LoN Builds

Wizard
1 2 3 5 Next
Now that Tals has been nerfed and LoN has been buffed, this is just a spec for consideration.
https://ptr.d3planner.com/509767396
It's just LoN Archon Star pact. 2 Arcane swami cycles, a few wasted cycles, archon form on lightning. Also fits Black Hole in easily.

I'm not sure about survivability, but the damage looks fine. Burst damage is quite high. As with most LoN builds, rolls are hard to get.

Other LoN ideas welcome.
**removed** [this was rude]

I somewhat fixed it, could still be better than my fix: https://ptr.d3planner.com/244268836

If someone plays around with it and improves it further id love to see the changes you make so i can make better simulations myself.
**removed** [this was wrong]

Note
These simulations he is doing and as I have done previously are making a big mistake of assuming the mobs are ontop of one another, we should really be testing the numbers with 60ish mobs contained within a 25 yard radius, or something along those lines I believe as that is more realistic scenario in a high gr push. Based on the # of stacks wizards get of wave of force which you can see in the high gr wizard pov videos.
There is many issues with his rotation, but one of the major mistakes hes making is trying to channel ray of frost directly after casting starpact. While this build allows you to do this due to the low cost of ray of frost, its actually a large dps loss, because you still have to get 5 stacks of dynamo, and you dont need to be channeling for the first 1.2+ seconds. By using a primary during this "downtime" you are able to generate half of the dynamo stacks and some of the AP you need for the next cast, resulting in many more starpacts per minute.

For players interested in playing any variant of starpact with arcane dynamo i think this is useful to keep in mind to help optimize your damage
Something like this:
https://ptr.d3planner.com/817341375

Could be used if you wanted to do archon sp but wanted to remain tanky. Swap out karini for arlyse if solo
12/20/2018 11:22 PMPosted by Legendairy
For players interested in playing any variant of starpact with arcane dynamo i think this is useful to keep in mind to help optimize your damage


I've been playing around with the idea of LoN Starpact but never quite sure how well it'll work out. The version I was thinking of did not have Archon tho.

My fear with newly buffed Tal's is that everyone will expect wiz's to be SP build rather than straight channel meteors (with the odd one manually cast every 2-3sec).

It's mostly the timing of Black Hole and AA buff that's annoying for me. Dynamo/SP/Dynamo/SP is much easier but tbh I've not played around with wiz for a long time.

I was reading the SP builds a few days ago and it seemed real janky to set up rotation wise.
LoN Frozen Orb should also make for a pretty decent farming build, at least for T13 and mid-tier super speed GRs.

It gets around some of the annoyances with DMO for bubbles or Tal's for all 4 elements. It'll be stronger than either Tal's FO or DMO FO are in the current patch, e.g. new LoN 1+13*7.5=105 vs. current Tal's F/R FO (1+7.5*4)*2.25=69.75 vs current DMO F/R FO = (1+38)*2.25=87.75.

The class sets will pull ahead in higher GRs because of bigger multipliers with jewelry possibilities, but LoN Frozen Orb should crush anything GR90 or below, without any of the annoying mechanics of Tal's and DMO and some extra utility from gear options.

There should be better options for fast solo 100s, but I think it'll be pretty solid for anything under 90.

Something like this: https://ptr.d3planner.com/347173994
12/21/2018 08:34 AMPosted by TinneOnnMuin
LoN Frozen Orb should also make for a pretty decent farming build


Ya, for sure. I want to make some kind of LoN cold-based farming build that'll let me speed through split bounties/lvl up gems quick in lower GR's.

I just don't think LoN will be quite there yet to compete with sets, minus a few of the classes that have multiple strong support items already; Blessed Shield, Spirit Barrage etc...
Apparently you felt the need to triple post, and I can't seem to hide ignored posts permanently on this stupid forum setup.

12/20/2018 11:05 PMPosted by Legendairy
Gogok of swiftness seems significantly better than bane of the powerful.


