Blizzard's old take on Seasonal legendaries

General Discussion
11/26/2018 11:50 AMPosted by MicroRNA
11/26/2018 11:20 AMPosted by MicroRNA
My plan is to play next season as I have for many seasons including the current one.

11/26/2018 11:40 AMPosted by DonMartin
I'm saying that it's OK to have seasonal incentives. That's all.You are making a big deal out of something you choose not to take part in.
Did you read the post that you quoted? It clearly stated that I was going to play next season. Also, season already has rewards that non-season does not have (e.g. wings/pets/portraits/etc..). Why do you need additional incentives that can not be accessed by non-season players? This smells of entitlement.


Well, if you are going to play anyway next season, then what's the issue? Fairness? Really?

I'm sorry, but this just sounds like a whine thread more than anything. I know you have been around the forums almost as long as I have Micro, but wow.

Personally I think having a seasonal only tweak is better than a global tweak during the season. This is the sort of thing they should have been doing for awhile now.

And your comment about them bringing in more power with gear changes affecting leader boards is fine, but as I said, we all know having a global legendary power that we won't have to equip would affect the boards even more.

And we know the non seasonal boards are often on a different schedule than the seasonal ones. So I can see that being one reason (despite what you think) that they would not make it game wide.
11/26/2018 12:00 PMPosted by DTMAce
Well, if you are going to play anyway next season, then what's the issue? Fairness? Really?
It's the principle of the thing. If you look back at my post history, I have been exceptional consistent. I was annoyed by seasonal legendaries and unhappy that they locked stash tabs behind seasons. I thought Blizzard had seen the error in their ways. I was disappointed to read otherwise in the patch note. I have played 10 of the last 11 seasons; however, I do not feel like it is fair to hide content in seasons.

I don't see how a global tweak is inferior to a seasonal tweak. Some people prefer seasons; some people prefer non-season. Live and let live.
11/26/2018 12:07 PMPosted by MicroRNA
and unhappy that they locked stash tabs behind seasons.


Hell, I'm still pissed about that. I haven't bothered with the seasonal journey since they added requiring mastering a set dungeon, because I abhor set dungeons entirely.

I do not feel like it is fair to hide content in seasons.


Right, you don't feel its fair. Apparently they and many others feel its fine, so majority wins? I don't know. All I know is there is probably a reason, even if they don't ever bother to explain themselves.

Isn't it fun playing a game with complete ambiguity about its direction awesome?
11/26/2018 12:50 PMPosted by DTMAce
I do not feel like it is fair to hide content in seasons.Right, you don't feel its fair. Apparently they and many others feel its fine, so majority wins? I don't know. All I know is there is probably a reason, even if they don't ever bother to explain themselves.

My wild speculation that is not based on specific knowledge is that Blizzard is doing the seasonal RRoG buff because:

1) They invested time/effort in setting up seasons
2) The number of seasonal players have declined more than anticipated over the past couple of seasons that have lacked significant updates/patches
3) Seasonal players login more frequently and spend more time in game in comparison to non-season players.
4) ATVI is shifting how they report things to investors to include how many unique users login and average daily time in game.
5) I suspect that D3/RoS on the PC/Consoles (excluding the recent Nintendo Switch port) is making very little money currently.
6) They are trying to figure out a way to keep Diablo consumer engagement while D4 is in development (and D:I for phones is on the near horizon).
11/26/2018 11:50 AMPosted by MicroRNA
Why do you need additional incentives that can not be accessed by non-season players?


I don't need anything, but it's a nice bonus.
Heres a counterpoint then for you.

If say Season 17 introduced a detriment effect as the "seasonal theme". Would you as a NON-SEASON player want it to affect the NS side you play. You will have to deal with the effect for 3 months with no way of opt'ing out of it.

I would think the outcry on the forums would be pretty massive if that happened. I for one would agree, maybe I wouldn't want to play with a penalty for 3 months during the "season".

If it was kept to "season only" then one can opt in for the challenge of what the penalty is for the season and those that don't want that effect can choose to not play season.

Just saying.
DragonMaster,
Since it appears that you missed this post....
Dragonmaster wrote: I'd almost guarantee if one of the future seasons had a detrimental effect as part of of the theme, NS would be complaining that they don't want the effect on the NS side. That is completely understandable as it shouldn't, its a seasonal "quirk" which people can opt-in by joining the season.

