Immunities should come back on next Diablo??

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Oh god, please no immunites.

Immunites were one of the worst things in D2, because it forced you to at least use two different elements on your char or to have Infinity (en extremely expensive endgame runeword) on your merc to break the immunites (which didn't even always work for some fire and cold immune enemies) or to carry a wand with you around that had lower resist charges.

Instead of immunites, just having enemies with higher resistances to certain elements is a much better approach for various reasons, but not complete immunites.

With high resistances instead of immunites, you could choose to play a build that focuses only on one element, for example a fire-mage, and still be viable - you just had to deal with the fact that your attacks will deal less damage against certain enemies than others.

Alternatively, you still could go with a dual element build to better deal with enemies that have a higher resistance to one element, but you would not as powerful with one element as a build who only specializes in a single one.

Then you also could have the option to put things like (for example) Ignores x% of targets fire resistance on your gear to help you with enemies that have a high resistance to a certain element (fire in this case), assuming this affix would be more common.

The idea is that this affix does not subtract a flat amount of resistances from an enemy as it did in D2, but a percentage amount. So when the target has a huge amount of resistances, lets say 10.000 fire resistance and you ignore 40% fire resistance, the targets fire resistance gets lowered to 6.000, but when the target has only 800 fire resistance, and you had the same amount of 40% ignored fire resistance on your gear, the targets resistance would only be lowered to 480, which is more of a marginal amount.

All this would allow a lot more freedom in how to build and gear your char, instead of being forced by immunites to go dual elements or Infinity merc.
12/17/2018 11:22 AMPosted by clueso
instead of being forced by immunites to go dual elements or Infinity merc.


Have you tried having an Amplify Damage weapon or Lower Resist charged skill wand? They're cheap and can be found at town merchants. Another approach is getting specific unique items with Static Field or Crushing Blow chance, which is doable with some effort. There are so many ways you can abuse their weakness in D2, all you had to do was exploring.

Does it take anything from game's immersion when you have to build your character for dual elemental at all? Who told you guys that you can simply walk over hell hordes by abusing skill synergies? Immunity system are there to halt player from abusing synergy system. It's working as intended when you build your character to split elemental profession as exact. It's not too hard to read into.

When you oversee the details, immunities are nothing different than resistance for monsters; both approach force player to abuse target's weakness as long as they do accordingly so.
As long as players can overcome a monster's immunity, via either a passive skill or gear components and not every single monster possesses an immunity, I wouldn't have much issue if immunity were to return in future installments.
I'm for immunities to certain extent. It changes your strategy and gameplay. Double immune is ok but triple immune is overkill. There are ways to break immunities so its not that bad. When you couldn't change talents at will you really had to be on point when deciding what kind of spec you wanted to be for end game. If they continue with changing specs at will then immunes will not be that big of a deal in the open world. Rifts would be more challenging. I would say a higher percentage will not like it though.
Adding immunities would be fine if you also include a way of granting abilities the ability to penetrate resistances thus making the entity to go from immune to just highly resistant and/or synergistic abilities that outright reduce resistances.

PoE uses both, you have supports and nodes that give elemental resistance penetration and there is a curse for each elemental (and chaos) damage type that reduces the resistance. There is also other supports/abilities that have effects for reducing resistances like the curses do but integrate them into the damage skill. Not to mention the "cast on hit" support gem that allows you to set it up so that when you smack enemies around with a elemental based melee build it casts your curse for you, or that support gem that turns curses into auras.

This is so that people can specialize in a single element, but not be screwed over by an enemy that is effectively immune to that element.
I don't know anyone who enjoyed immunities in d2, all it did was either to rely on groupplay or forcing us into using abilities we may not want.

Playing a paladin, I ran a few points into vengeance and conviction, just to deal with physical immunities.

Even having resistance is questionable, but better than full immunity to anything.
Immunities were as fun as Iron Maiden in the chaos sanctuary..........god that was annoying as hell.
You know how you think cooldowns are a lazy way to balance skills?

Well.. immunities are a lazy way to balance monsters and damage.

I don’t see why you’d like resistances and immunities, anyway. You were busy complaining, for example, that you couldn’t be “a Frost mage” in games like Dragon Age. But that’s EXACTLY what resistances and immunities are there to prevent you from doing - being too dependent on a singular damage type.
12/17/2018 11:30 AMPosted by naksiloth
12/17/2018 11:22 AMPosted by clueso
instead of being forced by immunites to go dual elements or Infinity merc.


Have you tried having an Amplify Damage weapon or Lower Resist charged skill wand?

I mentioned lower resist wands previously in my post. Read it again.

