#MakeDiabloDarkFantasyRPGAgain - What D4 needs

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01/20/2019 10:50 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
And why spam the same rotation is ok but spam the same skill is not??


01/20/2019 09:53 PMPosted by TobiasPeste
There's not a definite formula. It's either done right or wrong, case by case and opinions may vary.


Since you seem to know quite a number of games, did you play a game called 'Severance: Blade of Darkness' back in early 2000s? Which character did/would you enjoy the most: the barbarian (skill chains with multiple combo stages and windups) or the amazon (plain 'single' moves)? The barb and the knight were definitely better designed than the amazon or the dwarf (rushed characters with fewer and unconnected moves, probably because of dev time constrains).

Rotations are less important for isometric 'mass killing' combat, I'd agree there. But since you brought DS I had to go with other '3D combat styles' too. They successfully used cooldown mechanics or combo chaining (it's not the same but both work similar and are more complete and engaging than single spam, IMO), proving it's not intrinsically bad design itself and it's not strictly tied to a certain game genre.

Also note that 'MMO' refers to player interaction and has nothing to do with the combat style, character control or combat style.
Mentions to 'realism' and 'immersion' have some relevance but you give it a bit too much.

I still mostly agree with your recurrent preaching. I'm afraid if there's ever another Diablo game, we'll be both very disappointed.
Pretty much anything can be argued for, on one side you have dark souls with limited charges of healing potion, diablo 1 and 2 with unlimited (as many as you can fit in your inventory) and d3 with cooldown, all change how you plan ahead, all viable, all explainable.

It's a fantasy world, you can make up how it fits in the world you play. The key thing is that it should fit the game play of the game.

One thing though is that you always need restrictions in game, be that high cost or cooldown, you need the player to feel that they have to make a choice depending on the circumstance.

Of course, you can make a game without cooldown, but it doesn't mean that they're bad, it just mean that is the route they went to balance things.
01/20/2019 04:12 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
The fantasy setups you're talking about DO have consistency with respect to bows, yet you're criticizing anyway because it's not realistic.


Demon souls had consistency with bows IRL in therms of requirements
Dark Souls doesn't have.


Dark Souls has consistency, it just doesn’t have complete realism.

Again, which are you after? Consistency or realism?

If you took something from Norse mitology, it should be consistent with norse mitology. If you take something from IRL, it should be consistent with the real world. Longbows exists. Most armors in DkS games are very IRL-like armor. Same with weapons. Sure, it have some differences but Gargoyle's Halberd(fantasy weapon) is not that unrealistic if compared to normal IRL Halberds, even an Giant's Halberd(fantasy weapon) makes sense. The major difference is that the "gigantic weapon" require superhuman strength(36) to be used


You didn’t think this through very well.

Armor is taken from real life, yes. However, most armor in games like that gives stat boosts. That’s not realistic. You’ve also stated Dark Souls has a ton of outfits and such. As do many other games. Do you really think that’s realistic? Armor wasn’t made to look good (unless it was ceremonial, which often made it useless for real combat) - it was made to protect you.

So there you go. Armor is an example taken from real life but not treated with as much realism as it could be.

And 3 minutes is forever within the context of how long most abilities last.


No, 3 minutes is not forever. Takes much more than 3 minutes to do an chaos sanctuary run.


I dont recall you asking me if I agreed that Chaos Sanctuary runs were the standard when measuring ability times (I don’t).

You haven't ever managed to prove that cooldowns are more restrictive or immersion breaking than other mechanics. All you've ever really done is taken examples of where cooldowns really are done wrong and complain about those.


No, i showed that everything who is balanced with cooldown can be better balanced without it.


That’s a nice bit of self-delusion you’ve got going on there. You showed nothing of the kind. All you did was whine and moan that cooldowns are bad.

Well, is a direct quote showing that a lot of people have problem with cartoonish graphics on diablo.


Thank the gods I’m able to form my own opinions. I don’t care what “a lot of people” have a problem with.

Cartoonish graphics are fine on Overwatch, on MOBAs, etc. I just think that an game named "diablo" should't have cartoonish graphics.


The only graphics I consider cartoonish in D3 are the ponies - and I’m smart enough to realize the ponies and the bears and their level were meant to be an over-the-top thing made for laughs and not to be taken seriously.

01/20/2019 03:34 PMPosted by Orrion
You do know what sleep is, don't you? It's how humans "recharge."


