DIABLO IV - What Do We Expect?

General Discussion
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I really wish Diablo 4 can regain the feel lost from D1 and D2 while incorporating things that DID work in D3.

Things I feel did work in D3:
-Unique set effects and legendary effects
-Rerollable stats
-Gambling
-Decision to remove auction house
-Lots of pretty cool monsters
-Some gruesome doodads and destructible debris
-Auto gold and craft material pickup
-Consistent item size instead of 3x2, 2x2, 2x1, etc.
-Unique potions
-Changeable skill variations
-Unique synergies without direct stat boost
-Legendary gems brought back the feel of unique jewels
-Rich environments
-Options available to increase difficulty
-Events are a great concept
-Great artwork and design for the angels and high heavens

Things I feel DID NOT work in D3:
-Enormous numbers for the sake of impressiveness
-Bad scaling of gear and stats
-Set effects egregiously OP
-Disconnected feel from NPCs
-Witch Doctor appearance doesn't match D3 theme
-Wayyy too many normal gems....I never understood why not just have 5 ranks but require maybe 9 of a gem in one rank to achieve next upgrade
-Rares became worthless
-No p-to-p trading
-Primal ancient gear
-Too easy to switch skills around, character built around gear and not stats/skills
-Too many areas and transitions to different areas, making the progression seem too straightforward with too much hand-holding
-Boring item rolls that contribute nothing to the immersion of gameplay such as very low 4.5% critical, +14% damage on a skill, 1.5% stun, etc.....IMO, critical should not be easily available and these rolls in general do not feel good to get even though they are vital to increasing character performance, they make items feel similar or the same
-Item choice made too easy since most determinations are made based on either stat effects, synergy of skills boosted, or mostly straight up stats....overall, itemization is poor and boring
-Too easy to get legendary gear once you reach the torment levels
-Story mode not challenging
-Character's own name does not show up when you are playing with another player
-Far too many difficulties even though option to raise difficulty is good
-Level cap of 70 feels rather strange
-Some monster affixes do not feel appropriate

I'd like to see:
1. A return to the dark and bleak mood fraught with danger that was present in D1 and D2.
2. The return to the music style of D2. D3 soundtrack is nice and my favorite is the Plague Tunnels soundtrack but the style is just different.
3. Some returning monsters from D1 and D2 and D3 instead of mostly-new bestiary, possibly revamped and given distinct abilities. For example: Black Knights, Lightning Demons, Magma Demons, Vipers, Mummies, Vampires, Baboon Demons, Finger Mages, Oblivion Knights, Wretched Mothers, Blood Lords, Death Maulers, Reanimated Hordes.
4. All sorts of weird, mysterious shrine effects.
5. Return to skill trees. There will be a way to reverse skill points, but maybe just in the form of an NPC quest.
6. Have certain NPCs in certain towns do certain things and grant rewards so that there's an incentive to go to different acts like in D2.
7. Gambling option with both gold and collectible drops to further help the gold sink.
8. Sets, legendaries, and good rares should all be competitive.
9. Return of elemental damage effects in D2.
10. Some monsters in high difficulty should have high resistance against certain elements (not immunity).
11. Return of the old all-resistances system where the numbers are understood in %s.
12. Smaller damage numbers and better scaling with level in general.
11/20/2018 09:24 AMPosted by TOPCommander
Here is what I personally want from DIABLO IV:


Reboot

Discard diablo 3 and restart after diablo 2 events.
Diablo 3 mechanics aka cooldown, stat linked towards gear, etc fells much more like an generic mmo
Diablo 3 artstile looks much more like wow
Diablo 3 end game aka only farming for new gear fells much more like an generic mmo
Diablo 3 """progression""" aka leveling = tutorial and the game starting at level cap fells much more like an generic mmo
(...)

D3 dosn't fell like any aRPG that i've played and not like D2. The unique difference between D3 and an generic mmo is that you kill enemies faster...
01/02/2019 10:34 AMPosted by Auragami
I really wish Diablo 4 can regain the feel lost from D1 and D2 while incorporating things that DID work in D3.

Things I feel did work in D3:
-Unique set effects and legendary effects
-Rerollable stats
-Gambling
-Decision to remove auction house
-Lots of pretty cool monsters
-Some gruesome doodads and destructible debris
-Auto gold and craft material pickup
-Consistent item size instead of 3x2, 2x2, 2x1, etc.
-Unique potions
-Changeable skill variations
-Unique synergies without direct stat boost
-Legendary gems brought back the feel of unique jewels
-Rich environments
-Options available to increase difficulty
-Events are a great concept
-Great artwork and design for the angels and high heavens


In my opinion:

Legendary Item Affixes and Set Bonuses were well-intended but did a lot of damage instead. Legendary Affixes and Set Bonuses simply rendered very specific items simply mandatory, which is terrible Item design in a game like Diablo. Sets themselves are awesome, and partial and full-set bonuses are awesome. However, in D3, these bonuses are ridiculously too powerful, which means that sets are mandatory. Any Diablo game that dictates mandatory items is a failure, and D3 failed here very badly.

Rerollable stats are absolutely contra-productive, people just change an item like they want which often takes away the need to keep farming this piece of gear to polish your build. Also Uniques (called legendary items in D3) MUST be static in terms of "Affixes" and only the "affix-range" should have very slight variations from item to item. This is meant to make a legendary (unique) find be consistent across the board. Rare items on the other hand, should be fully randomized, and thus have the potential to be really god-like. (D3 failed miserably in all those things).

Gambling, the way it is in D3, is not gambling, but simply an NPC that sells you all the gear you need, with the occasional chance to just get a trash item instead. Gambling the way it was in D2, is absolutely awesome. In D2, you gambled for rings, amulets and few other very specific items. People did this because Rare jewelry could be truly godlike, while also knowing that Uniques were virtually impossible to be gambled. Last but not least, runewords could not be gambled at all for obvious reasons. In D2, people have to PLAY the game, KNOW the mechanics, and then they will be successful.

Auction-house and Real-Money-Auction-house removal was very good (especially the removal of the RMAH). However, taking away ALL trading was a huge mistake, and whoever is responsible for taking away trading from D3, should be fired. Trading is an incredibly important aspect of community building and gear exchange. Its an absolute MUST-Have in a game like Diablo, as long as it is Item-For-Item ONLY. Real-Money must be kept out of Diablo for obvious reasons.

"Pretty Cool Monsters". Monsters in D3 are all meaningless and unmemorable, and none of this fireworks-fiesta matters at all in D3. Elements do not matter at all, and its all just visual. Its a big failure in D3. Also monsters must not be "cool", they must be threatening, viscous, scary, gory, and really have mechanics that makes them not only feared, but memorable after we defeat them. D2 has countless monster types that freak people out to this day, because they are super dangerous and hard to beat, which makes them memorable (D2 Examples: All Bosses, Claw-vipers, Undead-Souls, Fetishes, Beatles etc.)

Auto-Pickup Is convenient on first glance yes, but it was a mistake to implement it in D3. IMO: they should have made gold less common and when it drops, it should be in bigger piles, along with giving us clear incentives to pick up gold, or even farm gold specifically. In D3, autopickup is understandable, but thats because TOO MUCH LOOT is dropping left and right. its just pathetic how much loot drops in D3. So much Garbage! D4 should have much less loot dropping. D3 has so much loot dropping, that individual loot drops are less important, and thus all of it seems all like "a lot of crap".

"Consistent Item Size" was and still is bad IMO. Doesn't make sense that a chest armor is as big as a helmet etc. Having varying sizes for varying items and item-types makes loot more interesting and diverse in terms of visuals and perception. Standardizing Item-sizes takes away from that and the benefits of "neatness" is not enough to sacrifice visual-uniqueness and a proper representation of an item's size from within the "real world".

Changeable Skills are BAD IMO. Builds should have permanence to it, with the option to correct or change builds, if the player puts in an effort to do so by farming stuff to craft re-spec tokens or "un-do Skill-Points". D3 allows everyone to change all the skills on the fly, which makes your "Doll" (Character) nothing special and not memorable at all. Big failure in D3.

Option to increase difficulty is bad. The game should be designed in a way where all players meet eventually in a final difficulty. Having 13+ Difficulties in D3 is a huge design flaw for obvious reasons. The first couple difficulties should be either very few like in D2 (Normal-Nightmare-Hell and requiring 3 play-throughs before the player arrives in the final difficulty and can start item farming and XP grinding to levelup and develop a skill tree), or they follow a "linear" difficulty design from act 1 to act 10 or similar (like POE today). Once the player finishes the last act, All acts should become as hard or harder than the final act the player completed and remain at that difficulty across the board from then on. Individual areas within the game should still exist that appear very dangerous and difficult than the "average remaining world".

Rich Environments - D3 has not a single "Rich environment". Its all either static world (adventure mode - where bounties happen), or Tunnels from beginning to end (where rifts/grifts happen). D3 has probably the worst "World-Design" out of all ARPGs currently on the market.
In therms of memorable monsters, i believe that D1 have the best. Skeleton King, Butcher, Lazarus, etc.

In therms of RPG mechanics and character progression, i believe that D1 wins in immersion and D2 in "specialization", an poison and an bone necro(same skill tree) are much more different than 2 lv 25 sorcerer on D1. D3 have no character progression.

In therms of itemization, the best game in ballance D1, D2 have some problems mainly with torches and +skill gear allowing you to be ridiculous powerful, but have more cool stuff to farm for aka sets who have unique auras, complex runewords, etc; and nothing broken as D3. Where an almost full set is not even a fraction of a full set.

I honestly don't know if D1 or D2 is better. I hoppe that D4 returns to his roots, so i can be decided between d1,d2 or d4.
Actual meaningful endgame:

Rifts may work -- but add a story to the progression, and have a non-random progressive mode.
Imagine a 200 maps long sequence of slowly, slowly more challenging rifts, each with unique challenges and monster types, with different difficulties and lengths.

A place with a beginning, and an end -- but an end that is months away, and with unique progress for each character.

...

And for goodness sake:
Don't have that place be the place where you farm your gear most effectively.

Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 both did one thing horribly wrong:
Having your characters level up and grind for gear AFTER you've defeated the final boss in the game.

Sure, have players beat the story mode before they can start the story-rift -- but don't let the story-rift levels 190-200 be THE place to farm gear.

Different levels could in some cases require different solutions.
Some are timed.
Some have immune or resistant monsters.
Some have monsters that only deal two damage types, but deal a lot of damage of those types.
Some only have elite monsters.
Some have elite monsters with the same preset affxies.
Some are boss-rifts, with only bosses and their minions.
we're probably not gonna get what we want but it'd be difficult to make something worse than d3 imo
01/02/2019 03:54 PMPosted by SuperduperJW
we're probably not gonna get what we want but it'd be difficult to make something worse than d3 imo


What about D3 with P2W mechanics? See everything can become worse...
@TopCommander

Some points were addressed in the segment following the first in my post. I like some of your suggestions, though.

However...

Legendary items and sets - While I do agree they are OP, I think their special effects contribute a lot to them actually feeling "unique." In D1, this was purely dictated by some very weird combo of stats, which I honestly did not find very memorable. D2 did it better with visual effects while wearing complete sets and granting characters access to certain skills in addition to certain items having unique attributes, but those aforementioned items felt memorable because those attributes were impossible or hard to get on other items. Example: Damage reduce %. You would need to get Stormshield, Shaftstop, String of Ears, etc. This, to me, is an acceptable method to make uniques actually feel unique.

Rerollable stats - I don't think it's necessary counterproductive. It only is so when rerolling is EASY. I don't see an issue with perhaps allowing a certain stat to be re-rolled only by using a special consumable with a low drop rate, for instance. Paying 10k gold and just re-rolling WOULD be bad, though.

Gambling - A rather easy fix by just raising gambling costs and/or reducing the chance to get a good item. A big part of why gambling was good in D2 was because good rares were competitive. You didn't do it just to get sets and uniques. I addressed this particular point in my post.

Auction House - Agreed 100%. I addressed player trading in my post.

Monsters - Largely subjective, but there are certain monsters I personally find memorable despite D3's flaws that others might not. I like the returning monsters, such as the Fallen, the Shamans, Giant Spiders, and Succubi as well. My list of D3-exclusive monsters includes: Skeletal Summoners, Wood Wraiths, Khazra Shamans, Desert Wasps, Corrupted Angel, Cultists, Dark Berserkers, Phasebeasts, etc.

Auto-Pickup - Admittedly, I think you're right. Fewer piles of much higher amounts of gold sounds reasonable. Also my dislike for D3's artificially-inflated numbers applies here. People should not be making billions of gold easily. Or doing billions of damage. Just remove a few 0s.

Consistent Item Size - Personally, this did not impact immersiveness for me. Playing inventory tetris when you're trying to pick up a 3x2 item was a laborious chore and I don't miss it.

Changeable Skills - I addressed skills being TOO EASY to change in my post. I don't think skills should be easily changed as you said, but the option should nonetheless remain. But players should have to work for it.

Options to Increase Difficulty - Blizzard literally did this just to appease to people who wanted more difficulty. I addressed the overwhelming number of difficulties, though, in my post. It makes more sense to have maybe 5 total or something. Easy (monsters are a few levels lower than you), Normal (monsters are your level), Nightmare (monsters are X levels higher than you and gain resistances and damage), Hell (more monster levels than NM with higher resistance and damage), Torment (top absolute difficulty that's hard even with end-game gear). Obviously, difficulties should affect drops, so more difficulty means more rewards. But Hell should offer the top rewards, Torment just has a better drop rate. That way, people don't feel excluded when they aren't able to get gear only available in Torment or something.

Rich Environment - The environmental design is better than D1 and D2 while retaining the same concept of randomly generated dungeons. I think people feel the environment is not rich is because the boss fights are not memorable, which is a different, but glaring, issue. Destructible debris, doors and doodads actually to scale, chopped up corpses, etc. Mind you, I mean richness in the environment strictly, not MOOD or ATMOSPHERE. Overall, the colors could be darker but I am referring to layouts and the surrounding characteristics in the doodads. I should have made myself more clear.
I want Blizzard to get straight for the jugular on POE with D4. Blow me away with complexity and build depth, make the game world unforgiving, dark, and disturbing. Screw the multi million dollar cutscenes and give me quality voice overs and a solid story peppered throughout the world but never in full form, to allow for theorycrafting the lore. Do it all with top of the line graphics and polish blizzard is known for.

I expect less however, and i expect them to take forever and a half to get anything to market. I expect hardcore seasons to be nothing more than a cake walk anyone can run, with boring mechanics and gimmicks. I expect a story thats boring but saved by overly produced cutscenes that i end up skipping through after the first time. I expect a solid endgame farming experience that leaves me wanting more and heading over to another game for that fix.

At least i know the combat and gameplay will be good, they get that right with D3 in a very good way.
01/02/2019 04:24 PMPosted by Auragami
te a lot to them actually feeling "unique." In D1, this was purely dictated by some very weird combo of stats, which I honestly did not find very memorable. D2 did it better with visual effects while wearing complete sets and granting characters access to certain skills in addition to certain items having unique attributes, but those aforementioned items felt memorable because those attributes were impossible or hard to get on other items.


Inflate your damage, doesn't make any item fell unique.

The cool effects on runewords on D2LOD are really much more unique than just damage inflation. For example, be able to cast teleport is amazing, be able to cast amplify damage can be insanely good as a barbarian or as a wind druid, etc

01/02/2019 04:24 PMPosted by Auragami
Paying 10k gold and just re-rolling WOULD be bad, though.


Because gold means nothing on D3... 10K gold should't be something easy obtained(d2 have this mistake too)

01/02/2019 04:24 PMPosted by Auragami
You didn't do it just to get sets and uniques. I addressed this particular point in my post


And a well rolled rare should be able to be better than a set item. This brings much more gear diversity.

01/02/2019 04:24 PMPosted by Auragami
Blizzard literally did this just to appease to people who wanted more difficulty. I addressed the overwhelming number of difficulties, though, in my post. It makes more sense to have maybe 5 total or something. Easy (monsters are a few levels lower than you), Normal (monsters are your level), Nightmare (monsters are X levels higher than you and gain resistances and damage), Hell (more monster levels than NM with higher resistance and damage), Torment (top absolute difficulty that's hard even with end-game gear). Obviously, difficulties should affect drops, so more difficulty means more rewards. But Hell should offer the top rewards, Torment just has a better drop rate. That way, people don't feel excluded when they aren't able to get gear only available in Torment or something.


Difficulty should be more than just more hp/more damage.

Uniques should spawn more, immune should spawm more, they should play smart, in a better composition, more moves, more curses to cast, etc
I expect flight. It may be after a year of "clean your room" quests. It may be taken away repeatedly. It may be significantly delayed. I just want flight.
01/03/2019 07:24 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
01/02/2019 04:24 PMPosted by Auragami
te a lot to them actually feeling "unique." In D1, this was purely dictated by some very weird combo of stats, which I honestly did not find very memorable. D2 did it better with visual effects while wearing complete sets and granting characters access to certain skills in addition to certain items having unique attributes, but those aforementioned items felt memorable because those attributes were impossible or hard to get on other items.


Inflate your damage, doesn't make any item fell unique.

The cool effects on runewords on D2LOD are really much more unique than just damage inflation. For example, be able to cast teleport is amazing, be able to cast amplify damage can be insanely good as a barbarian or as a wind druid, etc

01/02/2019 04:24 PMPosted by Auragami
Paying 10k gold and just re-rolling WOULD be bad, though.


Because gold means nothing on D3... 10K gold should't be something easy obtained(d2 have this mistake too)

01/02/2019 04:24 PMPosted by Auragami
You didn't do it just to get sets and uniques. I addressed this particular point in my post


And a well rolled rare should be able to be better than a set item. This brings much more gear diversity.

01/02/2019 04:24 PMPosted by Auragami
Blizzard literally did this just to appease to people who wanted more difficulty. I addressed the overwhelming number of difficulties, though, in my post. It makes more sense to have maybe 5 total or something. Easy (monsters are a few levels lower than you), Normal (monsters are your level), Nightmare (monsters are X levels higher than you and gain resistances and damage), Hell (more monster levels than NM with higher resistance and damage), Torment (top absolute difficulty that's hard even with end-game gear). Obviously, difficulties should affect drops, so more difficulty means more rewards. But Hell should offer the top rewards, Torment just has a better drop rate. That way, people don't feel excluded when they aren't able to get gear only available in Torment or something.


Difficulty should be more than just more hp/more damage.

Uniques should spawn more, immune should spawm more, they should play smart, in a better composition, more moves, more curses to cast, etc

I talked about damage inflation and stated I do not like it, preferring effects such as granting unique attributes, stats, or access to certain otherwise-unavailable skills.

Rares are limited by virtue of only having raw stats and/or a combination of good stats. Stat-wise, I do agree that great rares should be able to compete with stats of set or legendary items, but rares will never have the unique attributes and effects that set legendary and set items apart. On an unrelated note, I'm still not used to calling uniques legendaries. I want to just call them uniques again.

Example:
I'll just make up three similar items in the same categories and use D2 style stats to illustrate just for a general illustrative purpose.
Set Item - Spear of Lycander: 200% enhanced damage, 30% attack speed, deals 1-400 holy damage (6 piece set effect grants +50 to all stats, 30% critical strike chance for 2x damage, +2 to all skills, 30% evasion, reduce mana cost of all skills by 30%, access to skill: Light Prison - Traps enemies in a target area for 10 seconds and increase damage they take by 20%)

Unique Item - Solarion, Spear of Valor: 220% enhanced damage, 50% attack speed, attacks deal 100-200 fire, lightning, and holy damage, attacks have 10% chance to summon two angelic warriors to follow you and attack foes automatically.

Good Rare Item - Brimstone Lance: 250% enhanced damage, +30 strength, +30 dexterity, 40% attack speed, +30% damage vs demons, 1 socket

For set items, the philosophy should be to make each piece decent but not necessarily an end-game stand-alone piece. Gaining the set bonuses make up for their lack of prime end-game stats. Uniques/legendaries ought to have strange and powerful effects in addition to pretty good stats, allowing a fully-unique geared character to compete with one focusing on sets. Rares should be highly randomized with the best rolls being able to outdo unique/legendary gear in the stats department so they can be viable when you consider their lack of effects.

Yes, I think unique monsters should spawn in higher difficulties with more affixes, but I would not give them more skills per se. It's the combination of affixes which makes them deadly, just like in D2 and D3. I'm sort of split on immunities. If the game allows characters to realistically overcome immunities with wise gameplay, maybe. I'm leaning toward high resistance for certain elements rather than outright immunity. Act bosses should not have immunities, maybe all-around high resists.
@Auragami, what i like about D2 is that one item can be very useful for a build and useless for another. Bone and Poison necro uses the same skill tree but a +50% casting speed rare will be useless for the poison necro and a huge buff for the bone necro.

In fact a set item thanks to a bug can make my bone necro weaker by reducing a lot my casting speed > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EULkd7qP3B8

Legendary items should be as the name suggests legendary. Everyone having his stash fulfilled with then is awful. And not only unique effects, but i believe that items should chance how some skills work. For example "increased projectile speed" for arrows or projectile spells will be amazing.
01/02/2019 03:20 PMPosted by Frostraven
Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 both did one thing horribly wrong:
Having your characters level up and grind for gear AFTER you've defeated the final boss in the game.


This really made me like D1 like hell (no pun intended)
I think I never reached Diablo, at the end of the game, but I liked that I needed to go lower everytime to get something better, and I got it each new level below. That things keep me going and going and I had a lot of fun. With restarting the game I had a good feeling going even fast down the early levels till reaching the point I could not pass yet.

I got tired of farming Baal at D2 for xp.
I only play D3 because of season portrait and because I still believe this game will be good. (c'mon, I pray for a new expansion before D4)

I feel really sad when I think D4 is in works but if they release anything the sales from console will drop.
ActivisionBlizzard is going to make D4 a microtransaction based game. Given the minutia and extreme detail in terms of crafting, leveling and resources involved there are going to be costing you $$$$$ at every turn. If it is in anyway like D3 in China I wouldn't want this game. Also you are probably going to pay a hefty price just to purchase the game and get rip off along the way for the forseeable future as you continue playing.

It is going to be a time sinking ripoff.
Dyer Wolfe a.k.a. Druid
I just discovered the Torchlight series, created by many of the old Blizzard staff who created Diablo 1 and 2. So far its great. So what I expect is that I'll keep playing this. Waiting for Torchlight Frontiers to release.
A cash shop.
Considering that wow(the most profitable bliz IP) is full of bugs > https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/why-this-expansion-is-full-of-bugs/64988

I really don't expect anything from D4. Is more likely to have a D4 battle royale or another stupid idea than a D4 who will be closer to his roots.

I never understood. How a Dark Fantasy aRPG becomed an cartoon action gear based game?
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20770547377?page=3#post-41

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