the option of getting more Fiends), Briarthorn and Primal Spirit, or to the Occultist so you can have Raise Skeletons, Blight Fiend, Familiar, and Hellhound. Plus you'll have other abilities aside from those.

Simply put.. if you're standing around waiting on Raise Skeletons and having them do literally everything for you, you're doing it wrong.
12/02/2018 09:20 AMPosted by Frostraven
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Resting to get charges back is no different than having a cooldown to get those charges back. It still takes time for the charges tor regenerate much like a cooldown does for skills in this game. If it were a cooldown to recover charges the cooldown would be around 2 hours or more.


You have to rest to regenerate health in D&D, as well.

It's nothing like a cooldown, on the contrary:

A sorcerer can cast all his 9th level spells, the best spells, all in sequence, before falling back on level 8 spells, then level 7...

Cooldowns would've been if he had to wait 9 rounds to cast another level 9 spell.


Is your argument that it's better to have more ways for players to be idiots? 'Cause there's very few situations I can think of in D&D where a class with spells wants to just go nuts and blow his best spells in order of spell level.
1. Most classic RPGs don't have a lot of things.
2. Ironically, D3's combat system is one of the things that has received high praise over the years. Also, neither Dark Soules or Dogma are isometric ARPGs.
3. And? Rotations are often more interesting than spamming buttons, especially if they're priority rotations.
4. Opinion.
5. Opinion.


1 - Don't have bad things either.
2 - Cooldown was criticized on D3. A lot of people complained that D3 fells much more a generic mmo than a successor of D2.
3 - No, are just spamming the same thing but with a boring micromanagement.
4 - Not my opinion, is much easier to balance by artificially limiting than by a interesting way.
5 - Not my opinion, more mechanics who doesn't make sense = less immersion.

Why is being able to spend all your power into dragon breath a good thing?


Don't take my freedom to choose what to do.

The presence or absence of a single mechanic doesn't improve the experience for everyone. This is because games are comprised of many mechanics, and it's how they all work together that matters. There are enough games that have used cooldown mechanics and been successful that dismissing them out of hand due a personal bias makes you look like an idiot, as does examining mechanics in a vacuum.


Any game who have cooldown can be better without it.

Look to Dragon Age Origins, i loved the game, but cooldown really hurts the fantasy of being an frost mage for eg since most frost spells have very long cooldowns. Some times i an facing mobs who are weak to cold, just by an arbitrary limitation, i need to use less optimal spells to deal with then. This is silly.

Same with shapeshift. On Diablo 2 i can be werewolf/werebear for 24/7. Imagine if i can only be in werebear/werewolf form for X seconds each Y minutes. This will really kill the fantasy of a shapeshifter.

are more interesting and varied than spamming a few skills.


No, same mindless think with a boring micromanagement.

They weren't designed with cooldowns in mind, and that's fine. But it's silly of you to claim that a game can't have good combat simply because of cooldowns.


No, my point is that if they adds cooldowns to the game, the combat will be worse.

On Dragon's Dogma, i can spam Tenfold Flurry + blast arrow as longs i have stamina do maintain it and money to pay for a lot of blast arrow(note that a single explosive arrow costs more than 100 poison arrows)

12/02/2018 04:10 PMPosted by Orrion
Well, you could not be stupid and use more than 1 ability. Raise Skeletons isn't a skill that's meant to raise you an army. It's meant to give you a couple of pets. A pet-centric Necromancer in GD would likely multiclass to Shaman, so you'll have Raise Skeletons, Blight Fiend (which gives you the option of getting more Fiends), Briarthorn and Primal Spirit, or to the Occultist so you can have Raise Skeletons, Blight Fiend, Familiar, and Hellhound. Plus you'll have other abilities aside from those.


So a necromancer can't fulfill the fantasy of raising an army of undead, should use pets of other classes... See how cooldown killed an typical fantasy that people expect to be able to play in a aRPG?

----------------------

Other problem that i din't talked yet is that instead of focusing on the action, with cooldowns i an constantly watching my bar to see what skills i can use. It really takes out the focus from the action, in a aRPG...
mmersion a bit, there is certainly a not insignificantly large amount of players who wouldn't have a problem with that... sure, others like you would, but not everyone, maybe even not the majority.


You are right that the majority of players will see no problem, but i believe that no cooldown will improve the experience for everyone.

