D2 LOD Build Diversity Illusion (GR Testing)

General Discussion
Your entire post is about "viable" and "valid" meaning top DPS. In that regard every game has only 1 build. Seriously you are only looking at damage.

I had way more fun as my Tank Assassin, pulling Uber Diablo and killing the "DPS" builds so I could get the drops with my brother (Who was playing a Melee Amazon). Look if you aren't creative that's fine, you don't have to be good at a game to enjoy it, but a lot of us enjoyed the challenge of strange builds, and making them work.

End game was more than Baal bot runs. For me it was PvP and seeing how much I could solo with "weak" builds at /player 8.

The builds you mention only work when decked out, but my builds which were always self found items, non bot runs worked just fine thanks. It's not my fault if you can't solo Hell with a Melee Necromancer or a Bowbarian.


I didnt read your entire post i mainly skimmed it because of the condescending way you wrote it but you obviously didnt play D2 that long. Builds were constantly patched and evolving. Over the course of D2's history there were many many builds..


It only had various if you accepted those who couldnt do end game content. Post immunity introduction there was only very few build that could run end game content and most of them requires insane budget.

Tje OP is right claiming D3 have various build if you dont only consider those running the top GR.

Sure Pally in D2 could make a fist of heaven build. But they wouldnt be able to solo the vast majority of what we could call D2 end game.
11/22/2018 07:28 PMPosted by ShaiHulud
Your entire post is about "viable" and "valid" meaning top DPS. In that regard every game has only 1 build. Seriously you are only looking at damage.

I had way more fun as my Tank Assassin, pulling Uber Diablo and killing the "DPS" builds so I could get the drops with my brother (Who was playing a Melee Amazon). Look if you aren't creative that's fine, you don't have to be good at a game to enjoy it, but a lot of us enjoyed the challenge of strange builds, and making them work.

End game was more than Baal bot runs. For me it was PvP and seeing how much I could solo with "weak" builds at /player 8.

The builds you mention only work when decked out, but my builds which were always self found items, non bot runs worked just fine thanks. It's not my fault if you can't solo Hell with a Melee Necromancer or a Bowbarian.


What prevent you from making weak D3 build and see how far you can go ?
I dont know if many people feel the same - but for me diablo 2 had so much more depht, because it was nearly impossible to get your personal endgame build all alone. There were also so many alternative & really good items to make your build work. In diablo3 i have my best items 1-2 days after the season started.

You just had more choice how to play and how to build your char - in d3 you get a 6 set - which you totally have to use. Then you have your +DMG% weapon that is needed,too. Then you get either Bastion of Will or the Endless Walk Set because they are so super strong.
Thats 9 Slots of choice just gone.

Even WoW is moving away from it`s raid sets.
1. They are hard to balance
2. They take away so much choice

That is also why a lot of players want LoN buffed or Legendary´s damage multipliers added / buffed.

And of course - people also wanted to have "bis builds" in d2 - but you didnt loose like 200-400% dmg, when 1 item was missing.
[quote]They were never "complex" they had "depth". I dont know where this complex !@#$ is coming from. Skilling a point into a tree was never considered complex. Solving a rubix cube is complex, building a character in interesting ways is depth.

I didnt read your entire post i mainly skimmed it because of the condescending way you wrote it but you obviously didnt play D2 that long. Builds were constantly patched and evolving. Over the course of D2's history there were many many builds.

Also, PvP and trading was end game in D2. It wasn't a perfect endgame but it was better than grinding grifts endlessly.


Well said man. I’d take boss runs, Uber diablo, countless other non boss runs, pvp, trading, clan duels, cow runs over grift runs any day!
I haven't played D3 in a while but I do remember it feeling like there were no options when it came to gear and abilities you used. D2 was nothing like that, and without scaling difficulty you didn't need to have the best gear. People are going to compare the games forever in every way possible way, but for me, personally, D2 was infinitely more special and a lot more fun. It had its own personality, so to speak. I actually met friends on there and talked to people. Maybe it was the timing, I don't know. It probably wont be replicated again though. Next Diablo game I play will be 4, hopefully.
You don't need to design an endgame to have an endgame. You also don't need balance to have build diversity.

You just need players to have options to find their own fun rather than a scripted experience.

D2 had that whether it was intentional or not.

A build for baal was not necessarily the same as a build for uber trist or pit runs. There was a cap to difficulty so suboptimal builds had a purpose, they were a challenge to build and play.

There was also pvp which I never participated in, but people found their own balance even if it was imbalanced in general.
11/22/2018 08:06 PMPosted by REVival
[quote]They were never "complex" they had "depth". I dont know where this complex !@#$ is coming from. Skilling a point into a tree was never considered complex. Solving a rubix cube is complex, building a character in interesting ways is depth.

I didnt read your entire post i mainly skimmed it because of the condescending way you wrote it but you obviously didnt play D2 that long. Builds were constantly patched and evolving. Over the course of D2's history there were many many builds.

Also, PvP and trading was end game in D2. It wasn't a perfect endgame but it was better than grinding grifts endlessly.