Depends the story in question. At the same way that an muscle can be hurting after i work out and stop hurting afters an rest, the same could apply to this supernatural abilities.


Exactly. They’re mind-based, so guess what you need to recharge to use them again. Your mind. Guess what recharges your mind. Sleep.
And is not funny? I can be discussing and having fun or waiting loading screens on other games or doing nothing.


...Or you could've played Dark Souls instead of stirring crap for the umpteenth time.

You're talking about fantasy games where main character gulps a potion to heal sword cuts and festering claw wounds and burns from magic missiles. How can I take you serious when you can not draw a line somewhere between reality and consistency yet criticise games for not being realistic? They're games, they have satisfactory and fun factors in it.

After a while it should've stop being funny but look how many of these threads have you opened in a month? Are you even having fun from playing games? May be you grew outta it?
TobiasPeste i din't played that game. About immersion, i believe that most people who play RPG's wanna feel themselves in another world. I know, i probably have less suspension of disbelief from gaming but apparently most people have a pretty dan high suspension of disbelief from gaming

Dark Souls has consistency, it just doesn’t have complete realism.


No game is 100% realistic. Even ArmA 3 with in depth ballistic mechanics and bullet penetration is 100% realistic. My point is, if you bring something from an particular myth, it should be consistent with the myth, if you bring something from IRL, it should be consistent with IRL(not an clone), gaming should be immersive as movies.

For examples, vampires. Are an slavic folklore creature. Should work like it. See how fairy vampires from twilight was severely criticized. I can imagine an movie/book/serie using the same lore and "mechanics" as VtMB can works pretty well, using D2 too with few adaptations. But using D3 will not make any sense.

However, most armor in games like that gives stat boosts. That’s not realistic. You’ve also stated Dark Souls has a ton of outfits and such. As do many other games. Do you really think that’s realistic? Armor wasn’t made to look good (unless it was ceremonial, which often made it useless for real combat) - it was made to protect you.


But armor is consistent. Should't be 100% realistic but should't be completely BS.

If on Dark Souls an dagger becomes better to fight plate armor than an halberd, it will be awful. Unless there are an good lore explanation to that like how magic works in the souls universe. If you bring unrealistic elements to armor/weapon in question, then the armor should be consistent with the unrealistic things that you brought. Bring an fire magical enchanted axe that deals cold and blunt damage is a silly idea.

On most movies, Mjölnir is very accurate if compared to Norse Mythology. If Mjölnir becomes an spear that works completely different than Mjölnir, why bring Mjölnir in your novel/movie/game?

About armor with stat boost, it is half true realistic. But on D2 only magical/better armor can do that

01/21/2019 07:41 AMPosted by naksiloth
...Or you could've played Dark Souls instead of stirring crap for the umpteenth time.


I already finished the game. Will try another completely different build. This is who an RPG should be. My character is not a blank clone that only wears different gear.

01/21/2019 07:41 AMPosted by naksiloth
You're talking about fantasy games where main character gulps a potion to heal sword cuts and festering claw wounds and burns from magic missiles. How can I take you serious when you can not draw a line somewhere between reality and consistency yet criticise games for not being realistic?


Again. I already answered this points. People accept magical healing in many movies, books, etc. My point is not that games should be IRL, is that games should be like books. If something like stats linked towards gear makes no sense in any book fiction, it should't be in any game.

In a fictional world where there are an magical energy that can heal cuts, makes sense that it can heal you. At the same way that an fire golem being healed by fire makes sense with the in world lore, but having an game where an fire golem can be healed from fire(D2), someone burning the fire golem to the death makes no sense. Is inconsistent with the world's lore and what an fire golem fantasy is supposed to be.

An vampire being healed by the sun will makes no sense in any movie/book/series. But people will probably accept it on D3. In fact, when an teenager book was very inconsistent with vampire myth(twilight) and made vampires that sparkling on sun, it becomes an meme.

People accept much more inconsistency in gaming and accepts much more completely BS business practices too.

-------------------------------

I wonder if is an strawman or people din't understood.

Imagine an Diablo-based novel. An novel where the sorcerer becomes stronger by reading tomes like D1 makes sense. An series where he becomes stronger by finding an bigger and sharper axe(D3) will makes no sense and will be the new "sun sparkling vampire" meme, people will gonna joke about it.

Why with video games people accept it?
01/21/2019 08:17 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Why with video games people accept it?


Cause it's video games, simple...

Games are made to be an escape from reality.

That's why we can accept minor things, minor faults, and still enjoy the game. If the whole weapon damage thing breaks your whole perception of a game, then you cant let go of minor things. If this is what breaks it for you, I cant see you enjoying any game at all, every game has small details that breaks "immersion".

Having weapon damage makes just about as much sense as finding a skillbook, reading it and instantly knowing a spell which you haven't put down time and effort to learn, you just know it, poof! Also, why the same team who designed that, suddenly change the whole thing into you killing a mob, then suddenly you gain a skill point, attaining knowledge in the middle of a swamp, learning an ability that you never had before.

You can delve deeper into other games, poe uses abilities through gems, meaning that the big sturdy warrior doesn't know how to swing his axe around him until he found a specific gem, does it make sense, of course not!, but that doesn't make the game bad, it's just how they went around balancing the system in that game.

In Baldur's gate, cleric, druids and paladins have all their spells known from the get-go, but wizards has to find books, buy them and learn them (which can also fail, funny that). The whole game is based on turns, meaning that you can just spam things because it costs a turn, adding a certain cooldown element to the whole game (trying popping several potions in a row, you get what I mean).

See every game has these things that work in the game, but it may not make sense in other games, all these games have major differences that seperate them, but that doesn't make for a bad game, each has their own unique flavor.

D3 is subectivly fun, meaning that some will enjoy it, others not, that one I will accept, but dont bring statments about what a game should be like, when even the first 2 titles in the series had different systems, then argue for both of them being right.

Also, before replying to this (surely you will), you dont have to post your statements about big sharp axes, grenades on cooldowns or ponies (seriously, it's ment as a joke by the developer, same as with the cowrealm) or your weird obsession with succubus boobs. You dont have to explain the mechanics of soul spears from darksouls or sacrificial bolt from DD, or even being a lich in m&m, you already posted it a hundred times, we get it, you like other games.
01/20/2019 09:12 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Diablo 1 - no cooldown
Diablo 2 - few high CPU/GPU intensive skills have small cooldowns

Most modern aclaimed games by their combat like DD and DkS have no cooldown. Is just my impression or people here never played an game without cooldown?
Diablo did not previously have cooldowns but it would have been great to have some cooldowns and "charges" on a number of abilities... teleport being a very obvious example, potions being another. You don't have to put them everywhere but they can be very useful for balancing skills. You can still have spammable bone spirit good for single target and spammable bone spear good for well positioned mobs and have cooldown skills. A cooldown skill can be designed completely differently than spammable skills. Monks seven sided strike. Cooldown is too long but it should not be spammable. It needs a cooldown. You don't want people using it two or three times in a row but at the same time it cannot cost the entire spirit globe. Cooldown is necessary or else you cannot have a skill like SSS. Movement skills are good for cooldown or charges. CC skills work better with cooldown. Monks serenity only works with cooldown. Without cooldown you could only have something like druids cyclone armor. Diversifying skills and making them interesting is more important to me absolutely avoiding cooldowns because they aren't completely, 100% realistic.
01/21/2019 09:45 AMPosted by Rashiel
Cause it's video games, simple...

Games are made to be an escape from reality.


And movies are not different?

If i an reading an Harry Potter like fiction, on the book 'X' someone creates an fire golem that heals from fire and on the sequel the golem is burned and die by fire, it will be silly.

01/21/2019 09:45 AMPosted by Rashiel
The whole game is based on turns, meaning that you can just spam things because it costs a turn, adding a certain cooldown element to the whole game (trying popping several potions in a row, you get what I mean).


No, wait next turn is not cooldown. You have limited actions to take on a turn. An turn based game with cooldown is DO:S2. Some skills require that you wait "X" amount of turns.

01/21/2019 09:47 AMPosted by UngivenFame
teleport being a very obvious example


In teleport i wold suggest an casting delay or casting time where the highest is your teleport level, lesser the casting delay. So in order to skip a lot of mobs, it will require an huge specialization. Maybe an mana upkeep for a limited amount of time.

On M&M VI-VIII i can teleport from the southermost city to the northest city, skiping literally in game weeks of travel(either by horse or ship) with either Lloyd's Beacon or Town Portal. Teleport on D2 is already limited by the small seeing range.

01/21/2019 09:47 AMPosted by UngivenFame
potions being another


Potions heal over time on D2(fair), i wold add an drinking animation similar to dark souls drinking estus flask or maybe an mechanic where if you take too much potion, the medicine becomes an poison and starts to damages you.
And you're still going on and on; rather than playing those 'superior' games, you've been citing as examples. Why???? Who has the gun to your head? Sounds like yourself.
And movies are not different?


Movies don't have interactive fun or satisfactory elements in the name of game balancing. If one game uses a few design points to be realistic, other designers are NOT entitled to follow the same design. That's not how you get paid in the sector. That's diversity of the design points.

Also I believe not every player would be up to playing realistic simulators in games, since that'd start moral issues. Nor they'd be up to challenge of healing their wounds normally since there's no magical potions in real life. Players shouldn't eat a fireball to the face and shrug it off either. At the same manner, a player shouldn't be alive if a monster weighting thirty thousand pounds slams them onto the ground too. Stopping each bleeding cut should apply with procedures and they have to live with broken legs just because they jumped off from rocks for a shortcut. Talking of shortcuts, forget about teleportation at the gist of "fast travel" as well. If fast travel really caused you to travel, then you'd be stumbling upon wildlife encounters more often than you think in an open world.
That's how gravity, physics and wounds work in battle. Consequences can not be too heavy to break gameplay flow, because it's a game.

They're games and you're breaking your own immersion by asking empty questions. You've been doing it for months now. I know you're doing it out of loathing. I remember you said you find it funny to criticise D3. Why yes, it is; but we got over that years ago.
Your points are reiterations of a long told story from 6 years. If you could've really read the design for what it is, you could make points of its other lacking features rather than being stuck at "game logic".

Get over it, seriously. People read comics about flying super heroes decades ago before movies. Nobody stepped up and said "comics are not realistic, people can not fly by themselves". They're comics and we're talking about games now. You just lack imagination and obsessed on repetitiveness. I'm not sure if it's irony or not.

01/19/2019 12:06 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Heal over time like D2 is ok too. An mechanic who charges potions by killing like PoE is ok too. But a cooldown should't exist.


Read it over and over again. You gotta be kidding.
naksiloth you din't understood my point. What if i made an novel where you can be frozen on plane of fire and vampires heal on sunlight? It will not be silly? This is not about realism. An Diablo game should have consistency with previous lore. This is not hard to understand.

I an miss expressing?
01/21/2019 10:34 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r


01/21/2019 09:47 AMPosted by UngivenFame
teleport being a very obvious example


In teleport i wold suggest an casting delay or casting time where the highest is your teleport level, lesser the casting delay. So in order to skip a lot of mobs, it will require an huge specialization. Maybe an mana upkeep for a limited amount of time.

On M&M VI-VIII i can teleport from the southermost city to the northest city, skiping literally in game weeks of travel(either by horse or ship) with either Lloyd's Beacon or Town Portal. Teleport on D2 is already limited by the small seeing range.

01/21/2019 09:47 AMPosted by UngivenFame
potions being another


Potions heal over time on D2(fair), i wold add an drinking animation similar to dark souls drinking estus flask or maybe an mechanic where if you take too much potion, the medicine becomes an poison and starts to damages you.
Rejuv potions do not heal over time. Drinking animation... seriously? You think that is a good fit for Diablo. And then how exactly would you implement your poison by potion mechanic? Drink one potion and heal 100 heal over three seconds and what happens on the second potion? Don't answer that question - its rhetorical, intended to point out how stupid and cumbersome that mechanic would be for this game. Grim dawn did potions well. D3 did potions well.

I've already explained to you in another thread how casting delay is less good than cooldown. Casting delay doesn't fit with the pacing of ARPG genre for teleport. Its an escape or positioning ability in a fast paced combat game. It needs to respond quickly for that purpose. Not 3 seconds later. After I've kited for three seconds I may not even want to be where I had teleported.
UngivenFame see witcher games and how they handled potions for your "retorical" question. The best potion system for an aRPG is the PoE. Charges that you "regain" after killing enemies.

And again, look to mobility skills on grim dawn. Some have charges/cooldown, some have casting delay, some only increases movement speed, etc.

I honestly think that the best system is %mana upkeep, so after casting teleport, X% of your max mana is unable to be used for 10 seconds. After casting again, the time resets and is 2X% mana "locked", then 3X(...) that way you will encourages the player to not spam the skill but will not remove the player agency. Iinvesting more points should reduce the mana upkeep.

The last think that i wanna in a aRPG is to be constant looking towards my skill bar to see what skills the developer allowed me to use.

