Wizard RGK specs

Wizard
I didn't want to keep hijacking another topic, so I'm just making a separate one for just talking about wiz (hypothetical) RGK specs.

I finished minmaxing (kind of) a TalVyr RGK spec, based on deathwish and doing damage outside of archon:

https://ptr.d3planner.com/103022439

Simulated DPS is about 33T (I have it in the planner if you want to take a look), and all of the rolls are basically about as minmaxed as I could think of in the 5-15 mins it took for me to do them. This doesn't have the newest patch in, so the actual live server damage will be 4x that, so about 132T dps on PTR. No idea how if at all this compares to DH RGK in its current state.

Edit, actually I had the distance set wrong. Ideal distance is 50 yards for max zeis bonus, as in this sim:
https://ptr.d3planner.com/330523672

Increases damage to 36T or 144T after the patch, whoops.

Edit2: Actually I forgot to include disintegration beam in the simulator at all, so you spend half the time not even stacking stricken. Whoops.
https://ptr.d3planner.com/874960824
61T before patch, 264T DPS after.

Takeaways:
- RCR and IAS need to be balanced in order to keep channeling out of archon (which is why I rolled the amulet flat damage). Astral presence is necessary, otherwise damage drops significantly. The rolls need to be roughly in the ratio I have them above.

- Cooldown is enough for an exactly 28 seconds cooldown on archon. Yes you read that right, I'm literally wasting 2 CoE cycles just so the build can always go into archon on fire and have 2 lightning cycles for deathwish to work with with the swami bonus up.

- Those IAS rolls are all needed in order to reach that breakpoint on static discharge. Without it, damage drops a lot.

I also tried to do simulators for an archon centric spec (one that always goes into archon on lightning instead), and also an archon hybrid spec (mix of the two, with gogok), but the issue is that it looks like d3planner is treating the archon beam as a channeled ability, so it gets deathwish damage. I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. If I replace deathwish with anything else for these specs, the damage drops down to trash (no literally trash).

If you've got ideas or ways to minmax this further or perhaps just a totally different spec, just use this topic.
I kept in 4 out-of-archon spells you could use to keep tals up easily, but dundee suggested dropping one so I did. If you drop that, you can then run magic weapon and drop astral presence.

https://ptr.d3planner.com/677862920
76T dps, 304T dps after patch.

Think this might be about as high as it getting, no idea how that compares to impale dh or even necro.

Also you'd do a little more damage than this when factoring in that normally the beam would be lightning element so you could get a few MH procs while in archon. I had to make it another element in order to make the simulator stop counting it as a channeling spell and messing with the damage.
11/29/2018 04:22 PMPosted by StoleOwnCar
Those IAS rolls are all needed in order to reach that breakpoint on static discharge. Without it, damage drops a lot.

Going to be a big issue with Tal / Vyr, so many affixes lost to attack speed. EDIT: Ah, forgot about Tal's chest. This helps make it up some.

Thanks for the post, I'll see what I can put together as well. Group isn't my focus but hey, might be fun.
Okay, here's my first attempt. Two builds listed on the planner.

  • https://ptr.d3planner.com/882802324

The first is Vyr MH Deathwish, optimized CDR with Leoric's in cube and CDR on amulet, gives us enough CDR for consistent CoE cycle, as well as slightly longer swami overlap (without having to swap in Gogok).

My hope is that if we sync it up right, we'll have lightning CoE during swami overlap, which should do very heavy damage if Paralysis / MH proc at that point.

Pig sticker for higher base AS / Quicker stacking. While this will prefer beast and human RGs in the ultimate, I feel it's just the better option for those higher stack counts and getting to higher BPs quicker.

Couldn't think of anything better than the AS from the lacuni bracers. Was considering black hole with strongarms for the debuff, but I think the consistency of MW:Conduit and extra AS might be preferred here, especially if we're still casting and keeping up EB/OID.

OID is great here for retaining toughness. Still has teleport outside of archon for mobility.

There is the potential to swap Storm armor out if resource is adequate otherwise, you could go pinpoint barrier for example, get some extra damage and armor, or the aforementioned black hole / strongarms combo in this slot.

----

The second is arguably a worse idea, but still pretty cool. It's still a Vyr MH deathwish build, but now hybrid with molten impact meteor. We slot Nilfur's, Grand Vizier, Etched Sigil and place Molten impact on the bar. Lower base AS weapon is required here, so we go with AS amulet, slightly lower CDR base as well. More difficult to build stacks with this build, but gets supplemented by the channeling damage from meteor.

A big issue here will be the defense. Kind of feel this build will be dying all over the rift.
11/29/2018 09:54 PMPosted by StoleOwnCar
I kept in 4 out-of-archon spells you could use to keep tals up easily, but dundee suggested dropping one so I did. If you drop that, you can then run magic weapon and drop astral presence.

https://ptr.d3planner.com/677862920

Archon heavily benefits from having Unstable anomaly as the last passive if you can fit it in, due to the stacking mechanics. Dying is a larger damage loss, especially than the damage you'd get from Glass Cannon. I feel that's going to be a poor choice comparatively, even with having swapped out Taeguk for Zei (less dilution).
I did try making a pure Vyrs melee variant of the Tals build that I had going, but it was simply much weaker.
https://ptr.d3planner.com/232679775

The huge issue with Vyrs is that doing Swami/Fazula doesn't do anything special for it. It's just kind of expected. The set gives additive bonuses to archon stacks instead of multiplicative ones, which means that 50 Swami stacks on Tals means a LOT more than 100-150 swami stacks on Vyrs... especially with the ridiculous damage multiplier they've applied to it this patch. Well, but you already know that. I think that an archon-centric Vyrs spec with overlap will be more of a solo build than a group build for this patch, unless we can find some way to do some special stuff.

I still haven't really tried testing TalVyr's swami overlap archon MH damage, because I can't with how d3planner has it functioning as a Deathwish ability. I do wonder how that will do. Probably not favorably though as it's basically twice the damage and some attack speed but in exchange loses 4x bonus from deathwish. Of course there's the idea of trying to transform while channeling, into the lightning cycle, and having double stack archon briefly while deathwish carryover bonus is still active, and seeing if you get any MH procs. Bit risky though...

11/30/2018 04:07 AMPosted by Cratic

Archon heavily benefits from having Unstable anomaly as the last passive if you can fit it in, due to the stacking mechanics. Dying is a larger damage loss, especially than the damage you'd get from Glass Cannon. I feel that's going to be a poor choice comparatively, even with having swapped out Taeguk for Zei (less dilution).


Most RGKs at the moment do not run a cheat death passive. Generally with full support from barb and monk, dying should not be an issue, especially since I've managed to fit Karini into the build (so with all of the AR, this should be fairly tanky against magic damage, which, aside from a few RGs, is most of the damage you're going to be taking). Either way, Unwavering Will can be easily swapped in for Glass Cannon, and provides a bit less damage (~4-5%), exchange for a lot of toughness.

One thing I was kind of discussing yesterday is that I was basically wondering if Etched Sigil was kind of buggy when applied to Hydra. Not sure if it's been tested, but I wonder if Etched increases the damage of Hydras' MH proc because they count as an arcane spender themselves. It would kind of be a buggy interaction that shouldn't work like that, but still something to test nonetheless, though it's still probably not viable.
11/30/2018 08:31 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
nwavering Will can be easily swapped in for Glass Cannon, and provides a bit less damage (~4-5%), exchange for a lot of toughness

UW would be a better fit, yes, even though I'd likely still run with the UA. Fits better, thanks. I'll definitely consider this swap for my RGK build as a possible alternate if I get more comfortable with a group.
11/30/2018 08:31 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
Etched increases the damage of Hydras' MH proc because they count as an arcane spender themselves. It would kind of be a buggy interaction that shouldn't work like that, but still something to test nonetheless, though it's still probably not viable.

Hmm, that is something to test! I seem to remember the ES proc's hydra cannot proc MH though, so in the very least it would be very annoying to keep up, as you'd always have to recast hydra after your ES cast hydra.

On top of that, the multiplier from ES doesn't even make up for the skill damage multi that was removed in 2.6.1, so hydra would still be weaker than it used to be even if it does work. Then again, we do have set buffs and Grandeur. With deathwish that might work out. Look forward to your results!
11/30/2018 08:31 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
The huge issue with Vyrs is that doing Swami/Fazula doesn't do anything special for it. It's just kind of expected. The set gives additive bonuses to archon stacks instead of multiplicative ones, which means that 50 Swami stacks on Tals means a LOT more than 100-150 swami stacks on Vyrs... especially with the ridiculous damage multiplier they've applied to it this patch. Well, but you already know that. I think that an archon-centric Vyrs spec with overlap will be more of a solo build than a group build for this patch, unless we can find some way to do some special stuff.

Yes, good points, but at the same time, it's a lot harder for Tal / Vyr to stack up. You'd basically have to have an RG with adds to get higher stack count, and this takes away from your ability to stack stricken as fast on the RG (though may give some nice oculus spawns). My preference for Vyr is more because I feel it can function more reliably as an RGK, especially with the higher attack speed and stacking breakpoints that the set can achieve, including stacking stricken a bit faster.

Tal/Vyr also pretty much forces you to run the wand or sword, meaning you need even more AS on gear to make up for it. It feels like you simply run out of available affix slots for CDR at that point, and can't achieve quite what Vyr's can.

I feel Fazula still functions well on Vyr in this manner, helping to keep your attack speed breakpoints more manageable.

-----

Another item I forgot to consider is Mantle of channeling in the attempted Vyr RGK build I linked. While this would be a good addition, I kind of feel having the Leoric's with the consistent CoE cycle is valued higher, though if having major issues with toughness for whatever reason, you could certainly swap the Karini back in with Mantle cubed.

----

By the way, good discussion so far Stole. =)
Hmm, that is something to test! I seem to remember the ES proc's hydra cannot proc MH though, so in the very least it would be very annoying to keep up, as you'd always have to recast hydra after your ES cast hydra.


Yeah that part might make it very hard to use, I agree. Casting cold rune you might at least never run out of mana, but you will need to keep up the manually cast hydra.

11/30/2018 03:55 PMPosted by Cratic
Yes, good points, but at the same time, it's a lot harder for Tal / Vyr to stack up. You'd basically have to have an RG with adds to get higher stack count, and this takes away from your ability to stack stricken as fast on the RG (though may give some nice oculus spawns). My preference for Vyr is more because I feel it can function more reliably as an RGK, especially with the higher attack speed and stacking breakpoints that the set can achieve, including stacking stricken a bit faster.


The thing is I made that build while having it in mind that you would ever only really achieve 50 stacks. Like there wasn't even the idea of going at the RG with more of them. Although theoretically (and in practice, really) it is possible to at least start the RG fight with more stacks as all you would have to do is transform on fire, sometime before your friendly pack wizard nuked about 30 mobs, spawning the RG (you have about 20 seconds of leeway, so not exactly a hard goal to accomplish by any measure of the word). And then you'd have ~80 for your first cycle.

Anyway, 50 swami stacks is basically a 4x multiplier for tals. With a 12000% set bonus, that's a total of a 48000% multiplier. As you know, Vyrs gets 100% per stack, but it's additive with swami stack damage. Just doing some basic math, in order to match multipliers with talvyr, Vyr needs 480 stacks. As you also know, that's not possible. Without overlap, I clocked my pure Vyr variant as clocking in at just 120-ish stacks when coming out of archon. That translates into a 12000 set bonus after the buff. You also get endless walk, so 24000, and then you should be able to get a higher breakpoint on AT. Theoretically this should cause it to kind of break even a bit, but for some reason it doesn't even reach the pre-buff Tals damage value. I'm not sure where the discrepancy is.

11/30/2018 03:57 AMPosted by Cratic
A big issue here will be the defense. Kind of feel this build will be dying all over the rift.


Vyrs is actually squishier than VyrTals because it can't even fit in Karini, but actually believe it or not the RGK dying like crazy during the rift is totally normal. No one cares. You're just there to be a body pull meatbag.
Hah. Looks like I was too hopeful. Reading on the d3planner issues thread on github, looks like the new values for Tal were already implemented, just not properly showing on the item due to cache issues. Silly me.

So 76T dps is actually the final number. I pulled up a random DH profile someone had up, and just running a simple simulator, DH simulated out to well over 2kT DPS on the RG.

Yeaaaaaah if these numbers are right, Wizard doesn't even tickle DH. Our only hope for salvation is the power of the Hydra, but the Hydra has been nerfed to crap. So there's no hope, unless the numbers are wrong. Lol.

I still want to try it because I have most of the gear, but I'm not hopeful.
I think wizard still has something to offer as far as RGK. We can still hit absurdly high APS, even though it may be less base damage, I feel wizard can stack stricken better than a DH. They both have desync from different sources (archon blast, Disintegration Wave, AT:SD, etc. / and for DH: Vengeance), but wizard can pull ahead with the high AS, it just depends on the length of the RG fight.

That said, Invoker doesn't have this problem so much, and can also achieve very quick stricken stacking. Necromancer is also still strong with bringing frailty.

I feel if you time it right (or just get lucky) with your rift clear kill cycles, you can empower Vyr or Tal/Vyr quite a bit more via the on-kill stacks, which would increase their ability to finish off Elites during the rift.

Question is more of if that's enough to justify placement (in combination with the quite good stricken stacking) vs such strong up front damage from an shadow's impale DH, or the utility and possibly pull that would come from an Invoker crusader.

I kind of feel that DH or Crusader would be dying less often than a Wizard or Necromancer in a group speed or high GR push setting, but I may be mistaken in this.
12/06/2018 10:53 AMPosted by Cratic
I think wizard still has something to offer as far as RGK. We can still hit absurdly high APS, even though it may be less base damage, I feel wizard can stack stricken better than a DH. They both have desync from different sources (archon blast, Disintegration Wave, AT:SD, etc. / and for DH: Vengeance), but wizard can pull ahead with the high AS, it just depends on the length of the RG fight.

That said, Invoker doesn't have this problem so much, and can also achieve very quick stricken stacking. Necromancer is also still strong with bringing frailty.

I feel if you time it right (or just get lucky) with your rift clear kill cycles, you can empower Vyr or Tal/Vyr quite a bit more via the on-kill stacks, which would increase their ability to finish off Elites during the rift.

Question is more of if that's enough to justify placement (in combination with the quite good stricken stacking) vs such strong up front damage from an shadow's impale DH, or the utility and possibly pull that would come from an Invoker crusader.

I kind of feel that DH or Crusader would be dying less often than a Wizard or Necromancer in a group speed or high GR push setting, but I may be mistaken in this.


It’s true wizard can get super high AS and can stack stricken well. With Vyrs, Shame, Fragment, Slow Time, etc, Spectral Blade can hit something like 12 APS. It’s hilariously fast, but base dmg of Spectral Blade is trash compared to heavy hitters like impale or corpse lance. Blade also doesn’t proc MH nearly as well as static or beam.

Not sure if Hack truly applies on “every attack,” in other words if SPectral Blade hits at 12 APS does Hack proc all 12 times? Could Hack be a significant damage source with super high AS?

Even if we got our stricken multi to 1000% it would probably fall behind other rgks. In current patch gameplay footage, Pest Necro corpse lances hit for 500T per lance after 2m of stricken stacking. I’ve seen Crus RGK get over 1kT per hit after 3m of stacking. Command skeleton has low base dmg but it works due to the compounding nature of stricken + bone ringer giving 2 growing multipliers over the course of the fight.

I don’t know how high the current patch Vyr MH Static Discharge Deathwish RGK has been pushed in 4m, I took it to about 112 early in the patch and it was way behind Necro, took 2-3 cycles to kill the RG where a decent Necro would one-shot it in about 5 seconds. Assuming it could be currently taken to 115, the proposed buffs could boost a TalVyr version by X GR levels, maybe into into mid-120s?
Well, all hope is technically not lost. d3planner has been wrong many times in the past, due to something that it was simulating incorrectly. So I do plan to still test this out on the server when the patch goes live (or if PTR comes back). The only issue is that I won't be able to use the (stupid, stupid, stupid idea Blizzard) season-only RoRG buff on NS to test it with my current gear, so I'll be running ultra squishy since I can't fit in Karini. It's gonna be a huge pain in the butt.

12/06/2018 10:53 AMPosted by Cratic
I kind of feel that DH or Crusader would be dying less often than a Wizard or Necromancer in a group speed or high GR push setting, but I may be mistaken in this.


Depends on their paragon, but you would be surprised by how squishy DH is, on RGK spec. Unlike Necromancer, it doesn't even provide any real party utility, either. Just increases attack by a bit during familiar. That's why I was thinking the best way for them to abuse RoRG would actually be to run nemesis and cube strongarms (or vice versa).

I actually have a shadowplay vid of (the last 10 minutes of; I forgot to set it up properly) our 3p 132 run in PTR, so you can watch Stan die some. And this is a really good player, by the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnyPIx6rbuU

Obviously some of that was because of me being stupid because I haven't actually played this game much lately, and I took a decent sized hiatus before I even started again... but still. It's pretty squishy to elemental damage, and the RG charging him literally oneshot him.

On the other hand you can see Tals is pretty tanky, and I have a feeling it will be much tankier than DH rgk, especially to elemental damage. The trick is that it raises base resists, which means that all of those stacks of damage reduction actually mean more. We found it to actually be much tankier than Firebirds in 2p, completing a 128 run pretty easily, with barely any deaths.

Bit of a tangent, but one other thing you'll note is how much easier it is to speed burn trash with Tals. Firebirds required ignition, and the damage ticked down big time as the mobs died, if you didn't have an elite nearby. Tals can just burn and go. Much, much better playstyle. Can't be overstated.
Thanks for the video, and thanks for correcting me on the DH. I think you're right about DH and wizard. Wizard in the least might survive the RG charge (perhaps at very low HP after that though).

So DH is squishier. How's Necro compare to Tal or Vyr wizard defensively? I've been out of the 3p/4p game for a awhile now.

That rift didn't help either. Frozen / arcane with Lacuni Prowler's / ghosts / etc... Looks pretty harsh.

Glad you're loving the Tal's variation much more though! Tal's will be useful for engaging / progressing on those rifts that happen to spawn the elites at the very end, but dump a ton of trash in the middle. You can opt now to simply burn the trash up and go on to the next level.
12/06/2018 10:57 PMPosted by StoleOwnCar
The only issue is that I won't be able to use the (stupid, stupid, stupid idea Blizzard) season-only RoRG buff on NS to test it with my current gear

This will be holding back my testing for a few builds as well. There are some, mostly nephalem rifting type builds I can test in the non-season (if they allow 2.6.4 non season before season start), and a few off-meta type push builds where the bonus won't affect too much, but the ones we really want to test usually require the Grandeur bonus. Drawbacks of such a short PTR.

Hey at least S16 will be several months long. That'll give more than enough time to test it right? right?? Oh, wait, we'll have to farm the gear up first. =)

<<---If S16 start = 2.6.4 patch live date, it'll be a bad situation for content and build creators, having to decide between testing builds on non-season or starting season when everyone else does.

That being said, I am glad they are keeping the bonus off of NS this time around. Gives us a baseline of where the sets are without the bonus (cause that's all they tested with on the PTR!!).
12/07/2018 04:03 AMPosted by Cratic
Hey at least S16 will be several months long. That'll give more than enough time to test it right? right?? Oh, wait, we'll have to farm the gear up first. =)


Did you have a chance to test this? if not I might do a test in 1-2 week timeframe.

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