Well said man. I’d take boss runs, Uber diablo, countless other non boss runs, pvp, trading, clan duels, cow runs over grift runs any day!


I played Diablo a TON in its heyday... for me it was trading but also PVP! And this is coming from a person who loathes PVP in any form in almost any game. Something about D2 PVP was fun to a casual like me though. It was a complete mess, completely imbalanced, no rules of any sort... people trying to "pop" you, it was stupid! but oddly enough it was fun in its chaos. You could teleport past somebody as a sorc and just zap them dead, or shoot guided arrows and hit somebody not even visible. Blizzard didn't care about balancing PVP, but so what...it was what it was. It was casual and people had a good time..sad to see so many people against it around here, like "hey, D3 isn't D2" and "people grief'd me it's soo horrible". Man, I have almost no memory of getting "grief'd" in D2. So exaggerated. It was also a chance to actually talk and communicate with other players, something D3 lacks that I think is pretty important.
Baal/chaos, magic finding, trading, crafting, ubers, dclone hunting, player vs player is a hell of a lot more than running grifts.

Let's not forget the social aspects of the original battle.net.

Blizzard knows DIII's development failed so what exactly are you defending?
11/22/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Ovian
Just saying, but here are the facts:

Diablo II LoD Endgame was Hell Baal, UT, maybe DC, CS Runs, MF Runs.

Diablo III Endgame is T13 Speedruns (equ. to Hell Baal, MF Runs, CS Runs), GR 70 (equ. to DC) and I wouldn't count it to endgame, but for the sake of UT Endgame in D2 LOD I'd say T(whatever) UT's for Hellfire Amu.

Either way guys, Diablo 2 had no real endgame.

incorrect.
sorry, but you are just, well, incorrect straight-up.

Example, a true one:
What's one endgame in Diablo 2? Lets say....chase items...for short.
so you'd be chasing an idk...windforce...that was pretty rare no matter how someone wants to chime in and say 'nah windforce aint rare'....well truth is...it really is/was super rare. no not the rarest in the game...but you can still be rare without being the absolute rarest.

so chasing an item...is endgame.
like the biggest endgame of diablo 2.
no, you didn't visualize, realize, and type that out.

see endgames are deeper than what you've listed.
'UTrist, D3Ubs, pvp" etc are the endgames the game lays out for you to complete...well some of them.

By far the biggest endgame to a correctly-made Diablo game is chase-items.
D3's chasers? Primals in the very last stages of the game...that are not unique-items in themselves...so they aren't a 'different' effect item than what your char already Is wearing. They don't even classify as chaseable because of how...well..exact same they are as ancients/norm legs.

What's D3's chaser?
Cosmic Wings. Think about that. Cosmic wings...a cosmetic...is the rarest item in the game. Rather have it be high runes or super-rare uniques, super-rare jewelers bases, or even crafting items..you chase something new...or that free's up a new gearing slot.

So there's one example of how Diablo 2 had way deeper , better, endgames than you thought of on your first/second pass.

Another great example of Diablo 2 endgame was LLD.
think of it as pvp that isn't tele all over.

D2 has more / better endgames than you listed.
Playing non-meta in itself Is an endgame.
In diablo 3 there's no static benchmark to compare your progress with.
in diablo 3 non-meta = nonset = 2k GR levels lower.
barf/
Err not to forget that ARPGs are not just 'endgame,' there's a story mode that is supposed to be enjoyable enough to play through with multiple chars if desired, not just something you try to skip at all costs...

What's with people thinking D3 vs D2 is just about 'end game activities' and not the entire experience.
Runewords, TRADING, having ingame currency that matters it was fun, its still fun, only downside is 800x600 :( if D2 had resolution of 1080p i would never touch d3
11/22/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Ovian
2 Good Builds in Diablo 2 LoD.


It occurs to me that you're ignoring immune system entirely. Also if that's the case, as I know there are quite a few builds out there who could atleast top those damage per hit.

11/22/2018 10:18 PMPosted by Dreadwyrm
only downside is 800x600 :( if D2 had resolution of 1080p i would never touch d3


Google "Diablo 2 Glide Wrapper". It won't be 1080p but I guess a close call.
Just saying, but here are the facts:

1) It would be a Light Sorc and nothing else. A light sorc with (BIS Spam:
Eshu 5/5 Die...


Crescent moon or wearing infi yourself is far more powerful than paper damaga aka eschu/hoto :-) just ensure that you have enough fcr for the last bp for lightning

but yeah the point is kinda valid, the infinite difficulty ruins build diversity and it would very likely have the same impact if it was implemented in D2
D2 had a lot more to do endgame compared to D3. Hell the devs wouldn't even implement any kind of viable pvp in D3. It's a joke.
Lets sum up your statements pro D2:


  • Trading
  • PVP
  • more skill adjustments due to manually assigning points
  • better item system - drop chances, rareness, no uber sets, charms and runes/runewords
  • killing bosses was somewhat more rewarding in terms of items
  • social aspects due to bnet features, trading and also 8 player parties
  • due to bosses being more rewarding, there was no need to have something like rifts/grifts but u got baal runs for instance
  • the difficulty levels were less and better set
  • less balancing in comparison to D3?


