PTR GR120 N6+FoK+Shimizu

Demon Hunter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvPXmB1D8ME (shameless promotion :D)

It seems that nothing changed and I'm still the only player left playing this build, so I've decided to give it a go. Thanks to the free RoRG next season I think it will be quite competitive.

I think I could do GR125 right now with the gear I have without too much a hustle, but with better gear/gems maybe higher.

It will not work on NS, which is a sad thing, since the buff to N6 itself is not enough to make it to the top. I've cleared GR116 with Natalya's and considering only the buff to 6-piece bonus then GR120-121 would be my limit.
worst build ever
:pepehands:
I was curious how this spec would do with the buffs. Have you tried the LON version?
11/25/2018 08:19 AMPosted by TastySouP
I was curious how this spec would do with the buffs. Have you tried the LON version?

No. LoN is way worse.
Dope build. Seems stronger than UE MS. Now that Fortress Ballista can be used, the level of execution required becomes more realistic... Would be interested in trying.

Would also be nice if they buffed it more, perhaps by re-introducing FoK dmg on the sash of knives belt. That way don't have to play around with grenades which don't seem to fit the character of the build. Here's to hoping...
11/25/2018 12:31 PMPosted by Ronin001
Dope build. Seems stronger than UE MS. Now that Fortress Ballista can be used, the level of execution required becomes more realistic... Would be interested in trying.

Would also be nice if they buffed it more, perhaps by re-introducing FoK dmg on the sash of knives belt. That way don't have to play around with grenades which don't seem to fit the character of the build. Here's to hoping...

Not a chance.
Hey Tares, what stats are needed for that build? have you a guide for it?
12/18/2018 01:09 AMPosted by Milano
have you a guide for it?

If you need a guide for it, you shouldn't try to play it. ;-)

This build is one of the hardest (if not the hardest) builds in the whole game, and it requires a lot of skill to play - even on lower levels. I personally don't like this build, because I just want to have some fun in the game without the need of 110% concentration all the time.

But if this build became competetive again in 2.6.4 it would be great, imho. Great effort and great skill should be rewarded. :)
12/18/2018 02:23 AMPosted by Hebalon
If you need a guide for it, you shouldn't try to play it. ;-)


Come on man, what sense does that make? :P

Of course the build is difficult, but every build has a guide and the dude is interested on the workings of the build. Why discourage exposure to an already rare build?

Let him decide for himself if it's for him or not lol.
12/18/2018 05:23 AMPosted by DiEoxidE
Come on man, what sense does that make? :P


I can see where Hebalon is coming from, because if Milano knew how the build works - he wouldn't be interessted in it anymore, I guess.

12/18/2018 01:09 AMPosted by Milano
Hey Tares, what stats are needed for that build? have you a guide for it?


I can try to explain the basics, although I never played it.

There are guides out there :
https://www.diablofans.com/builds/77270-solo-80-90-lon-fok-shi-mizu

Nothing significant has changed since then (just some item buffs)

Tares Shimizu profile is here:
https://eu.diablo3.com/en/profile/Tares-2734/hero/104568951

Shoulders and bracers are on this char:
https://eu.diablo3.com/en/profile/Tares-2734/hero/84603853

So that are the stats - note that you may wanna change some things with less paragon, as he can buy a lot of vit via paragon.

Basic concept: You have to get hit to be below 25% of life - so shimizu will get you to 100% CHC. No LoH, regen, LpK on gear allowed - would break the build. Also on Paragon (you have to remove all points in heal categories). Check follower too. No templar heal allowed.

If you get above 25% life - you are back at 5% CHC - basically no damage at all. If awareness procs this will also happen (as it is has some heal) - so you need to get hit again to get below 25% - but not die. It may be possible to stay at 25+ life while herding, but when you deal damage you need to be below 25%.

Since you have 100% CHC - no CHC at all on gear. Get as much AD as possible, CDR for perma vengeance (3 rolls). RCR, hatred regen (gets buffed by hexing) dunno - you have to balance it. One IAS roll to much, may break it, as you will run out of hatred to fast - no Aquilas anymore - awareness procs - you deal no damage, need to get hit again (but without aquilas buff) - dead. Vicious circle.

