UE STILL NOT COMPETITIVE

PTR Feedback 2.6.4
If you guys want to push with UE competitively, then you've been sleeping for a long time since it was top tier DH build along with N6M4 for many months now, to be precise since S12 start. Every build benefits from high paragons - some more than others - and UE is actually one of those that *doesn't* require very high paragons to be successful, it's simply a high skill cap build. Making adjustments such as higher defensive bonus, scaling off max. discipline instead of current discipline etc. won't change a thing about the overall balance of the set since people pushing with it already maximize the builds' potential without dying or wasting their resources. If you can't push high tiers or farm efficiently with it, then that is something that you will be able to trace back to gameplay errors and lack of experience if you are paying attention.

In the upcoming patch UE will fall out of favor because it got a smaller buff than other sets and benefits less from a free RoRG too, but that's maybe not such a bad idea after all. UE is an obscenely strong farming build and it doesn't need to be the top pushing build at the same time, too. Even so, the gap is not big, it's just going to be 2-3 tiers behind N6M4 and M6 at their peak performance.
This might be right wudijo, but one of the most fun builds is also one of the hardest to play in higher GRs. That's why here are suggestion not to make it stronger, but easier to play.

I can understand both points of view though.
11/27/2018 07:09 AMPosted by Cybah
one of the most fun builds is also one of the hardest to play in higher GRs.
Coincidence? I think not. Please don't buff survivability, that's the last true test of play skill that we have!

Wudijo is one of the greatest demon hunter players out there, and I hope blizzard recognizes the wisdom he is sharing.
He basically said UE is fine. Are you sure?
11/27/2018 06:35 AMPosted by wudijo
that's maybe not such a bad idea after all. UE is an obscenely strong farming build and it doesn't need to be the top pushing build at the same time, too.
Wisdom.

Keep in mind that was said by a guy who accomplished more with UE multishot than all of the previous posters on this thread combined.
@Wudijo. While that's a good analysis, there's more to some things than you're letting on.

11/27/2018 06:35 AMPosted by wudijo
Every build benefits from high paragons - some more than others - and UE is actually one of those that *doesn't* require very high paragons to be successful, it's simply a high skill cap build.


This is the case in the current patch with high level gems, but on PTR I believe this may be a different story (paragons).

As you know of course, not only is UE the hardest set to push with, but it also requires more fishing and very specific rift scenarios to be successful. Being able to clear 8+ higher GR's means UE players will have to make some sacrifices to make up for 20 to 27% (mileage may vary) more incoming damage from mobs. This usually means pouring more paragon points into vit or sacrificing wolf or passive for additional damage reduction.

In order to put more points into vit than most already are, you need a lot of paragon so that the damage hit isn't crucial, or up the amount of keys burned for fishing to only find the mobs with the dumbest A.I. available.

So while UE didn't get as much of a buff this time around, it is the set right now that's going to have to make more sacrifices in the pursuit of pushing than the other sets, making UE "slightly" weaker than the comparisons imply, unless you have the paragons to spare imo.

11/27/2018 06:35 AMPosted by wudijo
Making adjustments such as higher defensive bonus, scaling off max. discipline instead of current discipline etc. won't change a thing about the overall balance of the set since people pushing with it already maximize the builds' potential without dying or wasting their resources.


Considering that decision making is a big part of clearing high tier rifts, it would certainly change the way players approach certain situations. Current pushers have mostly perfected UE play but it doesn't mean small perks won't be beneficial. It's like this in any game with a competitive following.

While I may or may not agree with the proposed changes asked, I can understand players wanting to find a way to make UE more accessible in more difficult GR's for 99% of UE players as long as it doesn't destroy balance across the board.

As a former pro war3 TFT and SC2 WoL GSL A player that had the privilege of getting my !@# handed to me live in Korea by Koreans, I can appreciate changes being specific to those good at a game. However, since D3 is basically in maintenance mode with no e-sports scene, I honestly believe that balancing only around the <1% of players would not make much sense here.

11/27/2018 06:35 AMPosted by wudijo
In the upcoming patch UE will fall out of favor because it got a smaller buff than other sets and benefits less from a free RoRG too, but that's maybe not such a bad idea after all. UE is an obscenely strong farming build and it doesn't need to be the top pushing build at the same time, too. Even so, the gap is not big, it's just going to be 2-3 tiers behind N6M4 and M6 at their peak performance.


True.
11/27/2018 06:35 AMPosted by wudijo
Even so, the gap is not big, it's just going to be 2-3 tiers behind N6M4 and M6 at their peak performance.


That's very misleading. Not only is it 2-3 tiers lower at the top, the % of completing a grift is a lot lower as well. Right now the other builds can drop 2-3grs from their top clear and be able to clear close to 100%, while UE would be lucky to clear 10% of the time (I think I am being generous with the % here). You'll pretty much need Festering Woods, good mob types, and decent pylons at the right time to clear the grift. This fact is even more evident in HC.

I am fine with UE being glass cannon, but currently it's more glass than cannon. Heck, if nothing changes, N6M4 Multishot would be better than UE Multishot in almost every way.
11/27/2018 06:12 PMPosted by Existential
11/27/2018 06:35 AMPosted by wudijo
Even so, the gap is not big, it's just going to be 2-3 tiers behind N6M4 and M6 at their peak performance.


I am fine with UE being glass cannon, but currently it's more glass than cannon. Heck, if nothing changes, N6M4 Multishot would be better than UE Multishot in almost every way.


this is what I'm worried about. I do not like the playstyle of N6M4 MS vs UE. That's the main reason i would like to see a bit more love given to UE.
If there should be a toughness buff, it should apply to DH generally and not just UE (e.g. Wraps of Clarity buff, barb/monk/sader 30% DR applied to DH), with the understanding that this is solely to offset the higher mob damage in higher GRs.

That way UE can keep its status as a glass cannon/high skill cap set, relative to the other DH sets. This is also why I do not support the idea of scaling off max discipline.
hopefully DH will not remain 10 grifts below other classes after this patch!!!
or at leat they should state: DH is just an entry character, for higher perfromance switch to other classes.
Buffing damage makes UE competitive, buffing defense makes it great for everyone.
1. Allow DH to put Paragon into Discipline. Change the Max Hatred increase to Max Hatred and Max Discipline.

25 more Discipline would be a nice little boost, and it would help a lot having that kind of Discipline on hand when Vaulting and what not.

2. Buff UE4 to 70%/70%

If wudijo is correct that it's only a few GR behind, then both of these changes are simple and should buff it just a little. About 2 GRs give or take if my math is correct.

But having the extra Disc like I said is just a nice QoL feature for farming. Let's you spam Vault some more.

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