Is that it?
Since you don't have anything like GRs in D2 that means you have a lot of build diversity. There are a ton of builds that can clear hell difficulty. From what I was told that there is even a community that knows how to fix builds to where they would be able to clear hell difficulty if you are having a hard time. They even said that my broken Glacial Build could've been saved if I only knew that then I could've kept it and fixed the build.
11/22/2018 10:05 PMPosted by Headsoup
Err not to forget that ARPGs are not just 'endgame,' there's a story mode that is supposed to be enjoyable enough to play through with multiple chars if desired, not just something you try to skip at all costs...

What's with people thinking D3 vs D2 is just about 'end game activities' and not the entire experience.


This ... so much...

I haven't done D3 storyline since .... Well... The release of reaper of souls(Plus vanilla Diablo) ? And im alway thinking.... Why would i do it again ? Outside if im missing some achievement ?

This is so sad... While on Diablo 2 i just freaking love it. ( I really think the fact that Acts in D3 look a bit too similar to those of D2 might not help to make you feel interested in D3 for the story... Really again the desert in act 2 ? Again a Tristram in Act 1 ? Bastion keep was a friggin nice change of pace compared to the first 2 acts. But then again it hadn't nearly has much impact than the dark jungle of kurast which made me so hyped when i've met the Dark Wanderer as a kid!!)

I didn't await either to be fighting in the high heavens and honestly, it doesn't make much sense to me, im not even sure i know how Diablo managed to get there Oo might be because i didn't do the story in years.

I'd say the best act would be 5 just because it was entirely different than anything else i had seen till now. It was slightly darker and we've met that !@#$% Adria, meh i guess even in Diablo 1 she didn't really help us out so we get ride of Diablo but only to make him even stronger.

Malthael was quite nice enough, but the ^-*!ing @#$% just decided, oh hey!!! Let's break that soulstone and free every prime evils once more WAGHHHHHH! So much for getting ride of ''Demonic Corruption''....

Then because of that i thought, hey Expansion 2 CONFIRMED! NOPE! WRONG! No Mephisto fight for us lmao. (But yet again, shaterring the soul stone could have brought so much more to game if they had done more expansion and potentially added some of their scrapped idea like runes and ect for newer content)

Im not even sure why Izual is in Diablo 3... I know Diablo can reincarnate itself and he become stronger each time he is killed. But the hero clearly killed Izual and by doing so redeemed the soul of izual (which we clearly see in his angel form once he died!!!) Fan service ? Meh i hate that kind of fan service... An optional end game event to face him would have been better.

Deckard cain death should have been so much more glorious... It felt rushed. But hey the man was 83 years old. I doubt most peoples lives that long in the world of Sanctuary... He had a good life :(

But honestly im writting too much and loosing myself into everything i'd want to say. So that will be pretty much it.

I don't hate Diablo 3, but it could have been so much more. A new game should add something to the greatness of it's predecessor, not making it so lacking in comparison.
11/22/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Ovian
I'm saying this, because people claim Diablo II had so many builds. Yes, but most of them were not viable for the CONTENT the game had.

Despite all your effort, you seem to be unable to understand simple concepts about D2, and you build an argument on a completely false premise.

In D2 your character is not meant to be good at everything. You are not going to be efficient at farming everywhere, because immunities exist. This is a core part of the design and the appeal of the game.

Specific example: Say you take a Sorceress. Depending on how you would build one, you would have different MF routes, because some monsters are so high level, that even Infinity on your Merc can't break immunities.
If you're a Cold Sorceress, Eldritch is not going to be a part of your farming run.

It is a similar (if not the same) design Max Schaefer is going to use for Torchlight Frontiers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD175c2dH48
His idea is, that when you make a character, it's not going to be the best at everything. It's not hard to see where this idea originates from.

And sure, there are some exceptions to the rule. In D2 some builds like Summoner Necro with Corpse Explosion can do pretty much everything (including Ubers with revived Urdars for Crushing blow), but most builds aren't like that. Good luck beating the Ubers with your Hammerdin or your Lightning Sorceress!

Basically in D2 you make a character with a specific purpose.
I saw this design back in D2. It was obvious!
And now Max Schaefer (one of the creators of D2) is going to use more or less the same for Torchlight Frontiers. You can see where this comes from.

But apparently this concept is too hard for you understand, so you go trough next level mental mental gymnastics and build an argument on a completely false premis:

"Would there be a build diversity back in D2, if Greater Rifts existed back in D2" and proceed to make calculations as to which builds from D2 would work in GR if it existed back in D2, when the creators of D2 would never put something stupid like GRs and perpetual difficulty in their game in the first place.
If you can't wrap your head around that, then problem is entirely yours.


D3 doesn't have any of that. It doesn't have immunities and it doesn't have levels or content, that favor certain builds. It forces everyone into greater rifts, and then you wonder why people cry about build diversity.

One of the dumbests posts I've seen in my life.
11/22/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Ovian
I yet haven't made a video to it, but maybe I will in the winter time if anyone is interested.

By all means. Can't wait to see this nonsense.

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