FFS No it's not. It's just outscaling it because it gives it more attack speed, which is totally unrealistic and stupid if a person is actually playing the build properly. Hell if you give this simulator Pain Enhancer, the same thing will happen. If you look at the build with BoP (or Zeis, irrelevant), the burst spikes are much higher for each cast, which is generally what matters more for this spec (and any AD-centric specs). It's not the cooldown reduction you're using from gogok, it's the attack speed. So you might as well just equip pain enhancer if you want to go this route.

The whole reason I ignored you was because you talked crap about my "credentials" in the other when you didn't even understand the why I brought up the credentials I brought up, or why they're valid; nor do you actually seem to have enough experience to properly evaluate builds realistically. Textbook example being the stuff I just quoted you spouting above. I have little patience for this type of crap, and especially not some person going on about "credentials" when they have jack for them, themselves. Christ.

Also, I don't care about how you keep perfecting my rotation. I literally don't. I've been keeping this rotation from theorycraft to theorycraft simply to keep the rotations consistent so that each item build idea is directly comparable to the last in terms of skill usage. For this I tried to add black hole in, in the most conservative way possible. Yes, I could sit there with a logic diagram and plan out the perfect rotation. Do I care to? Hell no. It won't match what a person actually doing the grift would do anyway, unless they're using macros. The mobs were mostly irrelevant in that simulation as I literally set it up before I went to sleep just to get an idea of the ballpark the build would be in. I just treated it as a mini fermi problem. The main point of the post was to simply get the build out.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, I'm going to start up a greasemonkey script to get rid of these posts permanently.
12/20/2018 11:05 PMPosted by Legendairy
I know you're ignoring me, so i don't have to be polite anymore lol. Like always, your rotation is trash. But the idea is not bad.


12/20/2018 11:22 PMPosted by Legendairy
because you still have to get 5 stacks of dynamo, and you dont need to be channeling for the first 1.2+ seconds


Tbh, when reading the other thread about Hydra/MH ring I understood what Legendairy was trying to say and imo, your reading comprehension was a bit off there then you almost immediately started getting hostile.

Ex. - About Hydra, I understood what he was saying about the power of it before the nerf and it proccing MH; it wasn't a discussion about people jumping out of the rift with Hydra up. I don't remember every detail now of the other thread but I think this is around when you started to get a bit immature regarding the whole thing.

When it comes to wizards not sure which of you is the better player or more knowledgeable, but again, Legendariy's point about being able to build up a couple Dynamo stacks in down time is a good point and even something I've done in the past to try and pump out more SP's.

12/21/2018 09:30 AMPosted by StoleOwnCar
now that that's out of the way, I'm going to start up a greasemonkey script to get rid of these posts permanently


Not going to tell you what to do and what not to do or who to ignore and speak to, but just keep in mind it is possible to learn new things always from people. Sometime we're not always right and it's better to try and learn/communicate than to lash out at people.

If someone is downright being a @!!*%!%# to you then by all means do/say as you please.
I think you just really misunderstand the situation man. 'Discussions' from a perceived position of authority are not really productive. But if you want to get your bits out and measure, I've been rank 4 US on multiple seasons since season 6 on solo and often top 20 in 2man, particularly in early seasons. But that doesn't make me right, just as your gr progress does not make you right or wrong. What I'm trying to do is assess the merit of ideas and discuss the possibilities man. If you want to get salty or ignore me, go for it, i don't care.

I realize you are not interested in an actual discussion anymore and will try to mindlessly argue against logic because I have somehow offended your honor, but that is ok. I'll try to logically address the issues regardless.

I wont continue to pick on the rotation, but I think its worth noting that the rotation being correct is really important for working out what a build can or cannot do ideally. With the changes i made it nearly tripled the dps. I don't know what you think a ballpark is, but I think the simulations should be closer than 1/3 of what they can actually do if we are to make comparisons. If you took the 100kT as a ballpark, and then used another rotation which wasn't affected by the errors of the first rotation due to alternative spell selection, a second build may come out to 200kT, and you would incorrectly mistake it for being stronger by a very large margin. I think this provides bad info.

As for gogok, you are not correct to say that attack speed doesn't matter, there is a reason wizards used attack speed and had their monks use attack speed aura for their 6 meteors per cycle of coe in previous seasons.
[edited after testing, the attackspeed is allowing two more meteors per minute and solves any accumulative timing errors which can arise from delayed archon entry to allow consistent dual arcane coe phases for meteors]
Ex. - About Hydra, I understood what he was saying about the power of it before the nerf and it proccing MH; it wasn't a discussion about people jumping out of the rift with Hydra up. I don't remember every detail now of the other thread but I think this is around when you started to get a bit immature regarding the whole thing.


I pointed out that the whole reason that people hydra, despite its consistency issues, was because of a bug. He came in and said "I didn't know what I was doing" and that it's why it didn't hit and that my top 100 clear didn't "give me any 'credentials" to say anything, even though the only reason I posted that video was just to show that I knew full well how the burst cycles of TalVyr worked. My viewpoint was also pretty much corroborated by a very high paragon player on EU:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20770666915#post-6

I'm not going to have someone dismissing my empirically supported opinions because some person out of nowhere, with totally questionable amounts of experience, that keeps making mistakes in their perfect simulations, comes in and tells me they're worthless.

Like they:
- Assumed that my rank 80 clear was the highest that I could. On a map where I cleared on FLOOR 8. Then used that to say that I suck at the build, essentially
- Assumed that my "crappy simulation" was the best that I could make, although I've kept this simulation since firebirds archon was even introduced, in another full on theorycraft topic, as a basis for evaluating the baseline of all of my builds. I have long ago admitted it's not perfect.

To me that's at least a little douchy.

When it comes to wizards not sure which of you is the better player or more knowledgeable, but again, Legendariy's point about being able to build up a couple Dynamo stacks in down time is a good point and even something I've done in the past to try and pump out more SP's.


I know full well how the spec operates in practice. And it's nothing like any of the simulators. It depends on latency and a multitude of other issues, and the reason that attack speed makes it even scale in the simulator is because we don't have the second meteor properly being deployed WITHOUT HAVING FULL AP. Which is how everyone does it in practice. There's a reason why people don't use that much attack speed in pushes. That reason is because it's useless. It makes channel times longer due to the delay from deathwish being shorter, and it wastes density faster.

Like even with a good barb, you can't just assume an endless supply of density on each map. You have to make each pack, regardless of health, count for as much as possible when it comes to AD. Only that way can you maybe actually kill an elite. And how do you do that? High burst damage. Not sitting there raining down meteors all the time, and encountering random periodicity issues in channeling timing.

Like believe it or not, I do actually play the build myself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfAY8CImMjA

I don't claim to be perfect at the rotation (far from it in that video), because that's me after taking over a month long break, but I at the very least know how it works. You can see me sometimes intentionally not even finishing rotations because I didn't want to waste density. Simulators are useless when you have to adapt to real game circumstances. That's why all I did was make a simple baseline rotation that at least made use of every skill, so I could directly compare builds, patch to patch. It's not meant to be the best. The best is useless in real situations.

12/21/2018 10:39 AMPosted by PhoenixForce
Not going to tell you what to do and what not to do or who to ignore and speak to, but just keep in mind it is possible to learn new things always from people. Sometime we're not always right and it's better to try and learn/communicate than to lash out at people.


And I know I was being a tad snappy yesterday, but really that just rubbed me the wrong way.
12/21/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Legendairy
The main reason I believe gogok is so good in this specific situation is that in addition to the extra meteors you get during the swami, it significantly reduces the time in which you have no swami stacks.


Except you don't get extra swami stacks. In case you didn't notice, the simulation has the specific condition of only transforming on lightning cycle. To always give you 2 full arcane cycles to overlap with your Swami stacks. Which was kind of the point. Do you know how long your archon downtime is, with Gogok in that spec? 20.79 seconds. Do you know when the next lightning cycle comes out? Still at the exact same time. The extra cooldown reduction does LITERALLY NOTHING. Except maybe let you cast black hole more often. That's it. You can view this happening in the simulator. First transform at 12 seconds, comes out at 32 seconds. Guess when the next transformation is? Exactly 28 seconds later at 1 minute. That Gogok CDR did a whole lot, didn't it?

12/21/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Legendairy
But that doesn't make me right, just as your gr progress does not make you right or wrong.


Except that's exactly what you tried to claim in the other topic, so your point is kind of lost on me here.
See this is what I want, if i make a mistake in my build, which i do all the time because i'm very absent minded, then i want you to call it out reasonably without ranting and raging like a child. I literally said, this is better but not perfect, help me.

You are wrong about the cooldown reduction in the simulation not contributing to the damage increase still, look at what happens to your damage from 5 to 9 minutes, if you look at it, you are missing a slight bit of cooldown reduction and it results in you being pushed slightly further into the arcane cycle with each consecutive archon. The result is that you are not able to land that first meteor in arcane cycle and its not landing until cold.

Now that is not to say that bane of the powerful is not better still actually when I break it down. But the correct response is something along the lines of, 'yes I can see this does more damage, why is it doing more damage, oh its because of falling out of pattern with arcane because i dont have enough cooldown reduction, what implications would this have on my gameplay, how can we address this, would it be best for me to drop one cycle to realign myself to the arcane, should i use one more item with cdr on it so that i can make this work, is it really that hard to just pop archon exactly on the start of lightning every time if i were to take that one more piece with cdr? Is that enough or do i need gogok or a second piece, how close am i to a haste breakpoint, does the gogok privide a net increase in damage from starpact when you consider the number of meteors which land in arcane and those outside, etc etc etc.'

You still misunderstand the post that triggered you.. look, ill try to explain it again but if you dont get it at this point, thats your problem. All i was trying to say is this:
'If you are linking this rank 80 clear and trying to pass it off as I know wtf I am doing and you don't, then you would need a more convincing position on ladder to argue from a position of authority. But regardless, you shouldn't be trying to argue from a position of authority'. I get it, you played it, so did i. I was rank7 that season. I remember the meta being barb wiz monk wd, where the wizard was rgk, not demon hunter as you said it was.
And I should add, I know they were stacking archon with those kills to boost their power, and yeah i know demon hunters were the second best rgks, and yes im sure the top 4mans using wiz where using the bug, but I dont think thats automatic grounds for dismissal, the build did work without those stacks pretty dam consistently in my experience, but it was a long time ago, maybe cognitive bias is blanking out the bad times i had.
12/21/2018 12:31 PMPosted by Legendairy
but it was a long time ago, maybe cognitive bias is blanking out the bad times i had.


Which is a hell of a lot better statement than "you just obviously didn't know what you were doing and this video proves nothing.

12/21/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Legendairy
You are wrong about the cooldown reduction in the simulation not contributing to the damage increase still, look at what happens to your damage from 5 to 9 minutes, if you look at it, you are missing a slight bit of cooldown reduction and it results in you being pushed slightly further into the arcane cycle with each consecutive archon. The result is that you are not able to land that first meteor in arcane cycle and its not landing until cold.


The only reason that happens is because I have it transforming right on top of lightning cycle to oversimplify simulations. The reality is that you would always transform right before lighning cycle, and the simulation is probably finishing up any remaining animations. The cooldown on archon with no gogok in the planner I posted is exactly 27.99 seconds. Which is exactly enough for you to always get in right on lightning cycle. A player shouldn't have issues with this, considering Chantodo speed farm builds were just as demanding back in the day. Even moreso because they often had to keep Gogok up. But one more CDR roll would easily fix this anyway.

You're going to have to point out what account you're alting for, because I don't see you on any seasonal solo or 4p boards, 7-8 seasons back.
A player shouldn't have issues with this, considering Chantodo speed farm builds were just as demanding back in the day

Exactly my thoughts, but some people think that is hard for some reason.

