[Barbarian] - Feedback

PTR Feedback 2.6.4
I will keep it short this time, there is not much to talk about, we have provided pages of feedback in previous PTR's, and issues remain the same. Since this patch is number adjustment, nothing have changed mechanically and glaring issues are remaining. Needless to say, all of you are welcome to chime in and share your observations, there is literally nothing new, so it would be best if you can post your thoughts on damage output (compare live best to ptr best, try to do the clear ignoring RoRG buff because it is not permanent, and balancing long term should not be done around short term seasonal buff). This is work in progress, will work on things over next 2 days to have broader picture ready by Monday. Keep it civil, focus on raw data please.

Set Issues:

Wrath of The Wastes is underperforming despite high set bonus. Reason of it lays in overall set design, this build does not have any skill that can thin out density quick, because of that it relies on big open maps, huge clusters of mobs and AD to slowly mow down density. You cannot successfully play this build without all good factors aligned, which on top of steep gearing requirements and high learning curve makes this build unattractive to play. It is our least consistent build, to picture it better you can imagine that where other sets can clear 7 out of 10 maps on given level, this build can only do 3 out of 10.

Solution - include Rend in 6 PC bonus. It is easy fix, and will allow to decrease map and density dependence. As is, you need 2-3 screens of mobs pulled together to start dealing damage, with Rend turning into actual damage dealer - as is it is nearly useless skill, despite set giving some bonuses to it - Wastes could start clearing smaller packs of mobs and be more reliable. Current PTR damage output still too low.

Might of The Earth have 2 issues. One is nearly non existent sustain, other is extremely poor single target damage.

#1 - Lack of sustain is result of inner set design, since we can rely only on LpFS as healing source, and we need to use a spender only so often to reduce cooldowns, instead of recovering in more or less linear cycle, we are recovering in more of a "potion-peak" cycle. It is not a problem in speed runs or farming, but for pushing we cannot stay in the fray of the battle, and we are forced to leap away because we are unable to recover even slight portion of health in the process. BR - StP helps, but it is costing us a skill slot while providing very little in terms od DPS (10% Dibs when we use 200%+ already contributes very little).

Solution - bring back mechanic that recognized EQ spawned by set bonus and Blade of the Tribes as fury spenders. It is not new mechanics, It was in the game previously, and it allowed MoTE barbs to recover small portion of health while leaping and during rotation.

#2 - Lack of single target damage. MoTE clears are heavily DoT, AoE and AD dependent, MoTE lacks single target damage, and as much as during the rift it is not a problem (skill allows for dragging, recognizing when to skip and so on) it turns into disaster with unavoidable RG fight. On higher levels RG fight can take anywhere from 4 to 6 minutes, and it is due to Stricken Stacking. Due to Stricken mechanics and the way this build plays (it is a slow skill cast build, leap - leap - leap - auxiliary skill - slam is default rotation that takes few seconds to perform) MoTE is slowest stricken stacking build, and higher up it is cumulative stricken damage that kills RG. When you cope this low RG damage with a fact that higher up this build cannot equip CoE but have to play with Band of might, you ending up with slowest solo single target killer in the game.

Solution - give us viable nuke or change stricken stacking for this build. Overall damage output still too low.

Immortal King - will retest over the weekend, no changes, damage output still too low
Legacy of Raekors - will retest over the weekend

Outstanding issues


Itemization. Will write some more on that.
MotE: Make Leap a single target damage dealer. This will require accurate Leaping, and can be punishing when you misclick, but that makes the playstyle more fun imo. Very rewarding to pull it off.

Whirlwind: Add Rend to the 6-piece Bonus. I've been requesting this ever since the change from tornadoes to actual Whirlwind damage was made.
11/22/2018 09:58 AMPosted by Jako
Make Leap a single target damage dealer. This will require accurate Leaping, and can be punishing when you misclick, but that makes the playstyle more fun imo. Very rewarding to pull it off.


I'd love that. Promotes healthy gameplay. How to do it without any additional items though? Leap is already within 6 pc bonus.

11/22/2018 09:58 AMPosted by Jako
Add Rend to the 6-piece Bonus. I've been requesting this ever since the change from tornadoes to actual Whirlwind damage was made.


Ya, this is one of the reason why it is proposed as quick solution, it makes perfect sense. We talked about it for prolly past 2 years now. Rend currently is meaningless despite being within set bonuses. You give it this 10 000% on top of what it has, and it may actually turn into something good.
balancing barbarian sets is too much work and is out of question for developers

balancing CLASSES is what should be going on.whats the point of any buff when barbarian is still weakest dps class out there after PTR buffs go live ?

blizzard please ,for sake of balance between classes.