MicroRNA wrote in response: You are making the failed “Season of Handicap” argument that is implausible and based on an impossibility. There have been 15 (and soon to be 16 seasons), Blizzard will not make a “Season of Handicap”. You need to look no further than this and other threads where seasonal players complain about having the RRoG be season only rather than occur irrespective of season participation. If there was a “Season of Handicap”, a vocal number of seasonal players would complain and whine. You can look no further than now where some want an extra entitlement rather than equality.


Also, this counterargument has been floated around in other threads and has been summarily dismissed. See below from PTR:
11/26/2018 05:29 AMPosted by DreamKiller
11/25/2018 12:19 PMPosted by Dragonmaster
Really what if they did one season where its a penalty instead of a bonus. Then if you used the same principle you would see the NS players go, "keep season penalties out of NS."
Have you ever see that in the past 15 seasons ??? Of course not. That argument doesn't make sense !
11/25/2018 08:27 PMPosted by DTMAce
Its one thing to affect a single season, its another to skew with the non season leader boards and possibly irk off players for having it there.


I'd love to have the following for NS

-Illusuary boots+Hexing Pants for condemn/invoker(just the boots for I6) or the option for Heart of Iron (drop invoker bracers for Sang's on equip

-Cindercoat for my Sweeper 'sader

-Aquila or Ancient Parths for Hammerdin

Witch Doc and Necro would be crazy, too many options to list. Dh would be fun as well. Not everything I'd like to do would be for pushing, there are some great speed bounty/key farm builds that would suddenly appear.

I'm not going to play season for it, but it wouldn't anger people if it were on NS. Opening up build possibilities would have the opposite effect I think. Especially with the patch only being numbers.
11/26/2018 04:04 PMPosted by Dragonmaster
If say Season 17 introduced a detriment effect as the "seasonal theme". Would you as a NON-SEASON player want it to affect the NS side you play. You will have to deal with the effect for 3 months with no way of opt'ing out of it.


What kind of "detriment" effect are you talking about anyway?

If it's things like "Double Elites, Double Champion, Double RG or whatever could make the game slightly harder", I think that most people would welcome that.

The easiest "solution" is to run 2 different themes --- one for Season and one for NS. By doing so, even if you greatly dislike a theme, there's always the other side.
11/26/2018 12:50 PMPosted by DTMAce
I do not feel like it is fair to hide content in seasons.

Right, you don't feel its fair. Apparently they and many others feel its fine, so majority wins? I don't know. All I know is there is probably a reason, even if they don't ever bother to explain themselves.


This is the core issue. How is any content 'hidden' when it is equally and fairly available to all players, and the only way to miss out on the content is to deliberately choose not to access it?

If seasonal content is 'hidden' because some players don't like seasons, then surely bounties are also 'hidden' from players who find them a chore and hate running them and choose not to play that particular game mode? Are these players unfairly denied the chance to upgrade their legendary items in the cube? Or is that just the consequence of their own decision not to run bounties?

Players who choose to do bounties have to give up the opportunity to do more rewarding rifts and greater rifts for the duration of their time in bounties, so it's not like they don't have to give something up temporarily to play a different game mode. It's a cost/benefit analysis, and the answer will be different for each player - for some players it's worth running bounties a lot, or occasionally, or not at all - no right or wrong answer - unless the answer is for players who don't like bounties to demand that they get the caches in addition to the standard rewards for the game modes they do like.........
11/26/2018 05:52 PMPosted by spacecadet13
11/26/2018 12:50 PMPosted by DTMAce
I do not feel like it is fair to hide content in seasons.

Right, you don't feel its fair. Apparently they and many others feel its fine, so majority wins? I don't know. All I know is there is probably a reason, even if they don't ever bother to explain themselves.


This is the core issue. How is any content 'hidden' when it is equally and fairly available to all players, and the only way to miss out on the content is to deliberately choose not to access it?

If seasonal content is 'hidden' because some players don't like seasons, then surely bounties are also 'hidden' from players who find them a chore and hate running them and choose not to play that particular game mode? Are these players unfairly denied the chance to upgrade their legendary items in the cube? Or is that just the consequence of their own decision not to run bounties?

Players who choose to do bounties have to give up the opportunity to do more rewarding rifts and greater rifts for the duration of their time in bounties, so it's not like they don't have to give something up temporarily to play a different game mode. It's a cost/benefit analysis, and the answer will be different for each player - for some players it's worth running bounties a lot, or occasionally, or not at all - no right or wrong answer - unless the answer is for players who don't like bounties to demand that they get the caches in addition to the standard rewards for the game modes they do like.........
Hidden is not the right word. How about you mentally replace it with resides.

