D2 after playing D3 first

General Discussion
11/13/2018 10:38 AMPosted by Nyaria
11/12/2018 11:24 AMPosted by Olbat
...

I can understand, but

1) it's the point of a multi player game. encourage to play with other classes.
2) encourage to diverse your build
3) encourage to strengthen your mercenary
4) encourage to make rune words

In d3 is an online game only but without the need to interact with anyone


1) Okay, I can see the idea of the first one, to play other classes.. but I still don't agree I should have to make 3 sorceresses, and level them to max if I wanna try a different damage type. I've played most of the classes, getting me to play other classes wasn't the issue.

2) Literally every build you find for Diablo 2, is a cookie-cutterish build for maximizing one aspect of a class, so that you can clear the highest level of play. Diversifying is generally not seen as a good thing from what I've seen on builds, because it weakens what your good at, making late content impossible.

3) My mercenary isn't going to solo the rare pack of enemies that I'm unable to hurt. The mercenaries were suppose to be supportive, but they aren't gonna carry you through situations your build doesn't address. I still enjoy having Mercenaries, but I don't see them as fixing the issues I've run into playing D2

4) Maybe I don't know the exhaustive list of runewords. But, before we can even get into the idea that "Maybe a runeword can fix your issue" you have to know the rune word, have the correct runes for the runeword to work, and have a dropped item that you can slot the correct runes into to get said runeword. Not exactly a way to fix a stone wall you might run into.

Don't get me wrong, I do like Diablo 2, but none of these points actually really address the issues I had with the game.


Ah, I think you are a tad confused on how to build your character.

1) That is fair. Just a different philosophy, just an old element of RPG's which was about building relatively unique characters with different skillsets but I get what your saying there is no right or wrong opinion there.

2) You are incorrect. This is why damage immunities are screwing you. You really need to have somewhat diversified skills so if for example you are a frozen orb sorc and you run into cold immune... you should have fireball or meteor to clear the damage immunity type. I have made some pretty weird builds work with good enough gear.

3) Again, this is the point of why some people like having to make different characters and try different builds. It is fun to experiment with until you find the RIGHT one that doesn't leave you in situations that your build has no answer for.
11/11/2018 09:44 PMPosted by HadMatter
Sounds like your perfect rpg needs an "autoplay" feature and you have the makings for a mobile title.

/eyeroll
I still enjoy playing ARPGs myself (no autoplay or botting) but with the emphasis more on the "A" than on the "RPG" these days. D3 has been a good match for that.
I played D2 and D1 about at the same time. Although, I liked D1, I didn't think it was better than D2.

I started D2 in the year of 2000. I played it for many hours for the first few years. LOD expansion was awesome (although some people at the time, didn't like it). I went back to D2 in 2007 and played quite a lot of hours throughout that year, but new games took me away from the game. I had 5 maxed out hardcore characters, with pretty good gear. They all did specific runs really well, and specific things really well. I had a Necro, Amazon, Assassin, Druid, and Pally. It was fun going back to the game in 2007. I felt like the game had held up well by that point still (from 2000 from me). Game was super easy, with all the gear, and builds I had for my characters. It was obviously a lot more difficult starting from scratch in 2000.

Then I first played the D3 demo, and was majorly disappointed. It did not feel anything like Diablo 2. I remember telling my wife after driving away from my sisters house (after trying the demo), telling her, "I am not that hyped for the game" and "there is something missing from this experience". I thought of how the graphics were too colorful and washed out (like WOW), and how the atmosphere was not right.

Now, from 2012, I have a different perspective of D3. I just accept it for what it is. It's not D2, and it's an entirely different experiences. There are times when I am playing that it makes me think of D2 a little. But, too often the game becomes too colorful and the atmosphere is not good enough. I thought about the exclusion of the light radius feature in D3, and I think that is major mistake by Blizzard not to include that. Also, as I have come to grips with, no choices matter. You can pick any skill at any time, and it's not D2. But, I do like the different skill choices and runes you can pick. The different colors and animations (damage choices, and morph of different skills).

D3 does have some good things about it. I still see it as a "Diablo" experience. But, it's not the game D2 was at release or even years later. But, at this point in time, I would still rather play D3 in it's current state over D2. D2 is just too old now, I played it for too many hours. D3, because I've had so many other games to play, I haven't played it much. So there is still new stuff for me there. There is nothing new for me in D2, after all the hours I put in to it.

At release D2 easily the better game, D3 still has some good things about it, and I think people are too hard on the game (especially after D3's Reapers of Souls expansion). D3 no doubt was built for more the casual audience. I don't know if we will see anything compare to D2 ever again from Blizzard. I knew that, before D3 was released. So it did not surprise me.

POE is just too boring for me to play. I tried getting in to it, I respect the game, but it was far too boring to me. I would recommend the game however, for people who want a experience more similar to D2.

I really hope D4 sees a return to truly difficult gameplay--.

Diablo 3 campaign IS truly difficult when you are playing fresh seasonal character and adjust the difficulty level accordingly to your skills. Master too easy? Start the game with Torment 1 and so on.[ul][/ul]
11/13/2018 10:49 PMPosted by Ruined

I really hope D4 sees a return to truly difficult gameplay--.

Diablo 3 campaign IS truly difficult when you are playing fresh seasonal character and adjust the difficulty level accordingly to your skills. Master too easy? Start the game with Torment 1 and so on.[ul][/ul]


Yeah, I still think there are some good things about D3 that people don't acknowledge.
11/13/2018 10:49 PMPosted by Ruined

I really hope D4 sees a return to truly difficult gameplay--.

Diablo 3 campaign IS truly difficult when you are playing fresh seasonal character and adjust the difficulty level accordingly to your skills. Master too easy? Start the game with Torment 1 and so on.[ul][/ul]


Yea I can't even really explain a good reason why, but I hate the ability to scale difficulty based on a whim.

It's like.... A lot of times if I go on a long drive in RL. I actually enjoy it I don't mind driving at all especially if its scenic. But if you tell me I can drive home in 5 minutes instead of 30 I am going to drive home in 5. It just cheapens the game-play experience for me.
11/13/2018 10:49 PMPosted by Ruined
...
Diablo 3 campaign IS truly difficult when you are playing fresh seasonal character and adjust the difficulty level accordingly to your skills. Master too easy? Start the game with Torment 1 and so on.[ul][/ul]


Yea I can't even really explain a good reason why, but I hate the ability to scale difficulty based on a whim.

It's like.... A lot of times if I go on a long drive in RL. I actually enjoy it I don't mind driving at all especially if its scenic. But if you tell me I can drive home in 5 minutes instead of 30 I am going to drive home in 5. It just cheapens the game-play experience for me.
Well said but I prefer to challenge myself with the route. Curvy mountain road is sometimes funnier than a straight highway. Thus I like to crank D3 campaign difficulty up and play like it was year 2001 again.

I think playerbase skill level is so varied nowadays that they would shoot themselves in the leg if the difficulty wasn't adjustable. Back in 2000 it was ok to be in serious problems with Duriel, today there needs to be options for less experienced players.
11/13/2018 11:36 PMPosted by Garret99
Yea I can't even really explain a good reason why, but I hate the ability to scale difficulty based on a whim.


The ability to scale the difficulty cheapens the experience. It's somewhat reminiscent of /players 8 Your driving home idea can be easily extrapolated to various situations in real life, where sliding the difficulty cursor would get you through life easier.

11/14/2018 01:31 AMPosted by Ruined
Back in 2000 it was ok to be in serious problems with Duriel, today there needs to be options for less experienced players.


The best way for inexperienced players to grow is for them to smack their head against the wall long enough for the challenge to succumb under their perseverance. Compare the feeling of accomplishment between the two scenarios and the lessons learned. There is no way to tune the difficulty level of situations you will be in, why not learn that early on and adapt?
11/12/2018 02:40 PMPosted by Garret99
11/12/2018 02:12 PMPosted by StuRedman
To answer the original question:
I bought D2 before ROS came out because everybody hyped it so much.
Played D2 for a few days, wondering when and if it ever will get better.
Then fired up D3 for a quick break run - and never looked back.
I've been enjoying D3 from lvl 1 at the open beta weekend and still do.

D2 = poor and boring combat, annoying skill tree (irreversibly assigning points to skills you don't know if they suck or not).


I am not saying your opinion isn't fair as to which you like better...

But uhh... its SUPER easy to look up builds online like incredibly easy... There is literally no reason why you would need to irreversibly assign something with no knowledge on a game that's been out 18 years. Also just part of character customization.


I've long been of the mind that if you have to turn to outside resources to learn how to play your game, you've designed your game poorly. Unfortunately, the demographic that thrives on theorycrafting will probably disagree with that even though there is a difference between building a strong basic foundation of understanding and tweaking in nuance.

For the most part, I'd call D2 in Normal and Nightmare balanced. You'd find a few immunes in NM, but very rarely were they build shattering. The assertion another poster had that D2 was designed to be a multiplayer game and thus immunities were forged in that concept to encourage cooperation is something I'm going to disagree with. All of the Diablos have been built as a solo experience first, with the multiplayer an extra. This also means things like trading and PvP were never a focus, either, even if some went on to pervert them into their raison d'etre for the genre (Not unironically as a work around for poor drop rates or minimal endgame content). Without the core SP experience, nothing else would exist, and too often I feel that gets lost in the shuffle of what people think the game/genre is.

Anyway, in terms of balance, D2 never really taught the player about immunities or even inferred that monsters may have partial resistances themselves. You either did damage or you didn't, and at a glance, you may only think a mob has really high HP on your first go of a build and their bar is only trickling down. But the main problem they had was they never really taught players how to react in a beneficial way. The solutions were either be a multi-element build or hope you were lucky/rich enough to pierce them through gear/merc combos, and the latter is something you'd only really know possible if you relied on the outside information element or had a very kind friend willing to teach that knew themselves.

Of course, some of this I can simply attribute to the age of the game with lessons to be learned not yet learned from both itself or future games to come. You're going to have people that see things like tutorials as hand holding, and I won't disagree that some games do their own very poorly. However, I'm reminded of an old youtube vid that talks about intuitive game design and cites something like Mega Man X and how the "teach" you to wall scale in the opening stage without nagging windows/voices or making it a drawn out process. Games need more examples of that and less of the whole "A mistake you made as a noob will haunt you 30 hours in and force a restart!" that people seem to embrace with PoE and its "evolution" of D2's stat/skill system.

It's almost become some sort of weird rite of passage where those who've failed themselves want others to fail so they won't feel so bad about their past mistakes. And for a completely new player to any sort of game/genre, they may not know the correct terminology to google what they're really after and possibly walk off with bad advice if any at all. So, yeah, games being hard is fine, but that difficulty needs to be both fair and understandable. "I need to dodge that attack because it really hurts!" is far more intuitive than "The attack I spent the last 40 levels building up does nothing to these mobs!" Closing fun fact, D3 does have mobs with resistances and immunities, and I'm not just talking about the invulnerable minions affix that was rightfully removed long ago. Unfortunately, some either didn't notice or won't care because it's far easier to hate everything D3 has done than to understand some choices.
sorry cant play a game that looks like minecraft. we are in 2018, wake up.
11/14/2018 02:18 AMPosted by AnubisBlack
11/13/2018 11:36 PMPosted by Garret99
Yea I can't even really explain a good reason why, but I hate the ability to scale difficulty based on a whim.


The ability to scale the difficulty cheapens the experience. It's somewhat reminiscent of /players 8 Your driving home idea can be easily extrapolated to various situations in real life, where sliding the difficulty cursor would get you through life easier.

11/14/2018 01:31 AMPosted by Ruined
Back in 2000 it was ok to be in serious problems with Duriel, today there needs to be options for less experienced players.


The best way for inexperienced players to grow is for them to smack their head against the wall long enough for the challenge to succumb under their perseverance. Compare the feeling of accomplishment between the two scenarios and the lessons learned. There is no way to tune the difficulty level of situations you will be in, why not learn that early on and adapt?


Hate doubling, but this slipped in while I was working on my last.

Duriel was a poor encounter, plain and simple. At the time, you had many users running machines that resulted in them loading dead or close to it when entering his chamber. Blizz then went so far as to patch in that area pre-loading once you're close enough, but even then people would still suffer to the area transition.

And in D2, a zoning trap like this was only exacerbated by the fact we left our gear on a corpse. What's the lesson you learn here when recovering? Okay, he's going to get a cheap shot. You'll want a merc and hope maybe he goes for them first. If you're a pet class, even better. Otherwise, it's just zoning back in and hoping your corpse was actually where you remembered dying, and if you're not underleveled/undergeared, hope the 4 potions you have on your bar will be sufficient to finish him off unless you were really good at shift-clicking from your inventory in haste.

Still, no amount of gearing at level could overcome the lag monster if it chose to attack. There were a few other traps like that littered around the game, but Duriel was simply one everyone had to encounter and I wouldn't be surprised if he was the cause of the most deaths of characters in the game's history. And while players persevering through a challenge is one thing, I'll just continue to stress that a death needs to be educational with an honorable mention to death penalties not actually helping that process.
11/13/2018 10:38 AMPosted by Nyaria
<span class="truncated">...</span>

I can understand, but

1) it's the point of a multi player game. encourage to play with other classes.
2) encourage to diverse your build
3) encourage to strengthen your mercenary
4) encourage to make rune words

In d3 is an online game only but without the need to interact with anyone


1) Okay, I can see the idea of the first one, to play other classes.. but I still don't agree I should have to make 3 sorceresses, and level them to max if I wanna try a different damage type. I've played most of the classes, getting me to play other classes wasn't the issue.


Sorry I should have wrote specifically that d2 encourages you to play online with other specialised characters players or friends. Whereas D3 is an online only game, with only little benefit from playing with other players.
playing d1 ,d2 , d3

d1 really have a huge impact for is era for a online rpg

d2 stay my best game ever
1- i really love all the dungeon and maze the game have
2- the story and the feel of accomplishment
3- the pvp
4- all the grind and mf make sense for build and pvp
5- all build option and all stats flexibility
6- item data base
7- open act very huge open map for pvp and everything
8- The Horadric Cube and all crafting option rune mix
9- Charms
10- more mercenary and option
11- gore and dark gothic world and graphic , not some asian cartoony style
12- best sound track ever from Matt Uelmen pure evil :)
13- pk
this is why i love so much d2
11/14/2018 02:18 AMPosted by AnubisBlack


11/14/2018 01:31 AMPosted by Ruined
Back in 2000 it was ok to be in serious problems with Duriel, today there needs to be options for less experienced players.


The best way for inexperienced players to grow is for them to smack their head against the wall long enough for the challenge to succumb under their perseverance. Compare the feeling of accomplishment between the two scenarios and the lessons learned. There is no way to tune the difficulty level of situations you will be in, why not learn that early on and adapt?
Yeah that was the case with pre 95s kids but nowadays tough situations lead to rage quit which is bad business wise for Blizzard.
11/14/2018 02:52 AMPosted by Max
sorry cant play a game that looks like minecraft. we are in 2018, wake up.


Minecraft has close to 100 million monthly active users.

11/14/2018 02:55 AMPosted by Saidosha
Duriel was a poor encounter, plain and simple.


My reply was for encounters in general, not the Duriel one specifically. I am not aware of any of the transition problems you mention and those are definitely in the category bugs/connection issues. I've fought Duriel for years on end in every ladder reset and never experienced what you describe.

So even though it seems like you completely miss the point or we simply talk about different things, I agree that bugs are not the ideal candidate for a challenge, but they definitely are one. And while they should be addressed and removed as soon as possible, they simply teach you to think outside the box and figure out a way to circumvent an encounter stacked against you.

11/14/2018 02:55 AMPosted by Saidosha
a death needs to be educational with an honorable mention to death penalties not actually helping that process.


Death penalties are perfectly educational - do not die, there will be consequences. And again, your example is completely inappropriate for this discussion, yet it teaches you to be quicker. You either use a Valkyrie, Teleport, pet etc. or Energy Shield, Thawing Potions, etc. or learn to click extremely fast or whatever. If it's intended to be completed, there will be a way to do it. If not, it will be fixed or changed.
After Blizzcon and the Diablo announcement catastrophe, I went back to D2:LOD just for the fun of it, and I'm actually enjoying it after not playing it since 2008.
I built a #druid fury werewolf for PVE and it's just fun. Now I'm thinking about resurrecting my Windy for PVP.
Bottom line: for me, D2:LOD is still more fun than the same old season grind in D3.
I personally find it funny that people can recognize the quality of life improvements from D1 to D2 (running, show loot button, no spell books, etc...), but see further quality of life improvements from D2 to D3 as dumbing down. I actually like the removal of stat requirements on gear. Did anyone appreciate it in D2 when a unique or set item dropped, but you realize, after you've identified it, that you have not budgeted enough STR or DEX to actually use the item? I personally found that frustrating. As far as stat points on level-up? Anyone that actually made it to end-game in D2 knows that there was only 1 way to do it. Exactly enough STR and DEX you needed to equip your ideal set of gear (and possibly enough DEX to hit a given block% breakpoint), and everything else into VIT for a bigger health pool. Any other choice was "doing it wrong". All that removing this option did, was remove the ability to "do it wrong". How is that anything other than a QoL improvement? (40 years old, played D1, D2, and D3, in order, starting in 97).

At any rate, for the people who feel burned by D3, or if you started with D3, tried D2 and decided "wow, this is MUCH better!", there is a game that expanded on the concepts of D2, and doubled-down on them. It's called PoE, and it's free to play. You really should give it a shot if you haven't yet.
11/15/2018 07:49 AMPosted by nugs
I personally find it funny that people can recognize the quality of life improvements from D1 to D2 (running, show loot button, no spell books, etc...), but see further quality of life improvements from D2 to D3 as dumbing down. I actually like the removal of stat requirements on gear. Did anyone appreciate it in D2 when a unique or set item dropped, but you realize, after you've identified it, that you have not budgeted enough STR or DEX to actually use the item? I personally found that frustrating. As far as stat points on level-up? Anyone that actually made it to end-game in D2 knows that there was only 1 way to do it. Exactly enough STR and DEX you needed to equip your ideal set of gear (and possibly enough DEX to hit a given block% breakpoint), and everything else into VIT for a bigger health pool. Any other choice was "doing it wrong". All that removing this option did, was remove the ability to "do it wrong". How is that anything other than a QoL improvement? (40 years old, played D1, D2, and D3, in order, starting in 97).

At any rate, for the people who feel burned by D3, or if you started with D3, tried D2 and decided "wow, this is MUCH better!", there is a game that expanded on the concepts of D2, and doubled-down on them. It's called PoE, and it's free to play. You really should give it a shot if you haven't yet.


Removing gear restriction is not a quality of life improvement, it's making the game easier. Besides, having an easier game reduces the sense of accomplishment. Showing on the map where to go is not a QOL improvement neither.
QOL is auto pick up gold, one click to equip, adapting the screen's ratio etc
11/13/2018 10:14 PMPosted by Cobaltus
11/11/2018 09:44 PMPosted by HadMatter
Sounds like your perfect rpg needs an "autoplay" feature and you have the makings for a mobile title.

/eyeroll
I still enjoy playing ARPGs myself (no autoplay or botting) but with the emphasis more on the "A" than on the "RPG" these days. D3 has been a good match for that.


That's because D3 has no RPG elements in it.

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