#MakeDiabloDarkFantasyRPGAgain - What D4 needs

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Casts per day and cooldown are not the same.


Pretty sure they are pretty much the same, I mean you need to finish a long rest to cast it again, hence, it's on cooldown until then.
01/20/2019 11:14 AMPosted by Rashiel
Pretty sure they are pretty much the same, I mean you need to finish a long rest to cast it again, hence, it's on cooldown until then.

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No, imagine an molotov cocktail.

- Have no more molotovs and need to craft is similar to casts/day
- Have infinite molotovs but only be able to trow one each X seconds is a cooldown.

- Your dog being exausted and need to rest is similar to casts/day
- Be able to order your dog only one time per minute is similar to cooldown

On Dark Souls, if i can cast 4 crystal soul spears, i can trow then all in a row, is not trow an crystal soul spear, now wait X seconds to trow another.
But having a spell/ability that can only be used once per day is like putting it on cooldown, until that cooldown has been reached either through time or rest, it won't reset.

Since the game isn't using casting time, cooldowns were added to counter that by limiting the player a bit.

You can argue it by saying that certain abilities take too much of a toll on the character, so the player needs to recharge (also a factor of the spell wish in dnd), or be that the player is prepping his/hers next line of grenades that they want to throw.

Whatever it is, they can be fitting lore wise, but they can ofcourse be done badly in some cases, army of the dead is one such case. But the whole principal behind it isn't wrong, neither are casts per day, it's just that said game limiting power so it can't be spammed.
Yet you're wasting time complaining. You know who you who ya remind me of? A rules-lawyer/mechanic in our gaming group who had to have things either his way or the highway. So one night, he had a hollering with our G.M. and stormed out. So why is this your sad attempt for attention, by complaining all the time? Why not just 'storm out' of this game forum and play something else, for a change?
01/19/2019 12:06 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Longbows in the story required tons of strength


Well, you'd be relieved to know D2 had strength as a requirement to carry and use bows but only dexterity affected ranged weapon damage. In D3 only they're replaced by level only.

Casts per day and cooldown are not the same.


They're pretty similar. You have to sleep until next day to cast it again for instance.

01/20/2019 11:20 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
No, imagine an molotov cocktail.


Due to intended combat pace, developers made all characters feel the inner magic for balance reasons. Also bad example. There were Fulminating Potions back in D2 and all you had to was buying them from vendors after an instant town portal cast.

01/20/2019 11:20 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Have infinite molotovs but only be able to trow one each X seconds is a cooldown.


Alright let's go with that instead; that's balance and game logic again.

If such skill has a cooldown then said shot have lower damage than intended, for satisfactory reasons for players to keep combat pace. That can be about projectile velocity, blast radius being kept short and it being harder to aim with arcing shot.

01/20/2019 11:20 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
- Your dog being exausted and need to rest is similar to casts/day


Your dog can feel tired, they're not race horses which run non-stop then die of exhaust. May be dog have a feral spirit within' and you can not tell about it. Same can apply to your damn Golem if they're a part of a hivemind entity. It's a game.

Not dark in therms of hard to see.


That means "contrast", not "dark" at all.

That means that even without the passive, they will survive a lot.


Summon Resist will see a few points too then.

On D3 both skills will be just 2 minute cooldown skills...


Because combat pace.

Immagine if the next Dr Strange movie becomes an citycom...


We're in 2019, in the recent years some cartoons became a complete nonsense without creativity rather than having some nice moral messages or being wacky adult based comedy. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened too.
Diablo IV was originally a Souls-like, over-the-shoulder game, says report
source > https://www.videogamer.com/news/diablo-iv-was-originally-a-souls-like-over-the-shoulder-game-says-report

If this is truth, i really hope that D4 learns with good over the shoulder games instead of picking mechanics from generic mmos. I don't care much about difficulty, probably if this rumor is truth, D4 will not be that difficulty but if D4 takes what DkS did right on itemization, character progression, attributes, etc and don't put the boring platforming of Sen's fortress or Bed of Chaos and let spell casters aim with their spells, instead of rely on a lockon mechanic it will be an masterpiece.

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01/20/2019 11:42 AMPosted by Rashiel
But having a spell/ability that can only be used once per day is like putting it on cooldown,


No, is not. In one case you ran out of power and needs to rest to regain power(makes sense) in other, you can use your power only from other stuff

01/20/2019 11:42 AMPosted by Rashiel
army of the dead is one such case


Army of the dead can works like PoE Vaal skills aka you need to harvest a lot of souls to use.

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Well, you'd be relieved to know D2 had strength as a requirement to carry and use bows but only dexterity affected ranged weapon damage. In D3 only they're replaced by level only.


And where i've said that D2 is perfect? D2 have a lot of problems. Nothing is perfect on this world. Also, i don't play with java/bow zons on D2 exactly because i believe that archery isn't proper done in the game. This doens't means that the game din't did an amazing job on other areas. There are 7 classes to play, only because i don't wanna play with one or two...

01/20/2019 12:17 PMPosted by naksiloth
Because combat pace.


Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma are very fast combat games.

01/20/2019 12:17 PMPosted by naksiloth
We're in 2019, in the recent years some cartoons became a complete nonsense without creativity rather than having some nice moral messages or being wacky adult based comedy. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened too.

[/quote]

Yes, but you got my point. An game should't change from one genre to completely another. This doesn't means that innovation isn't welcomed. Innovation is introducing something new, taking mechanics from mmo that aRPG players tends to hate is not good. Mainly when you consider that MMO's are a genre in decline.
01/19/2019 05:30 PMPosted by Orrion
bow and more concerned with how fast and accurately you're able to shoot it.


Dex should make you load faster but if someone without a great strenght tries to use an British longbow, he will be unable to fully draw the bow.


Okay, but... are we seriously criticizing games have monsters and demons and magic and dragons and such for their lack of realism in archery?

At some point you have to realize that's a little silly. We're talking about mortals who gain supernatural abilities anyway, so just assume they all have "great strength." Or at least "strength enough to draw a bow."

01/19/2019 05:30 PMPosted by Orrion
so that's at least 25+ animated minions


Your revive mobs won't last few seconds while on D2 they last for 180 seconds. In fact, only considering revived monsters, someone with 20 skill level on revive, an torch(+3) and an +3 from the gear can have 26 revived monsters from 180 secs.

Adds skeleton + mages to the equasion…


And your point is...? Even without Revive in the equation I can get 18 minions. If that ain't enough for you then play something else or get the bleep over it. Not every iteration of a Necromancer has to have a freaking army of undead that lasts forever and does your work for you.

01/19/2019 05:30 PMPosted by Orrion
I mean, someone that's 90+ in D2 or 85+ in PoE or close to 100 in Grim Dawn is at their peak capability for all intents and purposes. Every important skill to whatever build is being played has long since been acquired


This in any game. Most games have diminishing returns from skill investments in order to reduce/remove power creep.


Okay, so.. what's the problem?

01/19/2019 05:30 PMPosted by Orrion
I don't see what difference it makes.


Again, be unable to trow an grenade because you wasted all is ok. Be unable to trow for X seconds is not OK.


Sure it is, as long as it's reasonable.

That's the problem with you and cooldowns. You want to harp on the bad examples like the golem in D3 and act like that's the only kind of cooldown in existence. Get this through your head: ANY balancing mechanic can be implemented badly.

01/19/2019 05:30 PMPosted by Orrion
So what if D1 did that? Should we be okay with pornographic games on the consoles, just because Atari had unregulated !@#$ games? I'd say no.


No, mature and adults only are two different things on game ratting. Be considered AO really hurts sales since many stores refuses to sell AO games. But Diablo 1/2 are considered "mature", not adults only despite the gore, half nudity, etc


D3 is also rated mature. And unless you think things like traveling through a gigantic 3-story torture chamber of a raving mass murderer (and witnessing a beheading in the jail) and blowing enemies apart in various ways is appropriate for a child, then you should agree with that rating.

Casts per day and cooldown are not the same.


It's a larger-scale version of the same thing.. and it's not like the limitation is any better explained or justified than the average cooldown is, which is one of your gripes about it.
Okay, but... are we seriously criticizing games have monsters and demons and magic and dragons and such for their lack of realism in archery?


On Demon Souls they require STR. And an longbow just requires 15 STR, not exactly superhuman... About fantasy, fantasy should have consistency. If you took electric damage by being hit by an boulder, it will make no sense. If magma can freeze you, it will make no sense. This in any fantasy setting.

Not every iteration of a Necromancer has to have a freaking army of undead that lasts forever and does your work for you.


They don't last forever. Your revived monsters live up to 180 secs for eg. But D2 had one of the best necro implementation of the aRPG genre.

That's the problem with you and cooldowns. You want to harp on the bad examples like the golem in D3 and act like that's the only kind of cooldown in existence. Get this through your head: ANY balancing mechanic can be implemented badly.


Some mechanics restrict more freedom and are more immersion breaking than others.

01/20/2019 12:59 PMPosted by Orrion
And unless you think things like traveling through a gigantic 3-story torture chamber of a raving mass murderer (and witnessing a beheading in the jail) and blowing enemies apart in various ways is appropriate for a child, then you should agree with that rating.


"'There’s a lot of people who felt like Diablo 3 got away from what made Diablo Diablo in terms of art style and spell effects,' one Blizzard source told the site. 'They want to make [Fenris] gross, make it dark, [get rid of] anything that was considered cartoony in Diablo 3… Make what people were afraid of in Diablo 2, but modern.'" https://www.videogamer.com/news/diablo-iv-was-originally-a-souls-like-over-the-shoulder-game-says-report

01/20/2019 12:59 PMPosted by Orrion
It's a larger-scale version of the same thing.


No, is not. Look to soul spear on DkS1.

I can attune 2 slots and have 8 casts / rest or only one and have 4 casts / rest, i can save then to trow all at once in a hard boss or can waste. After trowing, i can only "regain" the power to trow an soul spear by resting at the bonefire, can spend all day on AFK and will not "recharge".
01/20/2019 02:36 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Okay, but... are we seriously criticizing games have monsters and demons and magic and dragons and such for their lack of realism in archery?


On Demon Souls they require STR. And an longbow just requires 15 STR, not exactly superhuman... About fantasy, fantasy should have consistency. If you took electric damage by being hit by an boulder, it will make no sense. If magma can freeze you, it will make no sense. This in any fantasy setting.


The fantasy setups you're talking about DO have consistency with respect to bows, yet you're criticizing anyway because it's not realistic.

So what are you after here? Realism or consistency?

Not every iteration of a Necromancer has to have a freaking army of undead that lasts forever and does your work for you.


They don't last forever. Your revived monsters live up to 180 secs for eg. But D2 had one of the best necro implementation of the aRPG genre.


I notice you didn't contest the "does your work for you" part. And 3 minutes is forever within the context of how long most abilities last.

That's the problem with you and cooldowns. You want to harp on the bad examples like the golem in D3 and act like that's the only kind of cooldown in existence. Get this through your head: ANY balancing mechanic can be implemented badly.


Some mechanics restrict more freedom and are more immersion breaking than others.


You haven't ever managed to prove that cooldowns are more restrictive or immersion breaking than other mechanics. All you've ever really done is taken examples of where cooldowns really are done wrong and complain about those.

01/20/2019 12:59 PMPosted by Orrion
And unless you think things like traveling through a gigantic 3-story torture chamber of a raving mass murderer (and witnessing a beheading in the jail) and blowing enemies apart in various ways is appropriate for a child, then you should agree with that rating.


"'There’s a lot of people who felt like Diablo 3 got away from what made Diablo Diablo in terms of art style and spell effects,' one Blizzard source told the site. 'They want to make [Fenris] gross, make it dark, [get rid of] anything that was considered cartoony in Diablo 3… Make what people were afraid of in Diablo 2, but modern.'" https://www.videogamer.com/news/diablo-iv-was-originally-a-souls-like-over-the-shoulder-game-says-report


I don't need an article to tell me what to think, and what I think is that the art style and spell effects in D3 are fine.

I grant you the story was a pile of baloney, but I have zero issues with the visuals.

01/20/2019 12:59 PMPosted by Orrion
It's a larger-scale version of the same thing.


No, is not. Look to soul spear on DkS1.

I can attune 2 slots and have 8 casts / rest or only one and have 4 casts / rest, i can save then to trow all at once in a hard boss or can waste. After trowing, i can only "regain" the power to trow an soul spear by resting at the bonefire, can spend all day on AFK and will not "recharge".


You do know what sleep is, don't you? It's how humans "recharge."
The story in every Diablo except 3 was thrown on at the end. There was an interview with Brezick where he even said it. D3 started with the story, and built the game around it.

Is it the best story? Nope. Am I apt to play it again on any character? Nope. But the story, to me, isn't the game. The game is the loot hunt, the killing of demons, and the company of my wife(Marriage that slays together stays together, right?). It's fun. The excitement of screaming "GOBLIN!" and chasing that little anklebiter across the map is fun and exhilarating.

Basically, if this game isn't for you then my advise: Move on to one that is.
The fantasy setups you're talking about DO have consistency with respect to bows, yet you're criticizing anyway because it's not realistic.


Demon souls had consistency with bows IRL in therms of requirements
Dark Souls doesn't have.

Dark Souls is a amazing game but again, nothing is perfect. Is probably the best modern action RPG in the market.

If you took something from Norse mitology, it should be consistent with norse mitology. If you take something from IRL, it should be consistent with the real world. Longbows exists. Most armors in DkS games are very IRL-like armor. Same with weapons. Sure, it have some differences but Gargoyle's Halberd(fantasy weapon) is not that unrealistic if compared to normal IRL Halberds, even an Giant's Halberd(fantasy weapon) makes sense. The major difference is that the "gigantic weapon" require superhuman strength(36) to be used

Here is an interesting video > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXGns-R8KkM

And 3 minutes is forever within the context of how long most abilities last.


No, 3 minutes is not forever. Takes much more than 3 minutes to do an chaos sanctuary run.

You haven't ever managed to prove that cooldowns are more restrictive or immersion breaking than other mechanics. All you've ever really done is taken examples of where cooldowns really are done wrong and complain about those.


No, i showed that everything who is balanced with cooldown can be better balanced without it.

I don't need an article to tell me what to think, and what I think is that the art style and spell effects in D3 are fine.


Well, is a direct quote showing that a lot of people have problem with cartoonish graphics on diablo. Cartoonish graphics are fine on Overwatch, on MOBAs, etc. I just think that an game named "diablo" should't have cartoonish graphics.

At the same way that Mario Kart should't have project CARS-like graphics.

01/20/2019 03:34 PMPosted by Orrion
You do know what sleep is, don't you? It's how humans "recharge."


Depends the story in question. At the same way that an muscle can be hurting after i work out and stop hurting afters an rest, the same could apply to this supernatural abilities.
Realism or consistency?


None, he's here to whine only because he thinks it is funny.
I guess I have always failed to see the so-called "cartoonish" graphics. The only example people have thrown at me is that a rainbow doesn't belong in Diablo because it's too colorful, or there are too many colors.

You think the middle ages didn't have color? That the gothic periods of history didn't have color?
01/20/2019 04:20 PMPosted by naksiloth
None, he's here to whine only because he thinks it is funny.


And is not funny? I can be discussing and having fun or waiting loading screens on other games or doing nothing.

01/20/2019 04:47 PMPosted by Sylvax
I guess I have always failed to see the so-called "cartoonish" graphics. The only example people have thrown at me is that a rainbow doesn't belong in Diablo because it's too colorful, or there are too many colors.


No, look to most D3 sets. They look like more armor or a carnival suit?

01/20/2019 04:47 PMPosted by Sylvax
You think the middle ages didn't have color? That the gothic periods of history didn't have color?

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This is an neo gothic cathedral that i've visited by myself > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Diocese_of_San_Carlos_de_Bariloche#/media/File:Catedral_de_San_Carlos_de_Bariloche_Nuestra_Se%C3%B1ora_del_Nahuel_Huapi.JPG

But look to armor/weapons on d2 and compare to d3, not only buildings.

This is an crossbow in D3 http://i.imgur.com/leHQ519.png

Compare to crossbows on diablo 2, even a very fantasy like crossbow > https://diablo.gamepedia.com/File:Hellcast_(Diablo_II).gif
01/20/2019 11:20 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
- Have infinite molotovs but only be able to trow one each X seconds is a cooldown.

So you conveniently ignore the fact you have to get the Molotov cocktail out of whatever container they are in and need to be lit. Or are they all lit and go off at the same time as the first one and blow you to kingdom come with those infinite cocktails you have
01/20/2019 02:36 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
This in any fantasy setting.

What part of fantasy don't you understand. Real life does not need to apply
Lordvictor really needs to visit westmarsh commons and flog those dead horses


...

No, is not. Look to soul spear on DkS1.

I can attune 2 slots and have 8 casts / rest or only one and have 4 casts / rest, i can save then to trow all at once in a hard boss or can waste. After trowing, i can only "regain" the power to trow an soul spear by resting at the bonefire, can spend all day on AFK and will not "recharge".


You do know what sleep is, don't you? It's how humans "recharge."
Also, resting has no place in Diablo. Its a fast paced game even when it was slower. Cooldown is fine. Also charges like on dashing strike and furious charge and sentries is fine. You are playing the wrong genre if you want to complain about that.
So you conveniently ignore the fact you have to get the Molotov cocktail out of whatever container they are in and need to be lit. Or are they all lit and go off at the same time as the first one and blow you to kingdom come with those infinite cocktails you have


Again, you need to pick then from your inventory. You can add an animation to pick, similar to the taking eastus flask animation on Dark Souls.

People here are so used to cooldowns that looks like never played an game without this boring mechanic...

01/20/2019 07:09 PMPosted by Steve
What part of fantasy don't you understand. Real life does not need to apply


Yes, i will love to see if George R. R. Martin next book have pink ponies swimming into lava and being frozen by the magma. If someone decides to study and copy the Night King's magic, creates an order and everyone in this order is equally in magical power, strength, dexterity, etc and both the weakest apprentice to the strongest master have exactly the same power. Only their big and sharp axe determines how strong his reanimation or ice spear will be. George should remove all adult content on his novel too. It will certain be the best fantasy book ever. /SARCASM

01/20/2019 08:50 PMPosted by UngivenFame
Also, resting has no place in Diablo. Its a fast paced game even when it was slower. Cooldown is fine. Also charges like on dashing strike and furious charge and sentries is fine. You are playing the wrong genre if you want to complain about that.

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Diablo 1 - no cooldown
Diablo 2 - few high CPU/GPU intensive skills have small cooldowns

Most modern aclaimed games by their combat like DD and DkS have no cooldown. Is just my impression or people here never played an game without cooldown?
01/20/2019 09:12 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Most modern aclaimed games by their combat like DD and DkS have no cooldown.


Generally speaking, CDs can work because they force you to do a rotation instead of spamming one single thing for thousands of hours. It worked fine for Tera: Rising (excellent combat system). I remember playing a sorcerer felt like trying to be a pianist (and dual wield warriors were even more coordination and concentration demanding). It worked, most skills had a place.
Main attacks, fillers, boosters, escapes/blocking and situational skills. Very complete. It took a lot of practice to get the most out of your character.

There's not a definite formula. It's either done right or wrong, case by case and opinions may vary. Don't blindly and universally hate on CDs. It's narrow sighted.
01/20/2019 09:53 PMPosted by TobiasPeste
CDs can work because they force you to do a rotation instead of spamming one single thing for thousands of hours


And why spam the same rotation is ok but spam the same skill is not??

About tera, is an mmo. Diablo is an arpg. I like much more the idea of switch to another skill cuz it is better than switch because i an being forced. On arpgs, isometric or not, there are much more things to consider in few time since you fight more enemies, deals and take much more damage. Constant watch an bar to see what of my skills i can cast is really silly IMO.

On Diablo 2 i playing as a necromancer uses tons of different skills. Bone spear for lines, bone spirit for single target, ia curses, decrepify on bosses, corpse explosion, revive for mobile meatshields, bone wall/bone prison to control the battlefield, clay golem or iron depending if i have an good item to sacrifice or not, etc, etc, etc; i don't spam the same skill over and over again.

On Dark Souls, Soul Spear is a high damage spell but i will not waste it on weak mobs since per slot i can only casts 4/rest. At my end of play trough, i managed to have 8 soul spears and 4 crystal soul spears. Even at end game, it won't become spammable.

On Dragon's Dogma, i can't spam sacrificial bolt since it have casting time, requires an sacrifice and dark resistant enemies will soak most of the damage.
01/20/2019 10:50 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
And why spam the same rotation is ok but spam the same skill is not??

Because just smashing 1 button without thought gets real boring real fast as opposed to putting at least some thought into what you are doing

01/20/2019 09:12 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Again, you need to pick then from your inventory. You can add an animation to pick, similar to the taking eastus flask animation on Dark Souls

still takes time to do it aka cooldown
e.g. grabbing a cocktail lighting the fuse and throwing it can take 3 seconds in real time, therefore there is a 3 second cooldown between throws to take into consideration the actual time it really takes to perform the function instead of throwing 15 cocktails in the same 3 seconds because you can smash 1 single key that many times in those 3 seconds
So Mr immersion that can't have cooldowns what is more believable having a 3 sec cooldown for realistics sake or to throw 15 in 3 seconds and break immersion because there is no way you could throw 15 in 3 seconds

Yes, i will love to see if George R. R. Martin next book have pink ponies swimming into lava and being frozen by the magma.

Still can't grasp the meaning of fantasy can you, just because lava burns us in reality does not mean that it works the exact same way in the fantasy world, for all we know that's lava and magma freezes you in their world, instead of burning you like they do here. Noone, except maybe you said that all fantasy worlds are the same as all the others.

01/20/2019 09:12 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Diablo 1 - no cooldown

Having to sit around and wait for my mana to build up sure feels like a cooldown to me, even if you want to call it something different, it all amounts to the same thing of waiting around before you can cast it again, especially if you have run out of mana and have to wait 5 seconds for your mana to build up before you have enough mana to cast it again, and we are talking about the warrior and rogue NOT the wizard, with the wizard it's reversed because your belt is full of mana potions instead of health potions, so with the wizard you take a hit and run away for x amount of time to regain your health

01/20/2019 10:50 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
On Diablo 2 i playing as a necromancer uses tons of different skills. Bone spear for lines, bone spirit for single target, ia curses, decrepify on bosses, corpse explosion, revive for mobile meatshields, bone wall/bone prison to control the battlefield, clay golem or iron depending if i have an good item to sacrifice or not, etc, etc, etc; i don't spam the same skill over and over again.

no you just rotate the same skills you have instead of just 1, D3 gives you 4 skills to play with so stop making out you only use one
and a skill with only 1 skill point is virtually useless at hell level

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