Your argument is a false equivalency. There are four game modes when one creates a character (most of the time):
Softcore seasons
Hardcore seasons
Softcore non-season
Hardcore non-season

In each, you can play campaign, adventure, challenge rifts. You can choose to do bounties or not. You can choose to do greater rifts or not. In season 16, someone who plays season will have the RROG buff available while a non-season player won't.
I would also like to add for those who want to keep the RRoG buff exclusive to seasons, a simple question. How would adding this buff also to non-season adversely affect your seasonal experience?
11/26/2018 04:48 PMPosted by MicroRNA
DragonMaster,
Since it appears that you missed this post....
Dragonmaster wrote: I'd almost guarantee if one of the future seasons had a detrimental effect as part of of the theme, NS would be complaining that they don't want the effect on the NS side. That is completely understandable as it shouldn't, its a seasonal "quirk" which people can opt-in by joining the season.

[quote]MicroRNA wrote in response: You are making the failed “Season of Handicap” argument that is implausible and based on an impossibility. There have been 15 (and soon to be 16 seasons), Blizzard will not make a “Season of Handicap”. You need to look no further than this and other threads where seasonal players complain about having the RRoG be season only rather than occur irrespective of season participation. If there was a “Season of Handicap”, a vocal number of seasonal players would complain and whine. You can look no further than now where some want an extra entitlement rather than equality.


Also, this counterargument has been floated around in other threads and has been summarily dismissed. See below from PTR:
11/26/2018 05:29 AMPosted by DreamKiller
11/25/2018 12:19 PMPosted by Dragonmaster
Really what if they did one season where its a penalty instead of a bonus. Then if you used the same principle you would see the NS players go, "keep season penalties out of NS."
Have you ever see that in the past 15 seasons ??? Of course not. That argument doesn't make sense !


Whats not to say they won't though. The RoRG is a unique buff thats been added that didn't exist for 15 prior seasons. Whats not to say this is more of an experiment for different themes to come. Last 2 themes don't really count since they were not "mechanic changes". They can easily come up with more diverse themes besides the past "double this".

The question does still stand, *IF* there was a theme that presented a challenge instead of a flat buff, would NS players want it to affect them knowing they have NO way of opting out. My guess still stands that a majority of people that play ONLY NS would say they don't want that challenge affecting NS play and would complain if it did.

1 challenge i can think right off the top of my head thats easy to implement is:
Kanai's cube legendary powers are disabled

Even a combo of a buff and a challenge can happen at the same time. But they haven't flat said "no" there will never be a "penalty" as a theme.
11/27/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Dragonmaster
1 challenge i can think right off the top of my head thats easy to implement is:
Kanai's cube legendary powers are disabled


I don't think they are crazy enough to flat out have a "nerf" as a theme. That would be stupid.

11/27/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Dragonmaster
The question does still stand, *IF* there was a theme that presented a challenge instead of a flat buff, would NS players want it to affect them knowing they have NO way of opting out.


As for making the game "more challenging", things like Double Elites and Champions, double RG, Double Ubers or whatsoever (not being creative here) should only really affect non-GR content. In non-GR, you actually welcome the increased density of Elites&Champions (more loot and DB), RG (double Keystone and loot), Ubers (although Hellfire Amulet is pretty much useless for most people, I don't think people would be against the idea of getting more), etc.

11/27/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Dragonmaster
My guess still stands that a majority of people that play ONLY NS would say they don't want that challenge affecting NS play and would complain if it did.


I actually think that a majority would welcome it. Sure, some people may not like it, but I think that more people will enjoy the extra spice. We're not talking about flat out nerfing characters here. Since it doesn't affect GR, then you can just bypass it most of the time.

---

Other potential theme:
-Elites drop bounty material corresponding to their Act.
-Non-Bounty Cursed Chest and Event become more rewarding and much harder (you can just skip it if you don't want to, since it's not bound to any Bounty)... well "harder" in the sense that it could spawn Bosses, Elites or whatsoever... but NS characters might be much stronger than T13, so it will be a walk in the park. It might encourage people to start new characters to experience it.
-Every Shrine and Pylon will automatically spawn an Elite/champion pack as well (in normal Rift)... so using Nemesis will spawn 2 packs at once.
-Ubers roam the earth... (you have a chance to encounter an Uber encounter anywhere outside of GR).
-RG roam the earth... (you have a chance to encounter a RG OUTSIDE of GR)
-Bosses roam the earth... (same thing)
-etc.
11/25/2018 08:15 PMPosted by MicroRNA
I find it ironic that in Season 16, you are again having content that is not immediately available to all players regardless of Season participation


Ha Ha, nice try! Play season and have the time of your life!