Check Tares build for IAS/RCR/hatred regen(he rolled IAS off on Andariels). Simple starter fix would be Gunes instead of Andariels and run seethe (could allow to take EF-Hardened instead of EF-Focus) Leorics would also be decent option (2 free CDR slots) - Andariels is just for pushing 1-2 levels higher. Wouldn't use it unless you know what to do.

Playstyle is in the vid. Basically stay below 25% life, whirl around and herd mobs, if LGF stack is at 30 and CoE lightning is active launch the nuclear FoK in the middle. If the elite survives (it depends on RNG if AD triggers the right way) - pull them with you. Ideally run open levels only or at least levels where you can herd huge mobs.

Vit and +% life is very important as it effects Shimizu life threshold and Ballista shield (but you have some spare slots because no CHC is needed). Tares may buy that via paragon - dunno. 200 points is 1000 vit if invested into vitality via paragon. With 4k he could buy 5k vit - still a 3k dude with huge armor. You have ~1,2k para. Different. Not saying that you need to buy 5k vit, dunno what Tares does.

Basically you use the shield from ballista to make up the super low life.

Like all builds there are some variations. Like using defensive gem (esoteric - stack phys res for that) and run a few levels lower.

High paragon will help, because you can invest a lot of points into vit.

Weapon: You gotta need a 65% dawn. 63%+ might work if you have another CDR roll - but that will be also less life or AD. Less than 63% on dawn, won't work. Since you can't cube it, you wanna have a 65% dawn - or bust (similar to UE nades). IAS on weapon can break the build as Aquilas won't be active anymore (or you have to sacrifice other rolls for RCR/hatred regen).

What you need to get the build working is:
-manage the hatred mechanic on gear to have Aquilas up all the time (also EF usage via playstyle)
-get the "get hit" thingy working, but don't die, while being at sub 25% life mechanic (to bad if you are at 25,0001% ;))
-herding trashmobs, pull elites with strafe and hit at the right time

What looks easy in the vid is actually not that easy. Gear is just knowledge (and having it). But Tares is the N6/Strafe dude, usually the only one that will show up in leaderboards with a strafe build. So he knows how to run strafe builds (Shimizu is just a quirky variant of N6). There is probably no other N6 strafe player in the last EU eras, besides him. The shown vid is also a great level for the build. It wouldn't work like this in dungeons with small hallways.
Couldn't you use Broken Promises instead to get the CHC and have no CHC on your gear, so you don't have to be at below 25% health the whole time, or does that not work?
Not a bad idea. In theory this could work (I think some tried with S2 FoK - but hard to manage EW + BP). BP does have its issues though. The higher your APS (with multiple hits via skill) the less it will trigger. It doesn't have an icon in the bar, so you gotta have to look out for "green numbers" (which can occur even with 5%). And the standard S2 FoK build relies on Sharpshooter (which is more reliable, IMO).

But it wouldn't really work with LoN though, because you need CoE which is a key item for this build and the damage is based on AD (where CoE is important to get those insane hit numbers). You can run other builds without CoE - maybe 3 levels lower or so (CoE is just like 50%). But with FoK, where everything is about to do the max damage hit every 30s - not really. You gotta stack all multipliers for that situation.

The concept is: Do no damage at all for 30 secs, and then hit the nuke. So you want the 3x CoE multiplier, trigger AD (with 150% on gear) on 10+ enemies - get lucky and get a lot of AD backfire on the elites.

With LoN Shimizu you might kill the elite or not. RNG. Depends on AD backfire (RNG). BP allows more toughness - but you lose CoE, which is a key item here, because of how AD works and because the build does only do damage once in 30 secs. This hit has to be "perfect". Average works for fast attacking build, but not really for FoK only builds.

The easy version would be N6. It might work with Broken Promisses (but then you would have to drop F+R for it).
Next season may allow some variants. I don't have any clue about N6 builds. But since it is a 7 piece set, you could drop Nat Slayer+dualwield. 2hand Xbows have ~39% more damage per hit (losing dualwield 130 CHC, but gaining 10% CHC and you could use HPS for 20% more ele). Dunno - that is up to the N6 experts - but N6 has a high new build potential.
Yeah, I see it not working at all with LoN since CoE is an essential part of the build, but I'd be interested in seeing it with BP instead for N6. Just in theory crafting. I won't actually do it. That build is almost impossible for me to do with my old adz rig.
I can see where Hebalon is coming from, because if Milano knew how the build works - he wouldn't be interessted in it anymore, I guess.


Ya, but realistically that's not how it sounded.

12/18/2018 02:23 AMPosted by Hebalon
If you need a guide for it, you shouldn't try to play it. ;-)


Sounds more like "if you don't know about it already, you're probably won't be able to pull it off and a guide won't help you"

Imagine if all of my variation build/findings threads started off with a disclaimer of "If you can't step or need to watch a stutter stepping tutorial, you shouldn't even attempt this", it would sound like I'm being a prick, even if I didn't mean for it to be. I've been guilty of this myself in the past.

Outside of that, I get that there's a high chance that one may not be interested once they know more details about builds with steep learning curves. I use to think a lot like that as well. After speaking with more people that generally lurk rather than post, it appears it's still appreciated, whether they try the more difficult setups or not.

We also have to realize that D3 isn't really mechanically complicated and considered a low skill cap game by gaming standards, but it has a rather frustrating infinite artificial difficulty that more serious players attempt gimp by rolling for chance due to game design and ladder. Those that have played at a decently high level extensively in other games that require a lot of macro and micro management generally have an easy time executing core mechanics and builds in D3.

A player asking could very well be an e-sport gamer and nail it in a week. Who knows :P That's why IMO it makes the most sense to just get the info out there and let the player decide if they feel like putting in that kind of effort to kill stuff.
I am sorry if my previous posting sounded too harsh. Kindergarten got my intention right.

My point is, that this is not a build you read a guide about, practice a few hours and then start pushing the leaderboards. You need days or probably even weeks to make this build working for you. And while you do that, you will figure out most of the stuff by yourself. 3xCDR as always, no chc, high vitality, lots of AD, what Kindergarten explained.

Many DH builds are quite easy to play, but hard to master. Even stutter step is (somewhat) easy to play, as "bad stutter stepping" still works (somehow) in lower GR. With more and more practice, you will climb higher in the leaderboards.
But this one is very hard to play, and even harder to master. I would say it's even a lot harder than stutter stepping.

A few months ago there was a CR with such a build (original runner: wudijo), and only very few players got the reward cache that week ... for example Tares. Even some very experienced players tried several hours to beat the original time - without success.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmEI1u02tM8

So, @Milano: If you want to learn a great unique build, try this one. But be prepared for a lot of frustrating practice, until you notice some success. ;-)
12/18/2018 11:45 PMPosted by Hebalon
My point is, that this is not a build you read a guide about, practice a few hours and then start pushing the leaderboards. You need days or probably even weeks to make this build working for you. And while you do that, you will figure out most of the stuff by yourself. 3xCDR as always, no chc, high vitality, lots of AD, what Kindergarten explained.
.

No build is technically like that, with maybe the exception of N6/M4 cold because of it's straight forward play style.

Pushing leaderboards has always been mostly about the maps. You can give Fata1ty, Boxer or Daigo (in their primes) a month to work on a build with proper gear/gems/paragon, and no matter how talented they may be, would never finish 95% of maps given at what's considered top 5 worthy GR's.

12/18/2018 11:45 PMPosted by Hebalon
Many DH builds are quite easy to play, but hard to master. Even stutter step is (somewhat) easy to play, as "bad stutter stepping" still works (somehow) in lower GR. With more and more practice, you will climb higher in the leaderboards.
But this one is very hard to play, and even harder to master. I would say it's even a lot harder than stutter stepping.


I'm sure you understood the point I was making, but I notice the old school Impreza-lite subtle jab there. You attempted the same thing in my IAS thread. Now I sorta miss Impreza lol. Those were some fun and intense times :P Anyways, in a game like this, difficulty IMO is relative. Since the A.I. actions don't change and can't learn/adapt regardless of GR level, it's all about what one finds more challenging.

Perfect examples of this would be exactly what you mentioned. Wudijo ran FoK Shimizu seasons back with pristine control and success. He admitted he's not a great stutter stepper, which is sorta opposite of what you feel is more difficult but this is not surprising.

In any game where macro and micro management are present, most players will naturally be stronger in one category than the other. Good players will still lean towards one side more than the other, but will learn to be decent at both. Very rarely will you see a player master both. This is most apparent in RTS's and MOBA's (MOBA's being an extension of RTS's by default), and even the most highly paid and praised players of these genre's still slightly lean more on one side than another.

FoK shimizu and let's say a hexing pants UE build are literally on the opposite extremes of each other. FoK shimizu doesn't require high APM (micro management). In fact, it has to be low APM because of how the rhythm works with strafe/EF. What it does require is an extreme level of macro management and awareness that other builds don't get nearly as close to. Someone who excels at macro management (and a lot of patience) would fare better with a FoK shimizu setup given proper practice.

On the other end, Stutter stepping hexing MS setups require a ridiculously high APM, higher than any setup in the game, but are usually coupled with builds that require lower macro management and an easy to use spam-able skill (Multishot). One who excels at micro management would fare better with this setup, also given proper practice.

Picking on myself here a bit, I have better N6/M4 gear than I do UE and I can't perform as well with N6/M4 as I can with UE. Sad I know. It's typically the opposite for most players. I mentally struggle with the EW play style, as I'm a reactionary reflex player that thrives in frantic chaos that would rather "out-micro" content whether it's efficient or not.

At the end of the day, most players are going to take the path of least resistance (thought I'd never say that again). While players may not attempt the stuff above due to steep learning curves, the bigger reason these are not popular will always be because there's not a reason to if leader-boards are the goal. Why play anything else but N6/M4 or s6 (groups) when hybrid gives you better results with less fishing and doesn't require much macro or micro management?

12/18/2018 11:45 PMPosted by Hebalon
A few months ago there was a CR with such a build (original runner: wudijo), and only very few players got the reward cache that week ... for example Tares. Even some very experienced players tried several hours to beat the original time - without success.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmEI1u02tM8


I remember that and thought it was hilarious. Felt bad for a lot of people lol. I do want to remove the curtain on a rather large elephant in the room.

"As a direct challenge to wudijo, I just couldn't pass it :) Although I'm too lazy to get rank 1, I'm quite happy with the result. Somehow running the same rift over and over again is not fun for me."


Quoted directly from Tares' video (fantastic video btw Tares). This is important because motivation is a huge factor on whether people want to do something. Given that this is Tares' specialty, he definitely could have gone for rank 1 on the CR, but he was not propelled enough to do so and even stated running the rift a lot wasn't fun.

Now take this, and expand this to players who normally don't run the build who mainly do CR's only for the cache rewards, which is the overwhelming majority. Of course a rare build play style with a steep learning curve that most never attempted before the CR, experienced D3 players are going to fail a lot in a matter of a few hours. Try taking an NFL Wide Receiver and tell him to play Quarterback for a game. That would be a hilarious game. Same concept.

Taking casuals out of the equation, what would motivate experienced players to practice a build for days to complete a CR? The reason for doing CR's is how efficient they are for getting bounty cache's. Ironically, people generally don't play CR's for the challenge lol. The comments in the video shows this as well.

You see this in normal leader-boards as well. There's not a single worthwhile reward for farming up hundreds of keys to spend entire weekends failing at a single GR until you finally find one you can finish. Not every experienced player is going to do that and/or run the most difficult builds to do that with, as the motivation typically isn't there outside of the absolute die-hards. We would totally see some new names if the competitive approach to the game wasn't so absurd, even more if there was some sort of reward system.
APM are Actions Per Minute? Maybe I haven't seen a true stutter stepper at work yet, but in the video from Tares here I do see quite a high APM value, as Strafe and EF alternate quite fast. Of course, I would agree that stutter stepping and strafe builds are different things, and that it's a good idea to focus on only one thing to master.