12/17/2018 11:30 AMPosted by naksiloth
Does it take anything from game's immersion when you have to build your character for dual elemental at all?

I didn't mention immersion at all. Immunites do not take away immersion, but they take away build/gear diversity and lower the ways you can customize your character, especially if you do not want to like the cheesy or highly costly ways or dual elemental builds to deal with them.

12/17/2018 11:30 AMPosted by naksiloth
Who told you guys that you can simply walk over hell hordes by abusing skill synergies? Immunity system are there to halt player from abusing synergy system. It's working as intended when you build your character to split elemental profession as exact. It's not too hard to read into.

With "skill synergies" you mean that in D2 you could make a skill stronger by putting points into another one?

Imo synergies were one of the worst things in D2 besides immunites, because it lowers build diversity since you often were incentivized to put points into skills that you otherwise would never use again instead of spending them into other active skills, which would increase the amount of active skills you could have available later, but that is another topic.

Besides that, I explained in my post why having monsters with high resistances is much better than immunites.
12/17/2018 12:51 PMPosted by Orrion
You know how you think cooldowns are a lazy way to balance skills?

Well.. immunities are a lazy way to balance monsters and damage.

I don’t see why you’d like resistances and immunities, anyway. You were busy complaining, for example, that you couldn’t be “a Frost mage” in games like Dragon Age. But that’s EXACTLY what resistances and immunities are there to prevent you from doing - being too dependent on a singular damage type.

^^THIS
but they take away build/gear diversity and lower the ways you can customize your character,


That's why it's called "difficulty" I think. Builds are still there, you just have to pick a different approach.

especially if you do not want to like the cheesy or highly costly ways


Only happens when you build around a single elemental. You don't have to buy anything even if that's the case either as game provides such paths for you to follow. You can respec your skills after building a dual elemental build and it doesn't take away from game's replayability. You just had to read some information just like D3.

It's called "difficulty" for a reason, as it simply prevents you from abusing overpowered mechanics while allowing you to progress as combat is not equal to damage output in D2. You either come over an obstacle or adapt to it. You refuse both by not seeing the context.

12/17/2018 01:41 PMPosted by clueso
Imo synergies were one of the worst things in D2 besides immunites,


*shrug* How do you like Sets in D3 then? Synergies are there for a sense of progress, immunities are there to balance it out and prevent the abuse. In a way or another, difficulty scale will force player to adapt to different mechanics. Refusing such simple concept in videogames is nothing short of being ignorant.
D2 did the difficulty by not bloating numbers up to millions, and it did it by emphasizing utility and layered defense mechanisms for monsters.
No thanks
12/17/2018 12:51 PMPosted by Orrion
You know how you think cooldowns are a lazy way to balance skills?

Well.. immunities are a lazy way to balance monsters and damage.

I don’t see why you’d like resistances and immunities, anyway. You were busy complaining, for example, that you couldn’t be “a Frost mage” in games like Dragon Age. But that’s EXACTLY what resistances and immunities are there to prevent you from doing - being too dependent on a singular damage type.

Yes, but then again it forces you to make some choices to counter those situations.

The biggest issue with D3 currently (gameplay wise) is the very fact that they tried to prevent; skill spamming.

Since there's only one way to maximize your damage output, which is to gain as much damage as you can for that one skill, then you are going to use that skill for all of the time. Immunities is a perfect way to break that, and a great way to challenge the player to opt for some secondary effects.

The issue is just to make worthwhile and possible.
12/17/2018 12:51 PMPosted by Orrion
You know how you think cooldowns are a lazy way to balance skills?

Well.. immunities are a lazy way to balance monsters and damage.

I don’t see why you’d like resistances and immunities, anyway. You were busy complaining, for example, that you couldn’t be “a Frost mage” in games like Dragon Age. But that’s EXACTLY what resistances and immunities are there to prevent you from doing - being too dependent on a singular damage type.


Immunities slapped on every single monster was a huge mistake,

"It's a demon, so it's immune to fire."
"It's a cave zombie, so it's immune to cold."
"It's a crypt skeleton, so it's immune to poison."

Bad design.

Resistances..? Sure.
50%, 75% -- where appropriate.

It's a demon that actually lives on the lands between the pools of lava, that surive a short dip into it.
Just display resistances under the name.

But some immunities were fine; Super-unique monsters could have single or double immunities -- breakable with high enough damage -- not for the sake of challenge, but for the sake of consistency.

Creatures capable of bathing in lava should have a (limited) fire immunity.
Monsters that are elemental cold come alive should have a (limited) cold immunity.
Some constructs or golems could be immune to lightning and poison, with a limit on how much damage they can absorb.
12/17/2018 01:44 PMPosted by naksiloth
but they take away build/gear diversity and lower the ways you can customize your character,


That's why it's called "difficulty" I think.

That is not a good argument in favor of taking away build/gear diversity.
You can have an increased difficulty in many other ways.

12/17/2018 01:44 PMPosted by naksiloth
especially if you do not want to like the cheesy or highly costly ways


Only happens when you build around a single elemental.

So you agree?! Immunites reduce build diversity and you eventually have to deal with them in cheesy or highly costly ways.

You don't have to buy anything even if that's the case either. You just had to read some information just like D3.

That has nothing to do with the point I was making.

It's called "difficulty" for a reason as it simply prevents you from abusing overpowered mechanics while allowing you to progress as combat is not equal to damage output in D2. You either come over an obstacle or adapt to it. You refuse both by not seeing the context.

As I explained in my previous post, high resistances on enemies are an obstacle as well, because they significantly reduce the damage you deal to certain enemies and there are also several ways to deal with them.

You can either...
  • go dual element, but therefore become more of a Jack-of-all-trades.
  • you put Ignores x% of targets X resistance on your gear, which would allow you to better deal with highly resistant enemies to your element, at the cost of not having other affixes instead that would help you to be more powerful against enemies that have low to medium resistances against your element.
  • or simply stay with a single element and accept & deal with the fact that your build will deal significantly less damage against certain enemies that are highly resistant to your element.
  • Immunities do not allow you to choose option 3, therefore reducing the amount of ways you can build your character and deal with the obstacle.

    12/17/2018 01:44 PMPosted by naksiloth
    12/17/2018 01:41 PMPosted by clueso
    Imo synergies were one of the worst things in D2 besides immunites,


    *shrug* How do you like Sets in D3 then?

    I do not like sets. In fact, I am probably one of the most outspoken critics on sets on this forum.

    12/17/2018 01:44 PMPosted by naksiloth
    D2 did the difficulty by not bloating numbers up to millions

    Indeed, that was one of many things that D2 did better than D3, but that does not mean that D2 was perfect in all aspects.
    12/17/2018 02:44 PMPosted by Frostraven

    Immunities slapped on every single monster was a huge mistake,

    "It's a demon, so it's immune to fire."
    "It's a cave zombie, so it's immune to cold."
    "It's a crypt skeleton, so it's immune to poison."

    Bad design.


    Why are those a bad design? We all know Hell is fiery and feels like burning, so it should be natural for a demon to be immune to fire. How could a mortal create fire that is hotter than the pits of Hell to burn a demon?

    Cold immunity makes sense for a Zombie. They're dead, they can't get hypothermia or frostbite.

    Poison immunity on a skeleton? they're undead, it makes sense.

    Immunities slapped on every monster ensured that a player can't just choose a single element and jack it up to face roll the game. Sooner or later you'll find that monster that is immune and you better have a backup plan.

    12/17/2018 02:44 PMPosted by Frostraven
    Creatures capable of bathing in lava should have a (limited) fire immunity.
    Monsters that are elemental cold come alive should have a (limited) cold immunity.
    Some constructs or golems could be immune to lightning and poison, with a limit on how much damage they can absorb.


    So, immunities are really just a limited amount of resistance? I think your definition of immunity differs from many others.

    Instead of expecting to faceroll the entire game because resistances can be overcome with high enough damage output, come up with a backup plan or party up with players to help cover up your own weakness. Teamwork gets things done. Are you only using fire damage? Thank goodness there are several other classes that deal other damage types and/or a player or two using hex style spells to strip resists and immunities.

    I ran a pure lightning sorceress, pure fire sorceress and pure ice sorceress in D2 with NO issues at all unless I played solo. Even then, I just avoided the ones I couldn't kill and moved on.

    It would be a good idea to have other means to help players circumvent immunities. legendary bonuses that give a specific element type the ability to reduce resists (Let's say "immune" is written as 100% resists, that means this can make the monster just very highly resistant), specific classes with skills to lower resist or improve spell penetration. Items with charges players can use to take a monster from immune to 75% resistant. There are a lot of options to make immunities a skill check obstacle and not just a gear check one to see if your gear gives enough damage to blow through it.
    12/17/2018 02:44 PMPosted by Frostraven
    It's a demon that actually lives on the lands between the pools of lava, that surive a short dip into it.
    Just display resistances under the name.

    But some immunities were fine; Super-unique monsters could have single or double immunities -- breakable with high enough damage -- not for the sake of challenge, but for the sake of consistency.

    Creatures capable of bathing in lava should have a (limited) fire immunity.
    Monsters that are elemental cold come alive should have a (limited) cold immunity.

    That is why in some cases gameplay convenience (or however you wanna call it) > consistency/immersion.
    That is not a good argument in favor of taking away build/gear diversity.


    Gear diversity is still there as long as you have "key features". Just like Sets in D3; they'll work as long as you actively use their trigger skills. In D2 you have to work for it instead of them being handed out to you.

    So you agree?! Immunites reduce build diversity and you eventually have to deal with them in cheesy or highly costly ways.


    What's "highly costly" of buying a random wand from a town merchant for in-game gold or finding proper items by looting? All it ever asked you was thinking with some foresight and deciding what you need before hand. That's not too much to ask when design simply tries to mold you into not wasting skill synergies from the get-go.

    Some people shill out money or bot, but game never requires you to enjoy the experience. If you can not stand it, then you don't like playing it at the first place. If you wanna taste victory at the first twenty mins of gameplay and reach endgame right away that won't happen. That's where the difficulty scale lies within'.

    As I explained in my previous post, high resistances on enemies are an obstacle as well


    When you break their immunity, monsters turn into highly resisted types. That also hints the fight will last longer than you intended if you lack in damage, hence why D2 have synergy system.

    or simply stay with a single element and accept & deal with the fact that your build will deal significantly less damage against certain enemies that are highly resistant to your element.


    Do you think that doesn't happen despite gearing with conviction and lower rezt when you spec your character for single element? As I said before, resistance break works with 1/5th efficiency on immune monsters; when you break their immunity they hit around 80% resistance or so. You're still only hitting 20% of your damage to the specificly immune monster even after you broke its immunity when you spec for single elemental.
    12/17/2018 03:28 PMPosted by naksiloth
    So you agree?! Immunites reduce build diversity and you eventually have to deal with them in cheesy or highly costly ways.


    What's "highly costly" of buying a random wand from a merchant or finding proper items by looting?

    "highly costly" was referring to Infinity RW.

    12/17/2018 03:28 PMPosted by naksiloth
    If you wanna taste victory at the first twenty mins of gameplay and reach endgame right away that won't happen. That's where the difficulty scale lies within'.

    Not wanting immunites to allow for more build and gear diversity =/= to wanting an easy game with no or little difficulty.

    12/17/2018 03:28 PMPosted by naksiloth
    As I explained in my previous post, high resistances on enemies are an obstacle as well


    When you break their immunity, monsters turn into highly resisted types. That also hints the fight will last longer than you intended if you lack in damage, hence why D2 have synergy system.

    No, they did not implement synergies into D2 because of that, but because they did not like the fact that players were hoarding their skill points for the better, higher level skills and synergies were a implemented as a way to incentivize players to put some of their points into early game skills.

    12/17/2018 03:28 PMPosted by naksiloth
    or simply stay with a single element and accept & deal with the fact that your build will deal significantly less damage against certain enemies that are highly resistant to your element.


    Do you think that doesn't happen despite gearing with conviction and lower rezt when you spec your character for single element? As I said before, resistance break works with 1/5th efficiency on immune monsters; when you break their immunity they hit around 80% resistance or so. You're still only hitting 20% of your damage to the specificly immune monster even after you broke its immunity.

    I am aware of this, but what does this have to do with the point I was making? Apparently you did not understand what I was talking about. My point was that I do not like that you are forced to deal with immunites in the first place, because it lowers the amount of choices you can make with your build and/or your gear and the other reasons I mentioned previously.

    Now, when you only have highly resistant enemies instead of completely immune enemies, you do have more choices in how to deal with them, for example by going dual element as many builds in D2 did. I mentioned others way above, but you have one more way to deal with the obstacle of highly resistant enemies that you do not have with completely immune enemies:

    You can choose to accept that your build will deal noticeably less damage against high resistant enemies, but when you have completely immune enemies, you do not have the choice to ignore the immunity, thereby giving you less choices.
    It is very obvious that "enemy immunity" and the "Single Build" style of D1/D3 do not mix very well.

    I feel that many people are voting for "remove 'enemy immunity'" because of this philosophy.

    Instead, I suggest "remove 'Single Build'".

    example UI:
    Every time you hit the TAB key, you switch to the next build/layout that you have saved in your Armory.

    Say you are running an Ice Build and you come across an ice immune elite. You just need to hit the tab key a few times to load up your physical build. You kill the elite and tab back to your preferred Ice Build.

    Oh .. visual cues regarding the enemy's resistance/immunity is a must.

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