Game on!
Why would you quote something from 10 odd seasons ago the game has changed and moved on since then.

It's also no wonder they don't like posting on here as it will be quoted years latter as if they lied instead of the game just changing
11/26/2018 09:53 AMPosted by DoomBringer
Sure, seasons can have theme. What about NS then? Can't they have a different theme?

No, because NS is not even a game mode, it's just the dumpster where you characters end up after the season is over. Who would have fun pushing LB against those dirty asses 7k paragon tycoons who are botting 24/7 for years.
I actually think that a majority would welcome it. Sure, some people may not like it, but I think that more people will enjoy the extra spice. We're not talking about flat out nerfing characters here. Since it doesn't affect GR, then you can just bypass it most of the time.

My point exactly though, some people might not like it and if its a "core Mechanic's change" then if the theme affected NS, NS players have NO choice. It would be play with the handicap or don't play at all.

Some of the idea's you posted are cool but again are not really "core mechanics" changes. Things like extra elites are no different then the "double this" that we just had with the prior 2 seasons and those being season/non-season are just fine really. But the idea I proposed "kanai's leg powers disabled" or "all gem effects disabled" is a core mechanic that you cannot just bypass

Point is sure we don't know what future themes will be but I do feel that anything that changes "mechanics" should stay season only to allow people to Opt-In/Out of the effect.

The seasons are already short enough and shown that they really don't affect NS at all since NS characters have far more time to max out gear and fish for the best rifts. Any bumps in power that happen to season will barely affect the needle in NS just due to the shear time NS players have had to max out their characters to push the highest GRs. You dont really have everyone running around in 6000+ para's in the season (esp not at the start) and remember that doubling one's damage is only a 4-5ish GR bump.

Even if a theme had zomg you now do 5x damage this season only, that is still only a 10GR bump then prior what you could do. As you get higher and higher the needle moves less and less.
11/27/2018 12:28 PMPosted by Dragonmaster
My point exactly though, some people might not like it and if its a "core Mechanic's change" then if the theme affected NS, NS players have NO choice. It would be play with the handicap or don't play at all.


I don't personally want handicap. Note that all my suggested generic themes provide both "more challenge" (although T13 is quite easy) AND additional reward for besting it. As such, you can fully benefit from it.

11/27/2018 12:28 PMPosted by Dragonmaster
Some of the idea's you posted are cool but again are not really "core mechanics" changes. Things like extra elites are no different then the "double this" that we just had with the prior 2 seasons and those being season/non-season are just fine really. But the idea I proposed "kanai's leg powers disabled" or "all gem effects disabled" is a core mechanic that you cannot just bypass


Core Mechanics "nerf" should not be considered for NS, well, neither should it ever be considered for Seasons either.

Well, I'm not too optimistic about their themes anyway. Even the RoRG theme is quite lazy. All they needed to do is "check" the "Is RoRG equipped" to always "true".

I'm really not sure how much effort they are going to put into it.

11/27/2018 12:28 PMPosted by Dragonmaster
Point is sure we don't know what future themes will be but I do feel that anything that changes "mechanics" should stay season only to allow people to Opt-In/Out of the effect.


If it's not "nerf", then it shouldn't be a problem for most of us. Themes should aim to make the game more fun, not less fun.

11/27/2018 12:28 PMPosted by Dragonmaster
The seasons are already short enough and shown that they really don't affect NS at all since NS characters have far more time to max out gear and fish for the best rifts. Any bumps in power that happen to season will barely affect the needle in NS just due to the shear time NS players have had to max out their characters to push the highest GRs. You dont really have everyone running around in 6000+ para's in the season (esp not at the start) and remember that doubling one's damage is only a 4-5ish GR bump.


That's why my suggestions never affect GR. "Competitive" players like stability and predictability. As such, those changes won't affect them in GR.

A "doubling damage" would be a terrible NS theme, since overnight, they will be unable to do same GR they were able to do for 2-3 months, which is a "feels bad" moment and should be avoided.

Imagine if you suddenly can't play your build anymore (once RoRG buff wears out)? Seasons can have more mechanical changes whereas NS should have more generic themes (non-mechanical changes).
11/27/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Kani
Who would have fun pushing LB


I wondered the same thing. No point to any of it.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum