Legacy of Nightmares

General Discussion
I appreciate the LoN set being buffed and I hope that it leads to greater build diversity.

However, please compare the 5 times increase from LoN to the 5 times increase many sets got or the 10 times increase of Inna's Mantra.

A 5x increase to LoN in the absence of the other buffs may have made it viable. But the increase at this point really needs to be more competitive with the updated sets.

Build diversity is something sorely lacking in D3 when set bonuses are required for high end content. The point of the LoN set was to open up greater build diversity and make us excited to see that red beam. To me, that's a far more engaging loot hunt than to find a slightly better version of the same set items I'll already have.
The Sets that got buffed were under performing Like LoN. So this patch was buffing all other sets to perform closer to Pestilance/Akkhan's.
I see a lot of people struggle with the concept of why LoN is the lowest multiplier. The two biggest reasons are that 1. it's global. It buffs everything about your character, all damaging skills, and even gems like Pain Enhancer. And 2. you can stack/equip several more legendary powers, increasing its potential over that of any set (if the numbers were comparable). So, I think 500% (probably will be nerfed to 400% honestly) is perfectly okay for LoN, if it were any higher it would eclipse everything else. Honestly I thought it would be buffed to like 150%-200% when I advocated for buffs to it long ago. So having such a massive buff to it is a very welcome surprise. No need to ask for more, for the reasons listed above :)
A lot of people fail to remember Lon being 800 on ptr once upon a time and people easily soloing 150s
Very few sets got buffed by 10*

Most of them saw a 2-4* improvement to their current iteration. You're cherry picking to make your point hold more weight.

I'm skeptical myself of the viability of LoN for ladder play even after the change. I might just skip out on worrying about it at all and just make up some wonky build and push it as high as I can for funsies.
11/20/2018 01:46 PMPosted by Stolifiend
A lot of people fail to remember Lon being 800 on ptr once upon a time and people easily soloing 150s


I honestly hope they give it a 1% buff to toughness as well. Just so you don't get trashed in the upper greater rifts.
OP your forgetting the power of +elemental damage normally stacked on LON builds.
11/20/2018 01:55 PMPosted by CHAOS
OP your forgetting the power of +elemental damage normally stacked on LON builds.


I've heard the bonus from LoN set is additive, are the bonuses outside of the set multiplicative to the sets bonus? I.E the elemental %dam, legendary gems, ect ect.

I'm not exactly clear on it as I have never made a LoN build.
11/20/2018 01:44 PMPosted by SuperCuddles
So, I think 500% (probably will be nerfed to 400% honestly) is perfectly okay for LoN

It's really not...unless you're using LoN with the main/popular support items that other builds have with existing legendaries that already give huge % dmg multipliers.

LoN used with an unpopular skill/main nuke/rune that is low dmg, and even worse, if it has no support items, is not going to be pushing high GR's. The whole purpose of LoN was to play your way and get away from the main nuke skills that are specific to other sets.
11/20/2018 01:58 PMPosted by Kithelle
11/20/2018 01:55 PMPosted by CHAOS
OP your forgetting the power of +elemental damage normally stacked on LON builds.


I've heard the bonus from LoN set is additive, are the bonuses outside of the set multiplicative to the sets bonus? I.E the elemental %dam, legendary gems, ect ect.

I'm not exactly clear on it as I have never made a LoN build.


Not 100% certain on this either. I know the Inarius' Grace set for necromancer buffs everything you do, including your gems.
11/20/2018 02:08 PMPosted by PhoenixForce

It's really not...unless you're using LoN with the main/popular support items that other builds have with existing legendaries that already give huge % dmg multipliers.

LoN used with an unpopular skill/main nuke/rune that is low dmg, and even worse, if it has no support items, is not going to be pushing high GR's. The whole purpose of LoN was to play your way and get away from the main nuke skills that are specific to other sets.


This right here ^

This is why Blizzard has had a terrible time balancing LoN. It's not about the number increase (while it is a factor, it's not the primary problem.) It's the lack of legendary support for skills. The problem with LoN is that any build you make with it is essentially going to be a similar build to an existing set, because those sets have legendaries that support them. The best possible buff to LoN would be more skills and runes of skills getting legendary support in multiple item slots. THAT is what will make it competitive.

It goes something like this: why would you want to make a LoN build that is essentially a mimic of a set build, when the set build is far easier to gear for and doesn't require everything to be an ancient.

Something I've mentioned a lot before is that I would want the 2 piece sets in the game, for example Jesseth's, to not disable LoN. There are lots of builds I could make with these sets if only they didn't disable LoN, and thus HAVE to be used with a 6 piece set.
11/20/2018 01:58 PMPosted by Kithelle
11/20/2018 01:55 PMPosted by CHAOS
OP your forgetting the power of +elemental damage normally stacked on LON builds.


I've heard the bonus from LoN set is additive, are the bonuses outside of the set multiplicative to the sets bonus? I.E the elemental %dam, legendary gems, ect ect.

I'm not exactly clear on it as I have never made a LoN build.


Multiplicative Damage is a term used to describe damage bonuses that are typically not summed with any other bonuses, only within themselves (ie. 15% Fire + 15% Fire = 30% Fire Damage) and will be multiplied against the whole equation individually. These are very powerful bonuses and you should strive to reasonably obtain as many of them as possible.
11/20/2018 01:58 PMPosted by Kithelle
...

I've heard the bonus from LoN set is additive, are the bonuses outside of the set multiplicative to the sets bonus? I.E the elemental %dam, legendary gems, ect ect.

I'm not exactly clear on it as I have never made a LoN build.


Multiplicative Damage is a term used to describe damage bonuses that are typically not summed with any other bonuses, only within themselves (ie. 15% Fire + 15% Fire = 30% Fire Damage) and will be multiplied against the whole equation individually. These are very powerful bonuses and you should strive to reasonably obtain as many of them as possible.


Elemental dmg is not additive within itself, 20% fire dmg on your ring and 20% fire dmg on your necklace won't give you 40% total fire dmg. Your total % of fire dmg will be around 35% (don't remember the exact net gain). They have diminishing return formulated in. The same goes for other modifiers that exist in game. But every single modifier is a direct multiplier to your overall damage.

So it isn't advisable to sacrifice critical stats on other pieces of gears to put ele dmg, since once you factor in diminishing returns your net gain is a lot lower.
11/20/2018 03:05 PMPosted by Melisandre
Your total % of fire dmg will be around 35% (don't remember the exact net gain). They have diminishing return formulated in


This is the first time I have heard this for +% ele dmg. I've never read this anywhere about ele dmg, which is multiplicative, yes; which is awesome. However, not additive with itself?

I know on my char if I have 20% on neck and 20% on bracers my info tab will show 40% for that element. However, CDR is def not additive with itself. On my CDR necro build I'm at the point where if I add 8% my char info sheet only goes up 4% change.
^
yeah, I didn't address the Relative increase of +elemental Damage

However if one wants to know its as follows:

first-20%= 20%
second-20% you will have a net gain of 16.6%
3rd-20% you will have a net gain of 14.2%
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Multiplicative Damage is a term used to describe damage bonuses that are typically not summed with any other bonuses, only within themselves (ie. 15% Fire + 15% Fire = 30% Fire Damage) and will be multiplied against the whole equation individually. These are very powerful bonuses and you should strive to reasonably obtain as many of them as possible.


Elemental dmg is not additive within itself, 20% fire dmg on your ring and 20% fire dmg on your necklace won't give you 40% total fire dmg. Your total % of fire dmg will be around 35% (don't remember the exact net gain). They have diminishing return formulated in. The same goes for other modifiers that exist in game. But every single modifier is a direct multiplier to your overall damage.

So it isn't advisable to sacrifice critical stats on other pieces of gears to put ele dmg, since once you factor in diminishing returns your net gain is a lot lower.

It's a common misunderstanding. 40% fire damage is 40% more damage. But if you already have 20% and then get 20% more then the extra 20% fire damage wont add 20% more damage to what you had...
CHAOS puts it right relatively speaking.
11/20/2018 02:08 PMPosted by PhoenixForce
11/20/2018 01:44 PMPosted by SuperCuddles
So, I think 500% (probably will be nerfed to 400% honestly) is perfectly okay for LoN

It's really not...unless you're using LoN with the main/popular support items that other builds have with existing legendaries that already give huge % dmg multipliers.

LoN used with an unpopular skill/main nuke/rune that is low dmg, and even worse, if it has no support items, is not going to be pushing high GR's. The whole purpose of LoN was to play your way and get away from the main nuke skills that are specific to other sets.


It's really not...are you serious? You don't think a 5200% global character bonus is good enough? While also being able to use several legendaries to build around? You know things like Immortal King are being buffed and even still they'll only be 4000%, right? Sorry, but I've been innovating LoN builds pretty much exclusively with my Diablo playtime (at least since they were changed to what they are now). And I have to say that it's incredible you think it should be buffed past 400%, or 500%, or whatever. You're insane.
11/20/2018 01:46 PMPosted by Stolifiend
A lot of people fail to remember Lon being 800 on ptr once upon a time and people easily soloing 150s


Some items like the spirit barrage weapon were buggy at that time afaik.
11/21/2018 10:36 AMPosted by SuperCuddles
You don't think a 5200% global character bonus is good enough?


What 5200% global bonus are you referring to? LoN with the new patch is 6500% which is a 66x multiplier compared to the previous 14x multiplier. LoN is gaining 4.71x more damage which is roughly 10 GR's higher with no additional damage reduction over the current iteration.
11/21/2018 02:24 PMPosted by Khord
11/21/2018 10:36 AMPosted by SuperCuddles
You don't think a 5200% global character bonus is good enough?


What 5200% global bonus are you referring to? LoN with the new patch is 6500% which is a 66x multiplier compared to the previous 14x multiplier. LoN is gaining 4.71x more damage which is roughly 10 GR's higher with no additional damage reduction over the current iteration.


That's what actually worries me about the set. While I do think I'll be able to build a few odd duck variations of characters that can achieve 90+ GR with the new change, I am not so certain they can survive without a small boost to the damage reduction.

Basically what it comes down to, as a wizard, is I have to choose between the power of convention of elements or a defensive ring. That's an actual problem with this set when it comes to classes that derive a lot of their defense from rings. You have to sacrifice one way or the other.

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