Anyway, I don't want to get on your nerves with my postings. I do not disagree with what you write. We both have just different point of views, and maybe different goals in the game.

For example, when I am talking about pushing the leaderboards, this always excludes fishing for the right map with the right pylons (at least almost). When I run GR "X" for a few (5-10?) times, and I don't get it done in 15 minutes, I stop trying. Sometimes I may use up to 20 keys, but I never used dozens or even hundreds of keys for my rankings.

I want to add, that I do react kinda allergic to some statements, and I do know that this is something I have to work on. The main reason for that is probably a well known german streamer, who is doing a great job for several classes, but has only little experience with our class here. And it happened more than once that he talked about "the best DH build", but missed some key aspects of the build (e.g. he recommended "Loaded for Bear" and Ballistics for M6-Grenades), and then players asked in the forums "why can't I do GR XY with this build?".

So, whenever I see a rather unexperienced player (just an assumption here, maybe I am wrong) asking for a build that I would call "high end", an alarm goes off in my head. It's just my experience that this does not go well in most cases. Maybe I am wrong there as well.

For example, talking about UE: I always recommend Arsenal over physical, even though I do know very well that all the top clears are done with physical. Often I do add, that physical has its advantages, but that these only start to count if you drastically change the playstyle. The same goes for N6/M4 - I always use cold, not fire.

Its hard for me to explain what I mean exactly, as english is obviously not my native language, but I hope you get the idea.

I probably would have reacted differently when Milano would've asked for some specifics, like "how much AD?", or "do you skip all chc on your gear, or do you have some backup chc, just in case?".

@leaderboards: I think we do agree in that point at least. Leaderboards based on fishing for the right map-monster combination with perfectly placed pylons is not exactly what I would call a good design for a competition. And even if I did play N6M4 for quite some time now, I play the variant that would not bring me at the top of the rankings. I just like the playstyle.
But probably I switch to M6 Grenades next season. The current CR in EU (No-Set-Grenades) was quite fun for me. ;-)
12/19/2018 07:53 AMPosted by Hebalon
So, whenever I see a rather unexperienced player (just an assumption here, maybe I am wrong) asking for a build that I would call "high end", an alarm goes off in my head. It's just my experience that this does not go well in most cases. Maybe I am wrong there as well.


I think you are 100% right. Problem happens a lot when new(ish) players simply head to Icy Veins and copy a build that they see says "top tier" or "high tier" and then can't figure out why they can't get on a LB or push truly high content.

Perfect example is the UE MS build guide there - no mention of a physical variant which is the real top MS build, barely a mention of cubing Cindercoat to help with RCR (only Gunes for DR or noting Cinder for cheap vaulting), no mention of Single Out passive that DiE has pretty definitively (IMO) shown is better than Ambush, no mention of using anything but CoE and Wolf (which requires somwhat exquisite timing that most players don't have)...and it goes on and on.

I think those builds are good jumping off points, but you really have to come here to learn the finer details. I would have never tried Single Out cuz, you know Ambush is SO OP, without diving in here...and my clears have gone higher as a result.

New(ish...Milano is 12xx para with only a single DH toon that I saw) players also tend to see a build mentioned here but don't look to see who is talking about it. Running a specific niche build as a 4k paragon is way different than 1200...I've run with dmkt, DiE, Var, and others who crush my paragon and I spend the rift thinking "please don't embarrass yourself with your play" - it's a whole different ballgame - it'd be like me trying to run DiE Hexing spec and I'd be so frustrated I'd quit because I just don't have the time to focus on the minute details and skill development...
12/19/2018 07:53 AMPosted by Hebalon
APM are Actions Per Minute? Maybe I haven't seen a true stutter stepper at work yet, but in the video from Tares here I do see quite a high APM value, as Strafe and EF alternate quite fast. Of course, I would agree that stutter stepping and strafe builds are different things, and that it's a good idea to focus on only one thing to master.


I want to shine some light on this.

In a FoK build, the skill that is doing the offensive muscle, requires roughly 1 action a minute (or 1 APM). Most of the other skills for prepping and buffs are cooldown based and requires 1 action every few seconds. Strafe/EF combo is happening between 1.5 to 2 times a second depending on variation, with strafe being held down and EF being the one firing.

Average APM necessary to play FoK build will range between 110 and 140. N6/M4 APM requirements are in the same range with S6 being a little lower. Sounds like a lot right? But....

In a true force stop stepping build, the main offensive skill is MS, and that's being fired at a standard 3 times a second. To have full control over your DH, you have to click in between each MS shot for re-positioning, so every second in which you fire MS, you need 6 actions total. If you map MS to left click, then you're using force stop every time you fire MS. That's another 3 actions. We're up to 9 actions a second as force stop registers slightly before the skill does, making it it's own individual action with timing. Generating hatred is 2 aps, so that's 6 actions a second and that's considered the relax period.

Ignoring vault, wolf, preparation and vengeance, the average APM required will be between 330 low end(if you only unload on CoE cycles) and 450 at the high end for hexing pants users.

In terms of micro, it's not close but obviously the pendulum swings the other direction completely in terms of macro.

Btw I believe you have seen the latter in action. I posted several vids and so has RedCell. They don't get as much attention because they weren't fished GR clears. Something told me I should have recorded that week 1 season 104 clear as top seed UE at the time in the previous season, despite me doing exactly the same thing in my speed clears against the same coded A.I. Silly how much more weight that holds lol. I understand the mindset, but I digress.

12/19/2018 07:53 AMPosted by Hebalon
Anyway, I don't want to get on your nerves with my postings. I do not disagree with what you write. We both have just different point of views, and maybe different goals in the game.


Disagreements are good. End result is more information presented that people may or may not know, or a point of view that may not have been thought of. It's a win/win for the community. It's why I made the Impreza remark. We use to do this on a near daily basis in Vanilla :P

12/19/2018 07:53 AMPosted by Hebalon
For example, when I am talking about pushing the leaderboards, this always excludes fishing for the right map with the right pylons (at least almost). When I run GR "X" for a few (5-10?) times, and I don't get it done in 15 minutes, I stop trying. Sometimes I may use up to 20 keys, but I never used dozens or even hundreds of keys for my rankings.


Bro that's even more keys than I care to spend lol, but ya I agree.

I want to add, that I do react kinda allergic to some statements, and I do know that this is something I have to work on. The main reason for that is probably a well known german streamer, who is doing a great job for several classes, but has only little experience with our class here. And it happened more than once that he talked about "the best DH build", but missed some key aspects of the build (e.g. he recommended "Loaded for Bear" and Ballistics for M6-Grenades), and then players asked in the forums "why can't I do GR XY with this build?".

For example, talking about UE: I always recommend Arsenal over physical, even though I do know very well that all the top clears are done with physical. Often I do add, that physical has its advantages, but that these only start to count if you drastically change the playstyle. The same goes for N6/M4 - I always use cold, not fire.


Agreed.

12/19/2018 07:53 AMPosted by Hebalon
@leaderboards: I think we do agree in that point at least. Leaderboards based on fishing for the right map-monster combination with perfectly placed pylons is not exactly what I would call a good design for a competition. And even if I did play N6M4 for quite some time now, I play the variant that would not bring me at the top of the rankings. I just like the playstyle.
But probably I switch to M6 Grenades next season. The current CR in EU (No-Set-Grenades) was quite fun for me. ;-)


Yup.

I like picking "debates" albeit sometimes aggressively with specific players when I know there's going to be a well written response. You don't learn anything if your point of view isn't challenged. An awesome disagreement I was recently in was with Kindergarten and that was fantastic and a lot of fun (at least for me, dunno if he found it fun or not lol). It challenged me to go back and fiddle around with what we were disagreeing over and it changed my setup and point of view a little.

Stuff like this needs to happen IMO. I may be having fun at your expense if you aren't enjoying the exchange lol, but I hope there's no love lost (>^^)>

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