PS : 3 seconds is an strawman. Is like i say that cooldowns on teleport will be silly cuz i will only be able to teleport once each 10 minutes. On Path of Exile, Lighting Warp requires even at level 1 less time than it and "It is not possible to completely eliminate this delay because there is a hidden 0.1 second delay added to it" https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Lightning_Warp
Sounds like a resentful Goth kid that WANTS the game to meet his standards (and be just like Dark Souls).

If you want to complain about how much better Dark Souls is, then by all means, waste your time.

Sorry, you aren't misunderstood. There simply isn't anything original or of substance in your post.
01/21/2019 12:57 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
I honestly think that the best system is %mana upkeep, so after casting teleport, X% of your max mana is unable to be used for 10 seconds. After casting again, the time resets and is 2X% mana "locked", then 3X(...) that way you will encourages the player to not spam the skill but will not remove the player agency. Iinvesting more points should reduce the mana upkeep.


Sooo....Kassadin...?

Which still has a cooldown anyway.

01/21/2019 12:57 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
The last think that i wanna in a aRPG is to be constant looking towards my skill bar to see what skills the developer allowed me to use.


Being good enough you get a feel for when the skill is off cooldown, also it's not a terrible ui to keep track of such things.

01/21/2019 12:57 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Is like i say that cooldowns on teleport will be silly cuz i will only be able to teleport once each 10 minutes.


What does that even mean?
01/19/2019 03:45 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r

Anyway, i know that Blizzard doesn't know how to make proper RPG's. D4 will be probably another "gear farming" cartoon game. Maybe in the best case scenario, Blizard will make an D1/D2 remake and that is it.


Umm wait, did you just say d4 will be another loot farm game.... Isn't that the exact discription of an ARPG?
01/21/2019 01:24 PMPosted by shadowforge
Umm wait, did you just say d4 will be another loot farm game.... Isn't that the exact discription of an ARPG?


No, aRPG = action role playing game - See here some examples > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_role-playing_game

"Action role-playing video games (abbreviated action RPG or ARPG) are a subgenre of role-playing video games. The games emphasize real-time combat where the player has direct control over the characters as opposed to turn or menu-based combat. These games often use action game combat systems similar to hack and slash or shooter games. Action role-playing games may also incorporate action-adventure games, which include a mission system and RPG mechanics"

Both, Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 can be beaten naked by most classes.

Which still has a cooldown anyway.


No, in one case your are addicting consequences for using an skill too much. In other you are taking of player agency.

Being good enough you get a feel for when the skill is off cooldown, also it's not a terrible ui to keep track of such things.


Not when you use a lot of different skills. I usually play DkS with all HUD "turned off", that way the game is much more immersive. I need to count how much "resources" aka life, stamina, spell casts, eastus flask, consumables, etc, consider how many "soul spears" i have left, is just like consider how many ammo i have in an airsoft, but manages the time of many different skills is not exactly funny

01/21/2019 01:09 PMPosted by Makarov9mm
Sounds like a resentful Goth kid that WANTS the game to meet his standards (and be just like Dark Souls).


No, an game who have interesting character progression.

01/21/2019 01:09 PMPosted by Makarov9mm
Sounds like a resentful Goth kid that WANTS the game to meet his standards (and be just like Dark Souls).


No, the game doesn't need to have the same challenge, only an in depth character progression just like any other aRPG.
01/19/2019 03:45 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
01/19/2019 03:16 PMPosted by TobiasPeste
OP's obsession is reaching hilarious levels but TBH, I think D4 (if there's ever gonna be one) should actually have some of that stuff.


Like D3 fans butthurt = obsession??

Anyway, i know that Blizzard doesn't know how to make proper RPG's. D4 will be probably another "gear farming" cartoon game. Maybe in the best case scenario, Blizard will make an D1/D2 remake and that is it.


We get it. You don't care for the game(s) that Blizzard produces. Story over, walk away and let it go.

Surly someone of your expertise can develop and produce a far better game on your own that will be the exceed all of our expectations. Why not take time away from the forums here to invest time into that project?
01/21/2019 02:50 PMPosted by Griff
We get it. You don't care for the game(s) that Blizzard produces. Story over, walk away and let it go.


I care. Diablo is one of the most important franchises on gaming story. D1 popularized the aRPG genre and made RPG's much more mainstream. D2 popularized certain things like skill trees. Even Diablo 3 is an amazing example about what NOT to do with an aRPG.
Diablo 4 should have a sub fee , so we get actual content instead of this perpetual stalemate that we have in Diablo 3 .

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