How a Dark Fantasy aRPG becomed an cartoon...?

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01/06/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Rashiel
Same goes with d3, i can allocate my stats completly different on every char I make


No, you can't choose the stats.All characters of the same class have the same skills and same attributes. Only the gear that they are wearing and skills on the bar changes...

01/06/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Rashiel
While it is the biggest factor, choosing the right abilities and aligning them correctly is a very important part


No, is not. "choosing habilities" to put into a bar is not different than choosing perks on cod pick 10 system.

01/06/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Rashiel
gear was the most important part, such as with all the melee builds,


I can beat the game on hell naked with most d2 classes except barbarian. Wind/Fire druids can with a great difficulty, bone necros can easily, sorc can easily, trapssin can easily, Paladin only needs gear until you don't have auras then hammerdin can solo the game on hell with 8 players

And even a Barbarian, you can beat the game on hardest difficulty with magical/rare, while on D3 only legendary/set items matters, is impossible to complete T13 on D3 without legendary/set items... Weapons on D2 are used as weapons, not as a way to replace all skill progression in the worst possible way. Start with an weak single skeleton and gradually have stronger in greater numbers until you are capable to commanding an undead army is an RPG based progression. The weakest to the strongest necromancer in the lands being able to control 7 skeletons that are stronger as his master's big and sharp claymore is is a awful progression. Game mechanics should reflect the world lore and give a sense of progression.

D2 did it right.
Some weapon skills "scales" only with the weapon
Some are %weapon damage and %skill damage
Some are raw skill damage
Some "scales" with enemy HP like Static field and Corpse Explosion
Some skills have very random damage output like chain lighting and some have a very consistent.
(...)
But they're still the same, you can still allocate stats (true that it's only through paragon levels) but you can still allocate them, at one point you max out some of them, and you can choose main stat and vit. It doesn't take away the fact that you can choose the stats.

Secondly, I'd love to see you play every single melee build and beat baal in hell difficulty, and I said build, not class, and you'd have to play it with white level 1 gear at best, then show to me how naked you can be.

If you can finish the game naked on some builds, then obviously something is wrong with the balance, am I right? There should be a balance between gear and build. Call them lazy, but balancing the game and pacing with several different damage calculations ends up being a bad approach to a game. If you have one, you just have to minimal changes to get the balance in check (not saying they've always succeeded with all the balancing).

Also, even if you say "big sharp claymore", the drinking game still applies.
01/06/2019 02:03 PMPosted by Rashiel
you can still allocate stats


Is account wide, not based on character and is just an bandaid on the lack of character progression.

01/06/2019 02:03 PMPosted by Rashiel
then show to me how naked you can be.


Require weapon in skills that uses weapon makes sense.
Just like an bowzon and a javazon requires ammo

Make an unarmed monk or an necro require an heavy warhammer or any other weapon to have strong punches/spells makes no sense. Is like make an barbarian to spend ammo on their attacks

Imagine it on MOVIES. See monks welding axes only to be dismaterialized before a punch and then rematerialized is no different than see an barbarian spending arrows on a quiver to attack on melee. Makes no sense. If it comes on a movie, will become a meme, but by some reason people have different suspension of disbelief levels with gaming

01/06/2019 02:03 PMPosted by Rashiel
hen obviously something is wrong with the balance, am I right? There should be a balance between gear and build. Call them lazy, but balancing the game and pacing with several different damage calculations ends up being a bad approach to a game.


No, is not. How many rpgs did you have played? Look to other aRPG's competiting to D3
- Path of Exile - Spell gems don't use weapon damage
- Grim Dawn - Only few skills uses PARTIALLY weapon damage
- Wolcen - Raw skill damage
(...)
This games aren't broken or bad. And if you look to classic RPG games that Diablo is inspired(d1/d2, not d3), your weapon is irrelevant on spell casting, on D1 staves have "charges" and works similarly to previous dos era RPG's. Game mechanics should reflect the fictional world's lore.