>>> straight buff up barbarian skill wrath of berserker from 50% to 150% dmg or double the current PTR dmg buffs for barbarian <<<<

with current PTR buffs, barbarian is underperforming horribly against sorceress, crusader and others classes in group (speaking of 100+)

PS. dont be afraid if barbarian ends up slightly above sorceress and crusader after new buffs goes live. after that many years of SHAME for barbarians, that would be actually appreciated, dont you think ? yes playing barbarian is shame because if we dont play support buffing slave ,we get kicked from group
Found some data

11/22/2018 08:27 AMPosted by prozealot
OK done testing PTR Barb WW. Results
para 3000: all gear ancient + augment 100 + gems 125.
105-12min (bad map)
100- 8min (good map)
95- 6min average
90- 4min average
85- 3min average rift.
So for me it's the worst scenario possible still WW barb the weakest to speedfarm.


11/22/2018 10:09 AMPosted by DieHard
That was a fast fold.

Remember this:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20769589826?page=1


Ya pushing on PTR is stupid, always was. But you have to understand that if average players will not do anything, there will be nerfs all over the place. PTR barb boards are already filled with 3000-5000 paragon players and clears. You cannot allow for balancing to happen around these levels. That's the reason why I created this thread.
11/22/2018 09:58 AMPosted by Jako
Make Leap a single target damage dealer. This will require accurate Leaping, and can be punishing when you misclick, but that makes the playstyle more fun imo. Very rewarding to pull it off.


I'd love that. Promotes healthy gameplay. How to do it without any additional items though? Leap is already within 6 pc bonus.

It's a longshot, because I doubt they will modify any Legendary items, but I would add it to Lut Socks. Give Lut Socks the Shadow-Impale treatment. Leap still works best with MotE so you'll still need to use the two as appropriately.
Still makes MOTE a mandatory 7 piece set though.
MotE has and always will be a 7-piece set.

Other Sets are also 7-piece sets. Lots of sets require other items. This shouldn't be surprising.
Is just a point as to why adding your leap damage suggestion to the set shouldn't be dismissed. Or the often suggested inverse of putting Lut bonus in the set.
11/22/2018 09:58 AMPosted by Jako
MotE: Make Leap a single target damage dealer. This will require accurate Leaping, and can be punishing when you misclick, but that makes the playstyle more fun imo. Very rewarding to pull it off.

Whirlwind: Add Rend to the 6-piece Bonus. I've been requesting this ever since the change from tornadoes to actual Whirlwind damage was made.


Thats exactly what I thought of with MOTE. Seems like a simple enough thing to do since its a number tweak for the most part.

I'd like to see the Cave In range increased to help deal with stubborn mobs you're trying to kite.
11/22/2018 09:48 AMPosted by S4v4G3
Wrath of The Wastes is underperforming despite high set bonus. Reason of it lays in overall set design, this build does not have any skill that can thin out density quick, because of that it relies on big open maps, huge clusters of mobs and AD to slowly mow down density. You cannot successfully play this build without all good factors aligned, which on top of steep gearing requirements and high learning curve makes this build unattractive to play. It is our least consistent build, to picture it better you can imagine that where other sets can clear 7 out of 10 maps on given level, this build can only do 3 out of 10.


Player from EU here, and I agree with this. Wastes is underperforming as it does not have any supporting Legendary to thin out mobs, unless it is in very high density. It is also still much lower in damage than R6 HoTA , even with the recent PTR buff. So Wastes still need more love.

While I understand the Solution that Savage is proposing (to include Rend in the 6 piece set damage bonus), as it is simple. I do not think it would be enough.

Another way is to rework the 2 piece bonus so you do more damage (by a certain multiplier) to mobs affected by rend, and that it would spread Rend to nearby mobs by their Death explosion, rend lasts 15s. (the spreading of Rend by death explosion is similar to Blood Bath, but it may free us from having Rend on the skill bar, as I do feel we need the survival skills placed there)

Another solution to the problem of doing so low damage when in low density is to have a supporting legendary similar to Bracers of Destruction , where SS does more damage to the first 5 mobs hit by SS.

If Whirlwind would have 500% more damage to the first 5 mobs hit (just Whirlwind part, not Dust devils), it would help in low density areas/GRs.

However, I do understand that adjustments to Bracers of Destruction to also include Whirlwind is not something that Blizzard Developers would do at this stage.

Another propsal is to introduce the Mortiks Bracers again, but I do not feel they would make a big contribution or solve the problems with Wastes.

If Rend is made part of the skill rotation for Wastes though, it would need some supporting Weapon legendary effect to replace Furnace in Cube, otherwise I doubt it will ever be a viable part of Wastes. As a simple example this Weapon would give an effect that when mobs are affected by Rend you do 50% more damage by WW (similar to Furnace, but would affect all mob types, not just Elites).
The weapon legandry effect would also lower the mob damage done if we are forced to use rend skill on the skill bar, if it replaces Threatning shout it should be around 20% damage to mobs affected by rend.

Another proposed solution is to rework the set to not use Rend at all, and make a more meaningful 2 piece set with another skill that can be used while Whirlwinding.

I have seen many great suggestions on the Barb forum in many Seasons (I have been playing since launch on and off), but none have really been close to be implemented.

And when I am on the topic of Barb forum, I should commend you guys for sticking around for so many years and proposing great ideas, although it seems they almost always fall on deaf ears.
Highest WW push so far: 117 (~5500 paragon) thanks to free RoRG (Cuirass used).
If all the current changes sre numbers only then fix Bracers of Destruction.

I'd like them to uncap it but numbers only patch... so make it first 30 enemies.

Again I would prefer uncapped but 30 enemies is a great start.
Cleared GR 116 with physical LeapQuakeSlam, it was around #22 on the leaderboard at that point, RoRG meta:

--- paragon 2425 + 1196 augments, which translates to pure 3621 paragon
--- cubed Fury of the Vanished Peak, Leoric´s Crown, Band of Might
--- equipped Blade of Tribes, Lut Socks, Bracers of Destruction, Girdle of Giants
--- Focus and Restraint, Hellfire Amulet
--- r112-115 Trapped, Stricken, Powerful
--- 150-200 msec latency

Leoric because it allows me to drop 2 CDR rolls on gear for Area Damage.

Note that my personal best on live with 250 less paragon is GR 109.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20759299966?page=12#post-230

On the other hand, with a GR 113 PB on live with R6 Hammer I failed the same GR 116 twice in a row. Will do more tests tomorrow...
Well with buff on WW set, now we re hyper fast in T13... It's something T.T
Personally I'd like to see MOTE work better to take a decent AOE role in group play and accept it's not our best boss killer/solo build.
They wouldn't have to change much, or things which are difficult I think.

- Some more defense.
Make playing without ESO gem or Band of Might in a half decent group with support easier, but still requiring either one solo.
By enhancing 4pcs MOTE Iron Impact bonus perhaps?
(would make ESO solo build a bit more forgiving as well)

- Add an increased EQ range somewhere in the MOTE set bonusses?
"Simply" increasing the radius?
Or make it stack not only in the overlapping area, but in non overlapping areas as well? so long as there is some overlapping of course. Though this might be a bit too much.

- Tweak 6pcs damage bonus accordingly
11/22/2018 10:46 PMPosted by DCoil
Personally I'd like to see MOTE work better to take a decent AOE role in group play and accept it's not our best boss killer/solo build.
They wouldn't have to change much, or things which are difficult I think.

- Some more defense.
Make playing without ESO gem or Band of Might in a half decent group with support easier, but still requiring either one solo.
By enhancing 4pcs MOTE Iron Impact bonus perhaps?
(would make ESO solo build a bit more forgiving as well)

- Add an increased EQ range somewhere in the MOTE set bonusses?
"Simply" increasing the radius?
Or make it stack not only in the overlapping area, but in non overlapping areas as well? so long as there is some overlapping of course. Though this might be a bit too much.

- Tweak 6pcs damage bonus accordingly


I could see where you are coming from. Toughness loss for damage is needed for group play , but we have no innate toughness besides the 4PC bonus. I'm sure a number tweak to the 150% additional Iron Impact could help with toughness. I have my thoughts on a separate post. Long story short, we need more toughness to rotate out for more damage builds like BoM for CoE or more damage , even from SS or EQ.
MotE Barb as a Trashkiller in groups… that would be great.
I played mote barb in the new season.

I think mote barb is much stronger (compare 2.6.2), ....but not strong enough.

It is still 4-5 level behind R6-hota in the new season, which means mote need double dmg.

WW now is good for t13 bounty split. As for the Grifts fishing, I think it is still at least 3 level behind.

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