How a Dark Fantasy aRPG becomed an cartoon...?

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How a Dark Fantasy aRPG becomed an cartoon action gear based game?

Why they decided to change diablo, from action focused role playing game into an gear playing game? With a lot of generic mmo mechanics such as cooldowns, stats linked towards gear, monk punches and necro minions linked towards how big and sharp the axe is, game starting at level cap, etc??? This mechanics really kills the immersion and sense of progression.

Start with an single weak skeleton and gradually investing more into the skill to have more and more powerful monsters until you get an undead army is much more interesting than from start to the end having 7 skeletons scaling with how big and sharp your axe is.

As TopCommander said on this thread https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20769770037?page=1


Absolute NO-GO for D4:

NO Cooldowns (Ridiculous spells that deal 10'000x your regular damage must NOT exist to begin with)

NO Developer dictated Builds and gear designed by the devs to be mandatory for the Developer-Dicated-Builds etc. (aka NO D3-Itemization BS)

NO Teddy-Bears, Unicorns, Cartoon-Art-Style, and catastrophically misplaced attempts at humor etc.

NO Disney-Type Villains that have mental abilities of 3-year-olds (D3's Asmodan and all others...)
(...)

[/quote]

I will not post all of his "no go" since i encourage you to check his thread. He said everything about Diablo...

Everyone knows that this changes are really awful. Any other isometric aRPG on the market(poe/gd/etc) fells much more diablo like than d3. I just wanna understand what leaded bliz to think that people play diablo expecting generic mobile mmo-like mechanics and cartoonish graphics???

Hell, you don't even play a character since every lv 70 of the same class char is a clone. You play the gear. The character is just a way to use the gear....
Majority of Diablo 3 items/legendary effects are based right off items from World of Warcraft.
Cooldowns and short timed buffs/debuffs are also based off WoW.

It's rather lazy game design.
Even the stupid pink spinning arcane laser beams that some elites have are based off a section of the Deadmines dungeon in WoW.

Over the past few years the graphics updates to WoW have also been quite cartoony, imo. The new character models for each race are more bubbly-looking and googly/wide-eyed. Imo, it's all an attempt to make the game attractive to younger audience as they will be a paying customer for years. Whereas, someone who is older may not be interested in playing for that long.

I really hope they stay true to their D4 mantra of "Embrace the Darkness" pillar of design; and I swear it better not be an MMO as some Youtube commentators have speculated on. They want to make money off games so I won't even be surprised if D4 is an MMO. I just wont pay/play it.
To be honest I do not have an issue with cooldowns on skills. Just not cooldowns exceeding 10 seconds. The reason being is that by giving the skill a cooldown cost means that you can directly increase the base strength of the skill while still having it not replace skills with a lower inherent strength but are more spammable. This also makes it easier to balance the power output without having it become the spammable that deletes everything with enough mana regen.

Not to mention, cooldowns are something that has existed in just about every ARPG, even Diablo 2 had some (they were just very short).
At this point nothing will be done about it. That ship has sailed a long time ago.
01/02/2019 12:14 PMPosted by TankHunter
To be honest I do not have an issue with cooldowns on skills. Just not cooldowns exceeding 10 seconds. The reason being is that by giving the skill a cooldown cost means that you can directly increase the base strength of the skill while still having it not replace skills with a lower inherent strength but are more spammable. This also makes it easier to balance the power output without having it become the spammable that deletes everything with enough mana regen.

Not to mention, cooldowns are something that has existed in just about every ARPG, even Diablo 2 had some (they were just very short).


Diablo 1, the game who popularized aRPG have zero skills with cooldowns.

On D2 is casting delay(not same as cooldown) thanks to graphical limitations of 20 yo computers on skills who "draws" a lot of particles.

The best game in therms of action is IMO Dragon's Dogma and Dark Souls. Both have zero skills with cooldowns. The best game in therms of RPGs too have zero cooldowns, iwd, bg, bg2, vtmb, arcanum, M&M VI-VIII, etc. If you need to artificially forces the player to use another skill for X seconds, then is because your game din't did balancing right.

01/02/2019 12:19 PMPosted by mungusCREEP
At this point nothing will be done about it. That ship has sailed a long time ago.


I know, but why they decided to go into this route? I believe that PhoenixForce is right...
Diablo 1, the game who popularized aRPG have zero skills with cooldowns.

On D2 is casting delay(not same as cooldown) thanks to graphical limitations of 20 yo computers on skills who "draws" a lot of particles.

The best game in therms of action is IMO Dragon's Dogma and Dark Souls. Both have zero skills with cooldowns. The best game in therms of RPGs too have zero cooldowns, iwd, bg, bg2, vtmb, arcanum, M&M VI-VIII, etc. If you need to artificially forces the player to use another skill for X seconds, then is because your game din't did balancing right.

[/quote]None of those games you are listing are anything like Diablo which is a point and click ARPG. Torchlight has some cooldowns. Marvel Heroes had some cooldowns. Grim Dawn has a lot of cooldowns. None of those experiences were ruined by cooldowns.

Cooldown is a valuable tool FOR PROPERLY balancing. Teleport (or other movement skills), healing, invulnerability, crowd control are better balanced with cooldowns. It is hard to balance something like that when the compete with your attack resource. How would you even have a skill like DH preperation without cooldowns? It restores resources - cannot cost resource.

Sometimes it doesn't have to be a regular cooldown. It can be charges - one of the best features introduced in D3.

Super buff skills and some of the super attacks like sevensided strike are too much. Get rid of super buffs and make cooldown much less on super attacks like max of 15 seconds not 30.
01/02/2019 02:24 PMPosted by UngivenFame
None of those games you are listing are anything like Diablo which is a point and click ARPG. Torchlight has some cooldowns. Marvel Heroes had some cooldowns. Grim Dawn has a lot of cooldowns. None of those experiences were ruined by cooldowns.

Cooldown is a valuable tool FOR PROPERLY balancing. Teleport (or other movement skills), healing, invulnerability, crowd control are better balanced with cooldowns. It is hard to balance something like that when the compete with your attack resource. How would you even have a skill like DH preperation without cooldowns? It restores resources - cannot cost resource.

Sometimes it doesn't have to be a regular cooldown. It can be charges - one of the best features introduced in D3.

Super buff skills and some of the super attacks like sevensided strike are too much. Get rid of super buffs and make cooldown much less on super attacks like max of 15 seconds not 30.


I disagree. Look to grim dawn for example. 18 second skill cooldown on Raise Skeleton really killed the "undead army" fantasy. If instead Raise Skeleton had an "casting delay" who raises one skeleton each 1.5 second, it will be much better. Walk in circles and wait to raise skeletons is really bad.

I don't wanna to constant check my skill bar in a aRPG to know what skills the developer allowed me to cast in a aRPG and don't wanna to be forced to cast an "rotation" over and over again. Cooldown is a BAD way of balancing.

How to deal with high powerful skills >
-> Require a long casting time and a sacrifice(Dragon's Dogma Sacrificial bolt)
-> Have insane "resource" cost, deal a type of damage that can be resisted and be able to damage the party if trowed at CQB( M&M Dragon's Breath)
-> Have few casts/rests (Dark Souls 1 crystal soul spear)
-> Require long casting time(Tornado on Dragon's Dogma)
(...)
-> Forces the player to not use the skill again for X time

How to deal with healing >
-> Heal over time(D2 potions, Vtmb if you have blood, Lich, Troll and Vampire on M&M VIII, etc)
-> Require character resource(pathfinder kingmaker and tons of other games)
(...)
-> Forces the player to not use the item again for X time

Invulnerability >
-> Limited to some type of damage for eg Mistform on M&M VIII only makes you immune to physical
-> Drawn a lot of resources(mana/stamina) and stop resource regen(assassin on dragon's dogma)
-> Require expensive reagents
(...)
-> Forces the player to not use the skill again for X time

--------------------------------------------------

The same applies to everything else. I rather have diminishing returns on CC skills and/or increased resistances for some time than cooldown. Cooldown is clearly the most immersive breaking and cheap way to balance things.
How to deal with high powerful skills >
-> Have insane "resource" cost, deal a type of damage that can be resisted and be able to damage the party if trowed at CQB( M&M Dragon's Breath)
-> Have few casts/rests (Dark Souls 1 crystal soul spear)
-> Require long casting time(Tornado on Dragon's Dogma)
(...)

Insane resource cost is a potential solution in this case. But is it optimal? What is the difference? Having a cooldown limits the use of a particular nuke skill without making other much cheaper (spam-able) skills unusable. Like you hate running around waiting to spawn a skeleton in Grm Dawn... you don't want folks using their nuke ability and having to run around waiting to be able to use any other attack ability. That is a good thing and allows devs better control of the cost of those spammable skills.

How to deal with healing >
-> Heal over time(D2 potions, Vtmb if you have blood, Lich, Troll and Vampire on M&M VIII, etc)
-> Require character resource(pathfinder kingmaker and tons of other games)
(...)

Whether or not it heals over time doesn't matter much. If you want to have a healing ability, it needs a cooldown. You cannot trade resource for healing and have it balanced well. It would result in a situation of either restricting your resources to be used only for healing or not having healing at all.

Healing over time isn't necessarily terrible but in D2 you were using full rejuvs or else you were dead. Making every healing into a time effect is probably going to mean it doesn't see much use.



Invulnerability >
-> Limited to some type of damage for eg Mistform on M&M VIII only makes you immune to physical
-> Drawn a lot of resources(mana/stamina) and stop resource regen(assassin on dragon's dogma)
-> Require expensive reagents
Why would invulnerability to one damage type not need to be regulated? Taking a bunch of resources... its like you didn't read my post, we do not want situations in an ARPG where you hit your immune button and then have to run because there is no resources left for attack skills. What point is immunity if you immediately have to flee because you can't attack anymore?
Why the hell are you talking about reagents? Its an action ARPG. Reagents don't fit with the pacing. Can you not just pretend in your head that cooldowns are your character acquiring another regent that is needed for whatever....
I still maintain that having the option of a skill being both cooldown and not cooldown dependent (Grim Dawn) is a good way of going about it. You let LordVictor have his spammable skill, and others have their cooldown skill and it's just one skill but we have options.

Might be harder to balance but it's not like D2 was balanced on a knife's edge.
Did you have a mini stroke while typing out the topics title?
01/02/2019 06:22 PMPosted by GeminiEclips
I still maintain that having the option of a skill being both cooldown and not cooldown dependent (Grim Dawn) is a good way of going about it. You let LordVictor have his spammable skill, and others have their cooldown skill and it's just one skill but we have options.

Might be harder to balance but it's not like D2 was balanced on a knife's edge.


And it's not like Diablo 3 skills are balanced WITH cooldowns, even before set items.

...

Mechanically, cooldowns are the credit card solution to shopping:
Getting what you want, but having to pay after you get it.

Alternatives to cooldowns:

Casting time; Longer time to cast; paying while you cast.
Charging; Dedicated downtime before casting; Paying before you cast.
Expensive; High cost; Paying the moment you cast.
Draining; Resource spent regenerates slower; Pay half now, half later.
Exhaustive; Costs a secondary resource, like stamina; Trading in for discount.
Pre-charged; Charge and store -- potentially multiple charges; Pre-paid
Straining; Physical fatigue; Paying in cash
Delayed effect; Paying in quarters
Recovery time; Paying after you've used your product.
Recharging; Potentially castable at less than 100% effect; You have to fill your own cup, but only pay for what you take
Free to cast; Lower quality skill than the paid version
Charge-up: May be released at different tiers; Different prices for small, medium, large

...

Cooldowns can make sense when factors outside your character's control limit your character's skills;

A spirit animal has been destroyed, and needs time to reform.
A divine entitity that grants you it's powers moves in mysterious ways, and can't handle your !@#$ right now and don't care if you die; You're allowed to use skills when your god wants -- not when you need to.

...

I actually tried to play Archon Wizard this christmas.
Cooldown Reduction everywhere.

Still 40 seconds downtime, at this moment, before even getting the full Vyr set, playing Demon Hunter to get paragon, bounty caches, blood shards and gear for my wizard.

I want to play archon wizard, but have to play Demon Hunter until I get enough cooldown reduction and the right items to make it work.

Cooldown has the additional downside of being an immersion breaking arcade element.
"You can't use this because of balance reasons -- but you can use it more often if you stack this arcade affix that doesn't make any sense within the game, an affix that essentially sais 'you may ignore the aritificial limitations we put on your skills and use the skills you actually want to use more often'..." ... jumping through hoops...

Hoops that could've been something that didn't break immersion:
If Archon drained Arcane and stopped at 20% left, you could stack arcane regeneration in the same slot.
Arcane skills could have had a specific affix on all pieces that can have cooldown reduction.

Whatever.
Soon, I'll be 700 paragon, and have a demon hunter that's got all ancient items -- before the character I wanted to play in the first place becomes viable.
And then what?
When you can't play the character you want to play to enhance the character you want to play, what is left in Diablo 3?

Once I have full Vyr to reach the damage I need to actually play effectively, with full cooldown reduction slotted and almost can perma-archon -- needed to play with the skills I want to use, what is the point?
There's no more story, and my Demon Hunter already pushed the GRifts until my eyes bled, getting one-shotted by offscreen -- having two cheat death effects, but having to wait a minute once both effects have triggered to prevent death...

...and I remember how Baal deals 183-266 damage with his melee attacks in hell in Diablo II, and how difficulty in the previous games was all about not getting swarmed and not getting hit until you die -- avoiding completely avoidable effects...
Playing a 450 health bowazon glass cannon...
...struggling to motivate actually gearing my wizard.

What's the point?
Getting to get one-shot at higher GRift tiers as Wizard instead of Demon Hunter, preventing death with the Wizard's prevent death skill instead of the Demon Hunter's, getting enough paragon to not get one hit killed?

The problem with breaking a player's immersion is that broken immersion makes deconstructing the game world and mechanics and further breaking immersion easier;
Games are entirely relying on players willingly suspending their disbelief, as games ARE animated polygons on top of points on a grid map with scripts that either react statically or merely roll virtual dice to changes and triggers.

Diablo II was so immersive that it was hard to quit.
Infinitely stacking damage, all the power coming from gear, going from torment 3 to torment 13, grift 15 to 70 by changing one single piece of gear and completing a set... Diablo 3 is easy to quit.
nsane resource cost is a potential solution in this case. But is it optimal? What is the difference?(....)you don't want folks using their nuke ability and having to run around waiting to be able to use any other attack ability


There are a HUGE difference between not use cuz not worth, or cuz you don't have resources to do it and not use cuz you are forced. Look to a grenade. Be inable to trow a grenade cuz there are no more grenades on your inventory or choose to not waste a grenade is one thing. Be forced to wait to trow a grenade is another thing.

Dragon's Breath on M&M VI-VIII is the spell with highest damage output. On M&M VI he costs 100 mana, deal area damage so at CQB can damage your party and have a type of damage that can be resisted. Decide if worth trow two of this spell in a row is very different than be forced to wait for 2 minutes. In one you have player choices, in another, not. Diablo 1 have zero skill with cooldowns. I don't see anyone spamming the most optimal spell over and over again on D1. D2 only spells who draw a lot of particles have it.

And again, you din't talked about the infinite examples of games without this mechanic and ... You assumed that is impossible to balance without it.

01/02/2019 06:18 PMPosted by UngivenFame
f you want to have a healing ability, it needs a cooldown.


No, hell, why even after tons of examples showing games without cooldown, you still think that you need it???? Look to Elder Scrolls series, Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. All have zero cooldowns on healing spells. Look to Dark Souls, miracles(healing) have no cooldown > https://darksouls.wiki.fextralife.com/miracles

Even skyrim/oblivion, very dumbed down games have no cooldowns. ultimate skills like Highborn have casts/day. There are a reason that people consider elder scrolls game very immersive and spend hundreds of hours on then.

01/02/2019 06:18 PMPosted by UngivenFame
Why would invulnerability to one damage type not need to be regulated? Taking a bunch of resources... its like you didn't read my post, we do not want situations in an ARPG where you hit your immune button


Immunity should be limited. We both agree with that. But honestly there are tons of better ways to limit than forces the player to not use. Invisibility on Dragon's Dogma have a similar effect and... Draw a lot of resources. If you wanna use a lot of stamina recovering items and use it frequently, you will gonna lose other item slots. Dragon's Dogma is an amazing action game because of it. Doesn't remove player agency.

----------------------------------------

As Frostheaven said, cooldowns can be changed by a lot of others


Casting time; Longer time to cast; paying while you cast.
Charging; Dedicated downtime before casting; Paying before you cast.
Expensive; High cost; Paying the moment you cast.
Draining; Resource spent regenerates slower; Pay half now, half later.
Exhaustive; Costs a secondary resource, like stamina; Trading in for discount.
Pre-charged; Charge and store -- potentially multiple charges; Pre-paid
Straining; Physical fatigue; Paying in cash
Delayed effect; Paying in quarters
Recovery time; Paying after you've used your product.
Recharging; Potentially castable at less than 100% effect; You have to fill your own cup, but only pay for what you take
Free to cast; Lower quality skill than the paid version
Charge-up: May be released at different tiers; Different prices for small, medium, large
(...)
Diablo II was so immersive that it was hard to quit.
Infinitely stacking damage, all the power coming from gear, going from torment 3 to torment 13, grift 15 to 70 by changing one single piece of gear and completing a set... Diablo 3 is easy to quit.


But why i an typing? People will just ignore tons of examples of games without cooldown and assume that without cooldown the game can't be balanced...

So i give up. I can spam all day sacrificial bolt on Dragon's Dogma, can spam all day elfborn on skyrim, can spam all day crystal soul spear on dark souls, can spam .50 bmg high explosive on fallout new vegas without any cost, diablo 1 and 2 are about spam the same skill and M&M VI is about spam only the highest damage output spell, there are no situational spells. Every game that i've mentioned is poorly balanced(/sarcasm)
Even skyrim/oblivion, very dumbed down games have no cooldowns.


Well skyrim did have that whole dragonborn thing and cooldowns on shouts.

Why did they have that?, Well without it, you could just spam fus-roh-dah to the ends of the earth.

01/03/2019 04:28 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
People will just ignore tons of examples of games without cooldown and assume that without cooldown the game can't be balanced...


Sure it can, but it can also be balanced with cooldowns, never exclude one way just because you dont like it, instead look at it from all angles.

Sure I dont like the long cooldowns, but then again limiting stuff like Seven sided strike, land of the dead, falling sword. Skills with effects which may be strong, but have a immortality effect added on top of it, they would need to be changed to situational rather than spammable.
Funny thing is all games are cartoons nothing in ANY of them looks real
Cooldowns are lazy, boring and only serve as band-aids to deeper problems.
01/03/2019 05:09 AMPosted by Rashiel
Even skyrim/oblivion, very dumbed down games have no cooldowns.


Well skyrim did have that whole dragonborn thing and cooldowns on shouts.

Why did they have that?, Well without it, you could just spam fus-roh-dah to the ends of the earth.

01/03/2019 04:28 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
People will just ignore tons of examples of games without cooldown and assume that without cooldown the game can't be balanced...


Sure it can, but it can also be balanced with cooldowns, never exclude one way just because you dont like it, instead look at it from all angles.

Sure I dont like the long cooldowns, but then again limiting stuff like Seven sided strike, land of the dead, falling sword. Skills with effects which may be strong, but have a immortality effect added on top of it, they would need to be changed to situational rather than spammable.


Yes, you are right. Shoults have cooldown on skyrim,i forgot about it... And d3 needs to be completely re balanced to get rid of it. IMO the best is to balance the next diablo and let d3 the way that d3 is.
Probably something to do with China and mobile phones.
01/02/2019 04:02 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
18 second skill cooldown on Raise Skeleton really killed the "undead army" fantasy.


You need to boost your skeletons HP and resists, and heal them too. IIRC 18 sec CD can be lowered too.
I played cabalist and purposely built durable and supported minions. Skeletons die very rarely and the undead horde is pretty much 'alive'.
Bigger minions in the team also help. One of them has like 450K HP!!!

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