On D3 when i started to play as a Wiz, i after some time got an good weapon and... The game become a cakewalk. One variable be that determinant really hurts the game. D3 is the most unbalanced game on the series despite his oversimplistic mechanics(imagine if d2 had only barbarian and the max skill level is 1), the difference between an optimal build and a sub optimal build is far greater than any other game that i've saw.


01/06/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Rashiel
gear was the most important part, such as with all the melee builds,


I can beat the game on hell naked with most d2 classes except barbarian. Wind/Fire druids can with a great difficulty, bone necros can easily, sorc can easily, trapssin can easily, Paladin only needs gear until you don't have auras then hammerdin can solo the game on hell with 8 players

D2 did it right.
Some weapon skills "scales" only with the weapon
Some are %weapon damage and %skill damage
Some are raw skill damage
Some "scales" with enemy HP like Static field and Corpse Explosion
(...)
You are actually highlighting a PROBLEM with D2. That one can beat the game naked is not actually good and its worse because only some classes and only some builds can do it.

You are totally ignoring that melee druid, barbarian, amazon are very dependent on weapon damage. Spell caster weapons need to augment spell damage and have very low melee damage value. Melee weapons need to have good melee damage value and not augment spell damage.

Having some classes totally dependent on gear and others not dependent at all IS NOT DOING IT RIGHT. I'm completely unhappy with D3 system of weapon damage for all but you just say the same things over and over again without thinking even a little bit about the implications.

D2 did NOT do it right because it was incredibly unbalanced and D3 did NOT fix it in the right way and YOU make no attempt to find something in between.
01/02/2019 09:03 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Why they decided to change diablo, from action focused role playing game into an gear playing game?


The reason why D3 is focused on gear is the game designers thought it'd make for better gameplay if all classes relied on gear and cared about loot drops. They viewed the Sorceress class from D2, which wasn't reliant on gear, as a problem.

Interestingly they also said that relying on primary stats for damage did lead to a problem where you no longer had "build changer" items like you did in D2. They tried to address this by adding legendary items.

Source: https://youtu.be/FG10e0-JyjY?t=790 (13:10)


<span class="truncated">...</span>

I can beat the game on hell naked with most d2 classes except barbarian. Wind/Fire druids can with a great difficulty, bone necros can easily, sorc can easily, trapssin can easily, Paladin only needs gear until you don't have auras then hammerdin can solo the game on hell with 8 players

D2 did it right.
Some weapon skills "scales" only with the weapon
Some are %weapon damage and %skill damage
Some are raw skill damage
Some "scales" with enemy HP like Static field and Corpse Explosion
(...)
You are actually highlighting a PROBLEM with D2. That one can beat the game naked is not actually good and its worse because only some classes and only some builds can do it.

You are totally ignoring that melee druid, barbarian, amazon are very dependent on weapon damage. Spell caster weapons need to augment spell damage and have very low melee damage value. Melee weapons need to have good melee damage value and not augment spell damage.

Having some classes totally dependent on gear and others not dependent at all IS NOT DOING IT RIGHT. I'm completely unhappy with D3 system of weapon damage for all but you just say the same things over and over again without thinking even a little bit about the implications.

D2 did NOT do it right because it was incredibly unbalanced and D3 did NOT fix it in the right way and YOU make no attempt to find something in between.


I have another amazing idea. Necromancer on D2 needs corpses to cast spells like corpse explosion and raise skeleton, let's make Sorceress static field requires it. And makes druid transformation to werewolf/werebear require it. Why not his hurricane?

Having bowzon dependent on ammo and barbarian not NOT DOING IT RIGHT. If a bowzon needs to spend ammo, an barbarian needs to spend too on his melee attacks because homogenization > immersive game mechanics. /sarcasm

Now seriously. This is not a problem. If this is a problem, is a problem with virtually ALL RPG's/aRPG's that i have played. I have 73 games on gog and more than 100 on steam. Most of then RPG's. None of then have this mechanic that makes no sense.
In fact i only know DA:I and DA:2 with this boring skill damage = weapon damage game mechanic

01/06/2019 03:26 PMPosted by Jinx
01/02/2019 09:03 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Why they decided to change diablo, from action focused role playing game into an gear playing game?


The reason why D3 is focused on gear is the game designers thought it'd make for better gameplay if all classes relied on gear and cared about loot drops. They viewed the Sorceress class from D2, which wasn't reliant on gear, as a problem.

Interestingly they also said that relying on primary stats for damage did lead to a problem where you no longer had "build changer" items like you did in D2. They tried to address this by adding legendary items.

Source: https://youtu.be/FG10e0-JyjY?t=790 (13:10)


I only watched a portion. Ironically he din't mentioned the weakness of sorc...

Quoting some comments

"wow ty for explaining how you killed my favorite game in detail"
cocox69 - 95 likes

"So much bull!@#$ he told about issues of Diablo II. Which they "fixed" by killing character skillset diversity and making D3 huge item-farming sim."
Un4tuner 47 likes

Marcos Vargas Moran 28 likes
"So I wanted to make God of War, but they give me Diablo 3, so I tried to screw the game as much as I can"

He should had start with that quote, just to keep things honest.

MrZurata
"Ruins Diablo
Gets put on WoW
Makes one of the worst expansions ever released

Jay Wilson truly is a legend. No one else has failed as much as him"


vvlmm - 33 likes
"The name of this talk should be: "How we did it all wrong in Diablo III" or "How we put Magic cool down in an action RPG""
01/06/2019 03:54 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
vvlmm - 33 likes
"The name of this talk should be: "How we did it all wrong in Diablo III" or "How we put Magic cool down in an action RPG""


Was just saying the reasons, not saying the reasons were right. :)

If you do want the "How we did it all wrong in Diablo III" talk, you'll want Josh Mosqueria's "Road to Redemption" GDC talk from 2015.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bajI1oGPhog
@Jinx the video that you posted is amazing. Showed how he thinks. For example, the simplistic "only max dps" gearing on d3 was made cuz on d2 some times you can't decide between is better more resistance or more hit recovery? Is better to get more skill level or casting speed? For he it is a problem. For me it makes each build more unique and is good.

But he said at 15:04 ( https://youtu.be/FG10e0-JyjY?t=905 ) that every character should't decide about weapons based on the weapon damage. It is the major problem of D3.

For example, Suicide Branch on D2 gives +50% casting rate. This is a huge buff for a bone necro but useless for a poison necro since poison nova is damage over time ( https://diablo.gamepedia.com/Unique_Wands_(Diablo_II) ), this type of gearing is what i miss on modern games...

Thanks a lot of it. I an listening while play Warthunder. I usually check the forum when i an waiting to play in some modes with long queues.
Thanks. I quite like the D3 GDC videos because they explain their choices which is handy whether you think those choices are right or wrong.

The other (3rd) GDC video I haven't linked yet in this thread is Wyatt Cheng talking about refining game systems at GDC 2013, which explains the reasoning behind D3's skill selection system (and a few other things).

https://youtu.be/Snc7PAQywxk?t=2042 (34:02)
@ Jinx Thanks a lot again. Do you know any video about artstyle? The decision to change from Dark Gothic Fantasy to Disney like cartoonish puzzles my mind. It was made with censorship on some countries in mind? Console port? ESRB ratting? Economic reasons since they can re-use assets from wow?

I listened to the video while played other games. Is easy to point out mistakes made on D2 skill tree system, it was the one of the first games that used this type of progression and a lot of games started to adopt it. Sure other games have better trees but was really an innovation that despite being a little less immersive than reading tomes(d1), allow much more player agency(and no, copy mechanics from another genre is not innovation). After d2 skill tree, a lot of games started to use it, now even shooters like FC3 and BF 5 have it.

I think that if reading tomes increases your spell level, a portion of the spell "power"(not only damage) is determined by attributes and a portion based on a "passive skill tree" with instead of offensives skills, passives for eg "more minion health", "more projectile speed", "more elemental damage X" etc will be better. Will combine the best of D1 immersive leveling with D2 "player agency" based progression.

I still believe that an necro/sorc relaying on his weapon to use spells is silly as an barbarian needing to use corpses cuz some necro skills needs corpses or having to spend ammo cuz a bow-user user needs to spend it and that the "solution" to a not problem that Jay presented really broken the in game immersion and balance.
01/06/2019 05:59 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Do you know any video about artstyle? The decision to change from Dark Gothic Fantasy to Disney like cartoonish puzzles my mind.


Not specifically but my guess is it's due to D3 going in-house (rather than Blizzard North) and adopting Blizzard's core design philosophy which includes appealing to the casual market.

Rob Pardo (who was Executive Producer of D3) gave a keynote talk at Austin Game Conference back in 2006 about Blizzard's game philosophy as applied to WOW. Raph Koster's notes from the event are here: https://www.raphkoster.com/2006/09/06/agc-rob-pardos-keynote/

It all starts with a donut. Allan Adham (original designer & founder at Blizzard) would draw a donut to explain what Blizzard is about. The middle of the donut is the core market. The casual market is the rest. We see Blizzard as being about both, and that the casual market grows faster than the core.

At GDC 2010 Rob Pardo also went through Blizzard's design philosophies: http://www.third-helix.com/2010/03/13/gdc-2010-blizzards-design-philosophies.html

Interesting that one of them is "Make everything overpowered" particularly in the context of D3.
01/06/2019 03:54 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
I have another amazing idea. Necromancer on D2 needs corpses to cast spells like corpse explosion and raise skeleton, let's make Sorceress static field requires it. And makes druid transformation to werewolf/werebear require it. Why not his hurricane?

Having bowzon dependent on ammo and barbarian not NOT DOING IT RIGHT. If a bowzon needs to spend ammo, an barbarian needs to spend too on his melee attacks because homogenization > immersive game mechanics. /sarcasm

Now seriously. This is not a problem. If this is a problem, is a problem with virtually ALL RPG's/aRPG's that i have played. I have 73 games on gog and more than 100 on steam. Most of then RPG's. None of then have this mechanic that makes no sense.
In fact i only know DA:I and DA:2 with this boring skill damage = weapon damage game mechanic
Nice straw man. You entirely ignored my entire argument and tried to turn it into something completely different and make it look ridiclous.
Victor, theres only one reason and thats greed - cartoonish graphics means broader age range available and that in return means more sales for them. They are money focused calculators; they wont give us a dark, gothic and bloody D4 when they need to renounce half of the sales in favour of it.
We'll have to wait and see what they do with future projects.

There's quite a contrast between Diablo 4's supposed pillar "embrace the darkness" and Diablo Immortal's desire to appeal to a broader/younger audience.

I'm hoping they embrace two different styles for two different games within the one universe the same way Logan was a more adult movie compared to the prior X-Men movies. Or how the different Star Wars movies target different age ranges.

I think they'll go that way. Adult doesn't necessarily hurt profits -- just look at GTA V which is one of the most profitable games of all time.
01/06/2019 08:08 PMPosted by UngivenFame
Nice straw man. You entirely ignored my entire argument and tried to turn it into something completely different and make it look ridiclous.


No, is not a strawman. Game mechanics should reflect the world's lore. That is how every game that i've mentioned here with few exceptions works.

An skill like corpse explosion or revive requiring an corpse makes completely sense, but this skill requiring an weapon makes no sense. Make corpse explosion scales with WD is silly as make Double Swing require corpses.

Barbarian is one of the less popular classes on d2. The fact that everyone gears like then on d3 really hurts the uniqueness of classes too.

01/06/2019 09:33 PMPosted by Jinx
There's quite a contrast between Diablo 4's supposed pillar "embrace the darkness" and Diablo Immortal's desire to appeal to a broader/younger audience.


I really hope that they follow the "embrace the darkness" as for dark greedy, sure, the market is a little smaller but there are much less companies exploring this market and people on this market have money to pay for what they wanna.

-----------------------

I saw the video that Jinx posted and apparently Jay only likes to play with Barb...
01/06/2019 11:49 AMPosted by Rashiel
Same goes with d3, i can allocate my stats completly different on every char I make


No, you can't choose the stats.All characters of the same class have the same skills and same attributes. Only the gear that they are wearing and skills on the bar changes...


I'm beginning to wonder if you even played D2. Here are your choices for stat allocation:
What gear are you aiming for? Get Str (and Dex, if applicable) just high enough to meet requirements.
Are you using a shield? If so, Dex high enough to get 75% block. Otherwise, ignore.
Are you a caster? LOL it doesn't matter; ignore Energy regardless.
Dump any remaining points into Vit.

Such choices, amirite?

And don't pretend D2 wasn't a loot fest. What did you spend your time doing in that game? Not farming for loot?

And show me a video of post-LOD no equips lightning only sorc build, please. Or just with no Infinity.
01/07/2019 07:14 AMPosted by BlackMage
I'm beginning to wonder if you even played D2. Here are your choices for stat allocation:
What gear are you aiming for? Get Str (and Dex, if applicable) just high enough to meet requirements.
Are you using a shield? If so, Dex high enough to get 75% block. Otherwise, ignore.
Are you a caster? LOL it doesn't matter; ignore Energy regardless.
Dump any remaining points into Vit.

Such choices, amirite?


Again. If something is broken you fix it and/or improve. Diablo 1 did attributes right. Energy in some mods actually improve your spell damage. Only cuz one game failed with something fundamental, doesn't means that it should be removed.

And you are ignoring certain builds like energ shield sorc.

01/07/2019 07:14 AMPosted by BlackMage
And don't pretend D2 wasn't a loot fest. What did you spend your time doing in that game? Not farming for loot?


D2 = Attributes + Gear + skill tree
D3 = Gear

While i an exploring and getting items, i an getting more XP and skill points.

The best diablo is D1 exactly because gear is not ridiculous OP compared to post LOD D2. But you can play classic D2 if you like. And guess what. Play D2 without runewords, charms and etc is much more interesting.
I, for one, played Diablo II.

I had a titan barbarian, and glass cannon amazon:
500 strength for the barbarian, and 450 dexterity for the amazon.

Why did you want vitality anyway?
To survive.
And why do you need vitality if you're skilled enough to not get killed -- and don't already one-hit-kill elite monsters?
So you equip the highest base damage weapons you can find -- and get 350% damage over other builds that spend those 350 points in vitality.

Vitality was a mistake;
Strength, dexterity and energy should have had (stronger) defensive properties.

And still -- even if you went for vanilla cookie-cutter builds, you had a choice.

Strength for equipment.
Strength for alternative equipment.
Strength for equipment -- after charms.
Strength for equipment -- after charms and lower strength requirement gear.
Base strength, and use other items to reach minimum strength requirements.
A sorceress could save 3 skillpoints by using Enigma instead of getting teleport.

...

75% block is also arbitrary;
You can save points by getting 70% block instead of 75% -- and getting hit one time out of 20 more, but having significantly more health, can help some builds.

Attributes allowed customization;

A 156 strength dexterity sorceress WAS different from a 100 strength sorceress, and both different from a 35 strength sorceress.

I much prefer attributes returning to Diablo IV than retaining the mainstat crap that's essentially "+X to class skills and +Y to all resistances and +Z to physical resistance" rolled into one overpowered item attribute.

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