And I think not being dogmatic about not having cooldowns at all would also beneficial.

In such a case I would love to be "forced" into a rotation, just to have some sort of variation...


How spam the same rotation can be more varied than spam the same skill?? Is the same thing with more micromanagement.

Quite different.
With what you are suggesting I would hold down one mouse button, with cooldowns, I could regularly press several buttons.

12/02/2018 05:12 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
more mechanics who doesn't make sense = less immersion

And what if there is a lore reason for cooldowns?

In PoE you can socket skills in your items and tons of people think PoE is the best ARPG out there, although some could say that getting skills from items breaks the immersion, but since there is a lore reason behind it, people don't care...

12/02/2018 05:12 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Why is being able to spend all your power into dragon breath a good thing?


Don't take my freedom to choose what to do.

Same can be said about when you run out of Mana. You suddenly are no longer free to choose to cast fireball or other spells etc.

12/02/2018 05:12 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Any game who have cooldown can be better without it.

Again, in your opinion.

12/02/2018 05:12 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
are more interesting and varied than spamming a few skills.


No, same mindless think with a boring micromanagement.

Encounter Enemy X = use Skill A
Encounter Enemy Y = use Skill B
...

How is this any less mindless?

12/02/2018 05:12 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
No, my point is that if they adds cooldowns to the game, the combat will be worse.

How would you balance a skills like Rain of Vengeance?
Because if there wouldn't be a cooldown it would leave the options of...
  • a fatigue state (which is terrible in an action RPG) where you cant do anything and it would be more fun to do other things in the meantime
  • high resource costs, which in this case I would say is also worse, because if I can shoot a few Multishots, then RoV and then a few more MS's is much more interesting than just RoV, recovering your resource and then RoV again, repeat.
  • some enemies for some reasons being more resistant to RoV than others and vice versa, but that would lead to just spamming RoV against certain enemies and not using other skills (boring) to only use other skills against other enemies (also boring). You could say that it makes you think, but I already addressed that.
  • and a few other option, but all of them would lead to the combat become slower because you have to be debuffed in one way or another.
  • So, no, I don't think that removing cooldowns leads to better combat by default.
    I think it depends on how cool down is applied and it’s purpose. On the one hand if applied correctly it could add depth and strategy to a build and possibly teamwork. On the other hand it can also be the cheap and lazy method of balance. I do think that large cool downs are typically an indication of a failure in resource design/balance.
    12/02/2018 06:22 PMPosted by clueso
    With what you are suggesting I would hold down one mouse button, with cooldowns, I could regularly press several buttons.


    So is the same mindless thing with more micromanagement.

    PS : You can't hold the mouse button and beat one of the games that i mentioned here.

    n PoE you can socket skills in your items and tons of people think PoE is the best ARPG out there,


    PoE can be better if skill gems are not linked towards gear. If there are passive skill tree, active skill tree(and places to put support gems), i really hate when i found an amazing item and can't use due the gem composition of the item.

    You suddenly are no longer free to choose to cast fireball or other spells etc.


    You ran out of power. If different.

    How is this any less mindless?


    You don't just adjust an single skill against an enemy. And use very powerful skills in the games that i've mentioned aren't consequence free...

    I managed to SOLO IWD1 as a Sorcerer/DD on max difficulty and can say. An strategy of spells can be very powerful against an enemy and useless against other.

    For example, against the starting enemies, charm was a must have spells, if they success on their save, i an dead, I had some problems with high magic resistent/magic immune enemies but found an strategy ( https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/68952/any-non-melee-ways-to-deal-with-spell-immune-creatures-in-iwd ) is not an strategy that will work well in other situations, i never used the same strategy against different type of bosses or hard encounters. Some times i paused the game for some minutes to think what i need to do.

    12/02/2018 06:22 PMPosted by clueso
    How would you balance a skills like Rain of Vengeance?


    The same way that rain of arrows works on Dragon's Dogma, Tenfold Flurry(Ranger), or Downpour Volley(2:28 here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmUJ9oTjdYs )

    In other words, i will make an skill who have an delay between fire the arrow and the rain of arrows and a not so large area, so will be good against stationary enemies but hard to use against moving enemies

    Rain of Arrows on PoE have no cooldown https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Rain_of_Arrows

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