So... the attack speed with gogok just so happens to align such that my cast animation is finishing earlier and therefore not delaying my archon ever (or it is, but its only delaying it one magnitude each time i guess because of the increased cdr). Ok, so if we make the primary casting adjustment to your sim, we add back the AP you are missing from offhand or helm (can't remember which) and paragon, and then we put a condition on your rotation to prevent casting anything when cd remaining on archon <#. The we might be able to see better results with bane of the powerful. Or atleast we will be able to compare to how you could actually play it and then we can see if the haste is better if we ignore any casting delays (ie, just spam meteor at full ap and 5 dynamo). Then to be thorough we/I should probably look at the attackspeed breakpoints and see if I can reasonably expect to get any additional casts with the proposed changes. I should also add conditions so that meteor is not cast too early in lightning to make sure it lands 2 in arcane cycle every time, as this delay might negate any benefit of haste. But equally so it might not, I just havent looked at it close enough. Attackspeed breakpoints can be really important, so to flat out say attackspeed is worthless without checking thoroughly first i think is a mistake, particularly when the damage difference between our sims is so vast. In my mind, it cant only be the fact that you were not simulating the downtime dynamo stacks and the compounding clipping, can it? the difference is too large surely.

My account got banned so I cant. I'm not going to lie about it, I was botting for keys so when i got home from school I could do what i found fun and just push solo without having the annoyance of needing to farm more keys all the time. Frown if you want, but grinding keys was boring. Despite botting for keys, i was never very high on paragon because i didnt play enough, and never played efficient paragon farming setups back in the day.

^^For those who don't like botting, dont worry, I farm my own keys now. I have a lot more patience than i use to
To be honest, i didnt even bother to look at your cdr values, i just looked at the graph and saw the decreasing bars and knew it was being caused by not consistently hitting cycle. So i just drop down menu swapped to gogok and boom, instantly resolved. I should have looked closer at the issue.
I'm on a phone (a Windows phone, so especially handicapped!), so it's challenging to look at does like d3 planner.

How are you going to channel with Starpact without something like Hergbrash's binding? You have to wear or cube the Archon belt. And since you're using Archon, you're probably using Leorics for CDR too? But you need to wear or cube Swami.

Cindercoat will give you a 30% cheaper Flameward, but it's still pretty expensive even with Power of the Storm.

I've been playing LoN Archon/Meteor since the last major patch and I never did figure out a way to make Starpact work well for my play style. Since I went out of my way to get ~70% CDR, I just play Molten Impact. Even with Halo of Karini and LoN damage reduction, I have some trouble surviving out of Archon. Molten Impact allows me to deal some major damage without needing to stand around too long taking damage.

Perhaps in groups, a Starpact variant can survive better. And with a trash killer helping, you can build some serious Archon stacks.
12/21/2018 02:32 PMPosted by nslay
How are you going to channel with Starpact without something like Hergbrash's binding?


That's a pretty basic star pact question, but you only channel for like maybe a split second before it drops. Take a look at the video I posted earlier in the topic of me doing a 2p run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfAY8CImMjA

Basically you throw the meteor, get some AP with your primary, and then channel for a very short duration and you're done. There's a delay on when the deathwish bonus goes off, and it's attack speed dependent. At higher attack speeds, you need to channel longer. Seems to be animation time related.
Starpact is the trash killer, its the only thing starpact wiz is in the team. Just to clarify, you just need to be channeling when the meteor hits the ground as that is when the damage is calculated, no need to be casting before or after it has landed.

Thats interesting to hear that youre struggling, I think it will be best suited to group if its playable because you dont have a way to trigger apds by yourself with this spec unless you want to drop alot of damage and go with arlyse or change tact and use karini ring. Have you tried 2 3 or 4man with it?

You didnt say you weren't but just in case anyone else is reading this and is wondering how to use starpact or not dealing massive damage the usual culprit is not landing the meteors with the channel active / the meteor is not making contact during the arcane cycle / not having 5 stacks of arcane dynamo before casting meteor / or not having much arcane power when casting meteor. With all of those conditions met, starpact damage skyrockets and is much better than molten impact. There is a really good guide for fresh starpact users on the youtuber with the viking helmets channel... ugghhh... Dropaduski is his name.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum