UE STILL NOT COMPETITIVE

PTR Feedback 2.6.4
11/22/2018 10:40 PMPosted by Emay
11/22/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Jako
100% to 350% is going from 2x the damage to 4.5x

4.5x / 2x ==> 2.25x

Which is about 5 GRs only
Er no.

It's 350% *per point of discipline*. If your DH had 80 disc, the buff is changing your UE damage bonus from 8,000% to 28,000%, or 81x the damage to 281x the damage.
281 / 81 ==> 3.47x which is like 8 rift levels


In 2.6.1 my highest MS UE clear is 108. On PTR I cleared a 115 without too much trouble. 116 on the other hand, is giving me some trouble, missed it bt mere seconds a couple times.

Also, it'ss important to note that my 2.6.1 build uses Hexing Pants instead of Gunes. On PTR, however, I can both wear Hexing Pants and cube Gunes for more toughness thanks to the RORG buff. But RORG is only temporary. So I hope Blizzard is considering the fact that, long term, we won't have that extra Legendary Power, and balance accordingly.

Lastly, I'm inclined to agree with the suggestions to increase the damage to 500% and see how that fairs.
Bump.
Pls blizz this set needs some love.
After several days of PTR, UE falling farther behind. Attempted a few 116, but survivability needs a boost to be useable. Especially for HC. Damage buff also needs to be raised to be competitive.
11/23/2018 06:08 PMPosted by clueso
I would like to see skills alike Rapid Fire and Elemental Arrow added to the set.


Please, if only. I've been asking for this for so long waiting years and no matter what I do Ele Arrow with UE6 is worse than MS build. MS isn't even that good anymore.

Would also like to see more/better support items for Rapid Fire and Elemental Arrow, or at least a huge buff to the skill dmg alone.
One of the things that UE really needs is to ditch the part where it's based on current Discipline. It has needed to simply be based on max Discipline for a long time now. Getting weaker because you had to use a defensive more than once or twice shouldn't really be a thing in a damage oriented game (or endgame for that matter). It leads to a playstyle that isn't very enjoyable, much like Focus and Restraint do as well (oh what fun it is to first fire off a generator to proc the first half of F/R and then spam my spenders and repeat ad nauseum).

A big part of the competitive problem is how they play. I shouldn't have to be stuck with Danetta's set just to always do "full" damage. As long as the set loses power because you have to use your defensives (a lot on higher GRs), it'll never be competitive, period because the higher you go, the more you have to vault or use shadow power.
That's actually a good suggestion and should do the trick.
The thing is casuals, or devs that barely play DH, will never know and think the UE MS buffs is ~+10 GR. (when it is ~+5 at end game)

Because it is, pre-augmented. In my tests, there are two effects we should really be talking in isolation of each other -

1- effect of new changes on pre-augmented play
2- effect of new changes on post-augmented play

Pre-augmented:
With 11/13 ancients, zero augments, my best estimate of new UE MS power boost is ~+10 GR (vs. what I'd normally clear with same early season para and zero augments)

Was able to easily clear 101 using nothing but slightly less than 800 para and a non-optimal compass rose set vs. F/R + hellfire.
(reason being getting a good hellfire in limited 1 week PTR span is not realistic vs the near infinite supply of getting a GG pledge/compass)

Vs. what I historically easily hit ~91 at same early season para and equivalent gear, zero augments.

So mathwise, I agree on the ~+5 GR for UE MS with these new changes, but I hope the devs didnt assume pre-augmented performance is the same as post augmented. Because the new set buff really gives more bang for the buck at ~+10 for me at pre-aug vs. when fully augmented.
11/24/2018 07:44 AMPosted by TheTias
One of the things that UE really needs is to ditch the part where it's based on current Discipline. It has needed to simply be based on max Discipline for a long time now.


I disagree. There should be an incentive for players to manage their Discipline well. Likewise, gauging when or when not to use Preparation should matter.
11/24/2018 10:10 AMPosted by RedCell
11/24/2018 07:44 AMPosted by TheTias
One of the things that UE really needs is to ditch the part where it's based on current Discipline. It has needed to simply be based on max Discipline for a long time now.


I disagree. There should be an incentive for players to manage their Discipline well. Likewise, gauging when or when not to use Preparation should matter.
I agree, I like that dynamic.
Speaking from the Hardcore side. Yes there needs to be some kind of change on offense and defense, survivabilty is everything. Having the RoRG as a buff is a plus on season 16, that's if they keep it. Beings jewelry is the only thing you can put legendary gems in, i personally would like to see all jewelry with a sockets. Increase the % chance to get something usable in the cube, Kadala, or Myriam, not alot but some kind of increase. The damage increase from 100% to 350% is better than 0%, at least that's the way i look at it.
11/24/2018 11:18 AMPosted by Foxfire
Speaking from the Hardcore side. Yes there needs to be some kind of change on offense and defense, survivabilty is everything. Having the RoRG as a buff is a plus on season 16, that's if they keep it. Beings jewelry is the only thing you can put legendary gems in, i personally would like to see all jewelry with a sockets. Increase the % chance to get something usable in the cube, Kadala, or Myriam, not alot but some kind of increase. The damage increase from 100% to 350% is better than 0%, at least that's the way i look at it.


Or do what has made sense since the introduction of rama-lama-ding-dongs. Let us use them to socket jewelry just like weapons. Would let us reroll one bad affix plus get guaranteed socket without screwing around rerolling.
11/24/2018 10:10 AMPosted by RedCell
11/24/2018 07:44 AMPosted by TheTias
One of the things that UE really needs is to ditch the part where it's based on current Discipline. It has needed to simply be based on max Discipline for a long time now.


I disagree. There should be an incentive for players to manage their Discipline well. Likewise, gauging when or when not to use Preparation should matter.


I hardly have lesser than 80% of my Max Discipline given the (2) set bonus helping to recover my Disc much faster. Also, a generator goes well with the F&R.

Still, even with the F&R equipped, I still feel that the overall offensive capabilities of MS UE6 is inferior to that of say, MS M6.

Like I had mentioned before, the skill needs a revision, because for a spender, it sure as hell feel like a more damaging generator with damage amplifying complimentary legendaries.
After years of waiting for Blizzard to improve UE, I doubt it will ever happen. However, here is what I see are the problems with the build:

1. Enemy Crowd Control Resistance = Multishot is best at a range, but with this effect, it makes it increasingly difficult to keep targets at a range, and the effect becomes less and less likely to be placed on foes. As most builds for UE are dependent on CCs activating and giving us a damage boost, if this mechanic was removed, it would significantly improve our ability to be effective.

2. 1-Shotted by Spears = The most common death for a Demonhunter is a spear thrown by a Spearman. They throw it almost instantly when coming in range, it is nearly impossible to evade or even Vault from, and at GR 70+, is often a 1 hit kill, unless you have all your defense boosts up.

3. Duration of Wraps of Clarity = 5 seconds is a very short amount of time and I rarely manage to keep it always up. Anytime I fail to keep it up, I usually get 1-shotted. Similarly, the Ring of Evasion's 8 seconds is also very short. If the duration of the effect was doubled (pun intended) to say 10 seconds and 15 seconds respectively, then it would be significantly easier to keep our defenses up reliably.

4. Stone of Jordan Sucks = It has a nice Discipline boost, but it almost always rolls extremely poorly; it rarely has CC or CD or CDR on it. Thus, most either choose Focus/Restraint, which again has a very short duration on the effect active.

5. Vengeance Change = In order to make the build work, we NEED Seething Hatred to generate sufficient Hatred to keep the build active. If the effect of Seething Hatred was built DIRECTLY into the skill, rather than a Rune, we could choose Dark Heart instead (50% DR). When the devs built the speed boost of Whirlwind's Rune Hurricane into the skill, that was a great idea. Do the same here. We do not choose any other rune because Seething Hatred is CRITICAL to all builds. Additionally, we are limited to Dawn for Vengeance for the cube. If you built the reduced time from Dawn into Vengeance, then we could choose different weapon cubes instead.

6. Multishot is an expensive skill to cast, for the pittance of damage it offers. A comparative skill in terms of cost is Seismic Slam, costing 30 rage, but dealing a whopping 700% WD and it knocksback foes. My suggestion is to build the 500% damage rune directly into the skill, so that we can choose other Runes instead. Also, Multishot only deals damage and nothing else; most high-cost skills for other classes come with inherent effects such as slow, or knockback.

7. Finally, I'd say the biggest problem with the build is that it is powerful when you one-hit kill a foe, but when you run into meat-shields, the build falls apart. UE is a one-hit wonder, and if the foe isn't nearly dead or dead, then you just lack the firepower to kill them quickly.
Physical UE seems to be in a good spot actually. Live already cleared a GR 122. PTR damage is boosted by 8 GR. So the damage alone should allow a clear of 129/130.

The damage mitigation though… is another thing. ;)

5. Vengeance Change = If the effect of Seething Hatred was built DIRECTLY into the skill, rather than a Rune, we could choose Dark Heart instead (50% DR).


In my opinion, the 50% DR from Dark Heart should be baked into the un-runed Vengeance skill. Dark Heart should become something else, maybe a 20% Attack Speed or Damage boost for builds like S6 Impale/UE6 Grenades.

Back to the subject, they need to up the Damage / DR of Unhallowed Essence.

My vote goes:
UE4: 75% DR / Damage
UE6: 400% per discipline Point
Total Buff: 333% or 4.33x increase in damage

While every player is rewarded by a good map, UE6 Multishot's reward ceiling should match the top DH builds because the player has to be both lucky and coordinated to succeed.

Side note: there are toughness issues with pure M6, to counter balance the above recommendation, Zoey's Secret should get buffed from 9% -> 10% per companion, or, make Garwulf Cloak give 3 companions.
11/23/2018 06:08 PMPosted by clueso
I also noticed survivability issues as some other people here mentioned here as well.
The set could use more defense.


I don't think that defense is a problem for UE DHs. Sure pushing very high it will be an issue. But DH has a couple of skills, passives nd items to fix that. It is just that people go for the maximum damage variant which can work in a perfect grift with zombies only - because that can work with a ranged build.

UE DH can run Etlich (+35 ranged DR - that is huge as most elite damage is also ranged) instead of HF (one passive less ~1 level or so), Numbing traps (works because of thrill of the hunt) +25 DR, Wolf to boar or FoK on numlock, with some more RCR (now gunes and cindercoat are possible) -> EF-Focus to EF-hardened (25% more armor).

If UE sucks - it is due to damage multipliers. UE MS can be turned into "invincible" mode quite easily - you'll go down ~5 levels then. EW with elusive would be also an option (no stutterstepping then, though).

But options for defense are already there, IMO. Other classes don't have these options. There is also a couple of more stuff I didn't even mention (leech passive, no WH belt ...)

Currently the damage modifier is IMO to low, though. M6 gets a bigger multiplier, so no reason to use UE MS, when you can run M6 Ms with more defense which will be "on par" in the end as the multiplier fixes the no WH and one passive less problem.

Maybe use 500% as multiplier. And UE4 could be turned into always beeing active (that would help with UE nades which is not a top build, but still ...)

And let's be realistic. Top UE DH pushes over the top 10-20# ranks. Below that you won't see many UE DHs in the leaderboards. Reason is fishing and player skill (stutter stepping). Currently on live - the average player will push higher with S6 or N6/M4. So UE is not really the best push build (ignoring the ~1% who can push with UE). Basing the adjustments on the top 10 is not a good approach IMO. UE is currently on live not the best GR push build for 99% of the players. Only for 1%.
11/25/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Kindergarten
11/23/2018 06:08 PMPosted by clueso
I also noticed survivability issues as some other people here mentioned here as well.
The set could use more defense.


I don't think that defense is a problem for UE DHs. Sure pushing very high it will be an issue. But DH has a couple of skills, passives nd items to fix that. It is just that people go for the maximum damage variant which can work in a perfect grift with zombies only - because that can work with a ranged build.

UE DH can run Etlich (+35 ranged DR - that is huge as most elite damage is also ranged) instead of HF (one passive less ~1 level or so), Numbing traps (works because of thrill of the hunt) +25 DR, Wolf to boar or FoK on numlock, with some more RCR (now gunes and cindercoat are possible) -> EF-Focus to EF-hardened (25% more armor).

If UE sucks - it is due to damage multipliers. UE MS can be turned into "invincible" mode quite easily - you'll go down ~5 levels then. EW with elusive would be also an option (no stutterstepping then, though).

But options for defense are already there, IMO. Other classes don't have these options. There is also a couple of more stuff I didn't even mention (leech passive, no WH belt ...)

Currently the damage modifier is IMO to low, though. M6 gets a bigger multiplier, so no reason to use UE MS, when you can run M6 Ms with more defense which will be "on par" in the end as the multiplier fixes the no WH and one passive less problem.

Maybe use 500% as multiplier. And UE4 could be turned into always beeing active (that would help with UE nades which is not a top build, but still ...)

And let's be realistic. Top UE DH pushes over the top 10-20# ranks. Below that you won't see many UE DHs in the leaderboards. Reason is fishing and player skill (stutter stepping). Currently on live - the average player will push higher with S6 or N6/M4. So UE is not really the best push build (ignoring the ~1% who can push with UE). Basing the adjustments on the top 10 is not a good approach IMO. UE is currently on live not the best GR push build for 99% of the players. Only for 1%.


I agree and easier to sum my .02 cents saying comparing the acomplishments of singular, extremely high skilled players + massive paragon is not a good measure.

Far better is to see what median or mean point GR level the 1000 LB spots are per build. UE is here and there, sure...and as noted on non-season a few truly spectacular players who also happen to have 6k+ para have shown what bar UE can achieve....but overall it's not as competitive a push build vs say N6M4 or S6
11/25/2018 03:41 AMPosted by Cybah
Physical UE seems to be in a good spot actually. Live already cleared a GR 122. PTR damage is boosted by 8 GR. So the damage alone should allow a clear of 129/130.

The damage mitigation though… is another thing. ;)
And how many paragon points and primal ancients did that person have that cleared the GR 122 if you dont mind me asking...
11/25/2018 02:02 AMPosted by Bonegrinder
2. 1-Shotted by Spears = The most common death for a Demonhunter is a spear thrown by a Spearman. They throw it almost instantly when coming in range, it is nearly impossible to evade or even Vault from, and at GR 70+, is often a 1 hit kill, unless you have all your defense boosts up.
Doesn't just apply to UE MS though. There is scarcely a build that can survive for very long on mass spearthrowers, at least when pushing high GR.

11/25/2018 02:02 AMPosted by Bonegrinder
3. Duration of Wraps of Clarity = 5 seconds is a very short amount of time and I rarely manage to keep it always up. Anytime I fail to keep it up, I usually get 1-shotted. Similarly, the Ring of Evasion's 8 seconds is also very short. If the duration of the effect was doubled (pun intended) to say 10 seconds and 15 seconds respectively, then it would be significantly easier to keep our defenses up reliably.

4. Stone of Jordan Sucks = It has a nice Discipline boost, but it almost always rolls extremely poorly; it rarely has CC or CD or CDR on it. Thus, most either choose Focus/Restraint, which again has a very short duration on the effect active.
Not sure what the problem is here. Just learn to hit generator every 5 seconds. F&R WoL monk has it even worse (3 seconds on spirit guards). This comes down to practice, not the build itself.

11/25/2018 02:02 AMPosted by Bonegrinder
5. Vengeance Change = In order to make the build work, we NEED Seething Hatred to generate sufficient Hatred to keep the build active. If the effect of Seething Hatred was built DIRECTLY into the skill, rather than a Rune, we could choose Dark Heart instead (50% DR). When the devs built the speed boost of Whirlwind's Rune Hurricane into the skill, that was a great idea. Do the same here. We do not choose any other rune because Seething Hatred is CRITICAL to all builds. Additionally, we are limited to Dawn for Vengeance for the cube. If you built the reduced time from Dawn into Vengeance, then we could choose different weapon cubes instead.
Okay I agree here, though this just frees up an armor slot in place of Gunes, and there aren't many other great options for UE MS.

Best idea is to just straight up buff UE 4p/6p, as has been suggested.
please buff UE, pls devs!!!!!
as can be seen from the GR/PTR push thread:

DH:
UE (LIVE): 122 [Paragon 6300]
N6/M4 Cluster (free RoRG): 129 [Paragon 6000]
N6/M4 Multishot (free RoRG): Gr122 [Paragon 3400]
M6 Grenades (free RoRG): 128 [Paragon 7200]
Impale: 125 (free RoRG): [Paragon 6400]
UE (free RoRG): 120 [Paragon 4400]
N6 FoK Shi Mizu: 120 [Paragon 4100] <--- 125 estimated by Tares

UE is currently BEHIND where it is on live with the RoRG buff. I know the best players may not be pushing but the fact that no one can get to where it is on live with a 2.5X buff says something.
there are a ton of good ideas in this thread, please take a look at this

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