#MakeDiabloDarkFantasyRPGAgain - What D4 needs

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01/21/2019 07:51 PMPosted by Kay
Diablo 4 should have a sub fee , so we get actual content instead of this perpetual stalemate that we have in Diablo 3 .

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No, sub fee is an awful mmo thing and even mmos are staying away from it. Path of Exile is F2P and receive much more content than D3... Second expansion of D3 was canceled because :

"According to people working on the Diablo team, it seemed that the Blizzard higher-ups felt that Diablo III was a flop and that no expansion could turn the game around." Source https://www.thegamer.com/diablo-3s-second-expansion-was-cancelled/

And no, RoS din't fixed D3 by any means. I strongly disagree with many points on this article.
01/22/2019 05:04 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
01/21/2019 07:51 PMPosted by Kay
Diablo 4 should have a sub fee , so we get actual content instead of this perpetual stalemate that we have in Diablo 3 .


No, sub fee is an awful mmo thing and even mmos are staying away from it. Path of Exile is F2P and receive much more content than D3... Second expansion of D3 was canceled because :

"According to people working on the Diablo team, it seemed that the Blizzard higher-ups felt that Diablo III was a flop and that no expansion could turn the game around." Source https://www.thegamer.com/diablo-3s-second-expansion-was-cancelled/

And no, RoS din't fixed D3 by any means. I strongly disagree with many points on this article.


Subscriptions for MMOs are fine, but I doubt such a model would work for an ARPG.
01/22/2019 08:07 AMPosted by Orrion
Subscriptions for MMOs are fine, but I doubt such a model would work for an ARPG.

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I believe that only more traditional large fanbase mmo have it. ESO tried an subscription based monetization but changed to one time purchase. Most eastern mmo's have F2P model and when they are adapted to west, they receive changes on monetization system but generally without sub fee.

People already pay for netflix, sub on PSN, etc; pay another sub considering that an PSN gives """"free"""" games, i honestly think that people nowdays will not pay for subs in a single game. I mean, subs are very expensive an game played from 2005 to 2015 with $15 sub fee means 180/year and $ 1800 on total spended on just one game... For a comparison, i visited Bariloche on Argentina, payed for ski lessons, practiced a little of tango, and had one of the bests vacations of my life and per person, it din't costed this high amount. Even comparing with games, i have 180 games on steam and din't spended $1800 on all steam games..
01/22/2019 11:31 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
01/22/2019 08:07 AMPosted by Orrion
Subscriptions for MMOs are fine, but I doubt such a model would work for an ARPG.


I believe that only more traditional large fanbase mmo have it. ESO tried an subscription based monetization but changed to one time purchase. Most eastern mmo's have F2P model and when they are adapted to west, they receive changes on monetization system but generally without sub fee.


ESO has a subscription, but the base game is free so the sub is things is more experience gain, crowns to spend in the store, more bank space, and some other stuff I don't remember but which is pretty helpful.

Or, in other words, ESO is a pretty good example of why I prefer overall subscription models. If you aren't subbed you're losing out.

For the most part, I hate free to play MMOs. They all seem end up being P2W fests.

People already pay for netflix, sub on PSN, etc; pay another sub considering that an PSN gives """"free"""" games, i honestly think that people nowdays will not pay for subs in a single game. I mean, subs are very expensive an game played from 2005 to 2015 with $15 sub fee means 180/year and $ 1800 on total spended on just one game... For a comparison, i visited Bariloche on Argentina, payed for ski lessons, practiced a little of tango, and had one of the bests vacations of my life and per person, it din't costed this high amount. Even comparing with games, i have 180 games on steam and din't spended $1800 on all steam games..


First, most subs have a deal if you subscribe for 6 months or a year, so 180/yr is closer to the maximum rather than the minimum.

Second, broken down that's less than .50 cents a day.

Sure, if you're spending money on multiple game subscriptions and still doing your regular spending habits in gaming then it adds up. But if you have 1 and spend a chunk of time on it then it's probably saving you money. I know that when I played WoW there were stretches where I didn't buy anything else. I was out of the console market for over a decade, too. So you have to factor in - yes, I was spending ~$156 a year on WoW (12.99/month), but I was also NOT spending money on consoles, console games, and multitudes of computer games I didn't put much time into.

Since I stopped playing WoW? Let's see.. got an Xbox One, a Switch and games for each. Plus other computer games like Overwatch and Monster Hunter World. So I'm no longer paying a sub and throwing the bulk of my gaming time into WoW.. but I'm spending more $$ on games in general.
UngivenFame see witcher games and how they handled potions for your "retorical" question. The best potion system for an aRPG is the PoE. Charges that you "regain" after killing enemies.

And again, look to mobility skills on grim dawn. Some have charges/cooldown, some have casting delay, some only increases movement speed, etc.

I honestly think that the best system is %mana upkeep [...]

The last think that i wanna in a aRPG is to be constant looking towards my skill bar to see what skills the developer allowed me to use.

PS : 3 seconds is an strawman. Is like i say that cooldowns on teleport will be silly cuz i will only be able to teleport once each 10 minutes.[...]
How is gaining charges on your potion from killing monsters ANY BETTER than a cooldown from an RPG perspective (which is so important to you). How is killing enemies refilling your potion bottle? That makes no sense.

I don't know of any skill on GD that has a casting delay. All the movement skills are on cooldown. It works good. GD has a lot of cooldowns and the game is great.

This mana upkeep system is not all that different than simply using mana. Mana upkeep makes sense on permanent buffs not on regular skills like you have described. Also, like I've said so many times before, if it costs enough to balance the spammability of teleport, then it costs too much to be used effectively because you either don't have enough mana for escape because you spent mana on attacking, or you don't have enough mana for spells after using teleport to position well. I don't know why that is so hard for you to understand.

Three seconds is an EXAMPLE because I don't play PoE so I don't know how long the delay is. It happens to be one second so I was off only by a factor of 3. So its not like a ten minute cooldown on teleport which is 55 times longer than the cooldown in D3. I'm not the one using ridiculous arguments here.
01/22/2019 12:14 PMPosted by Orrion
Since I stopped playing WoW? Let's see.. got an Xbox One, a Switch and games for each. Plus other computer games like Overwatch and Monster Hunter World. So I'm no longer paying a sub and throwing the bulk of my gaming time into WoW.. but I'm spending more $$ on games in general.


Orrion, but honestly can wow have more content than dozens of games?

I only "tested" a little of classic but din't liked. Not saying that is bad, only that is not my style. Only on War Thunder, an F2P game i have 371 hours. On NWN i have 197 hours and the game is not expensive. Not mention the M&M games. I've purchased M&M i to VIII(IX and X are trash) on GOG and took 8 months to complete few M&M games, since in the time i had few time to play. Only M&M VI according to how long to beat takes 70 hours to be completed on average https://howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=6030

An are 70 hours fighting completely different enemies, in completely different dungeon layouts(one even looks like an wolf's claw), visiting completely different locations, understanding more about an epic plot etc; is not 70 hours of spamming the same rotation over and over again and killing mobs that only have different hp numbers, only to reach level cap and then start to "raiding" who is nothing more than spam the same rotation over and over again and wait 15 minutes to down an ridiculous inflated boss hp bar and have 0,01% of chance of getting gear in a game where only gear matters... Not saying that wow is that way since i played little, but all mmos that i've tested are... Booting are a problem on mmo thanks to the repetitivity and lack of depth.

In therms of cost benefit, nothing beats the old games.

01/22/2019 12:55 PMPosted by UngivenFame
cooldown from an RPG perspective (which is so important to you). How is killing enemies refilling your potion bottle? That makes no sense.


There are an lore explanation. If i remember correctly(not sure) potion flasks usually use the "soul" of defeated foes, similar to vaal skills.

Cooldown takes you off from action and usually makes you to avoid combat while charges refiling on combat incentive(without forcing) you to try refill your potion.

01/22/2019 12:55 PMPosted by UngivenFame
I don't know how long the delay is. It happens to be one second so I was off only by a factor of 3.


Considering that your teleport is limited to the screen size(around 15 meters), 3 seconds is more than any character running takes. My idea is 1.5 second on level 1(almost useless) and 0.15 s on level 20, at level 20 with +skill level gear, i honestly don't know...

01/22/2019 12:55 PMPosted by UngivenFame
I don't know of any skill on GD that has a casting delay. All the movement skills are on cooldown. It works good. GD has a lot of cooldowns and the game is great.


I never played an game before where you need to wait 18 seconds to cast raise skeleton and can only raises few of then per cast...
I only "tested" a little of classic but din't liked. Not saying that is bad, only that is not my style.

I would say any rpg in whatever style is not your style, out of all the rpg style games you have supposedly played you have found fault with all of them and none of them are good enough for you.
Personally I think you are most definitely playing the wrong genre of games and should really go find a genre you like because as far as rpg style games go, nothing is ever good enough
01/22/2019 04:00 PMPosted by Steve
I only "tested" a little of classic but din't liked. Not saying that is bad, only that is not my style.

I would say any rpg in whatever style is not your style, out of all the rpg style games you have supposedly played you have found fault with all of them and none of them are good enough for you.
Personally I think you are most definitely playing the wrong genre of games and should really go find a genre you like because as far as rpg style games go, nothing is ever good enough


I don't need to like 100% of the content on one game to enjoy it. Nothing in this world is perfect(and this is not restricted to gaming) For example, Bed of Chaos on Dark Souls is hated not only by my but took 2 hours for me who is awful at platforming to pass this boss. It din't ruined even an small fraction my experience. Only cuz i wish that i have free aim on DkS 1 instead of an lock on mechanic for spells, doesn't means that i will not have an good time. The same applies to other genres. I will not stop playing BF 1 cuz i din't liked an particular map or don't like suppression or random bullet deviation.

Or even outside of gaming. I will not stop watching GoT because i din't liked an scene or an episode... Even if i make my own game, i will probably change my mind in the future about his mechanics.

PS : I play a lot of FPS too but honestly don't play AAA shooters(except BF 1), they tends to be very boring IMO.
01/22/2019 04:13 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
I don't need to like 100% of the content on one game to enjoy it.

Of course you do, your big carry on because a fantasy world doesn't work the same way as real life proves otherwise
And then there's the I'm a big hero because I can play a necromancer naked on hell difficulty in D2 but D3 sux because I can't do a GR 150 unless I have a specific build.
Why is it that it's alright to run naked in D2 with very specific builds but not in D3
Why are you comparing Hell difficulty in D2 with a GR 150 when the difference between the 2 difficulties aren't even in the same universe
As far as I'm concerned you could probably put together a character in D3 using at least equipment that works together with the skills you are using and be able to play the game at T13 and not even have to use a set
D1 and D2 has 3 difficulty settings, D3 has 17 difficulty levels not including GR
3 difficulty levels in D3 is expert, which is nothing
01/22/2019 04:13 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Or even outside of gaming. I will not stop watching GoT because i din't liked an scene or an episode..

That's just being stupid
01/22/2019 04:38 PMPosted by Steve
Of course you do, your big carry on because a fantasy world doesn't work the same way as real life proves otherwise


No, again. If you put vampires on your game and in your game and they heal on sunlight, it will be inconsistent with vampire's lore at the same way that casters and monks on D3 are inconsistent. And the problem is not require an weapon. Is require weapons that are not associated with casting in any fantasy setting and only consider the weapon damage.

To mention dark souls again, i can't cast spells on dark souls without an catalyst but there are no better catalyst, there are the best catalyst for your character and the magic that you wanna cast. Some times greater power comes with an cost. Manus catalyst is the best to cast Dark Sorceries but lowers your cast/rest by half. That means that an spell with few usages(6) like Dark Bead becomes with 3 casts/rest. Even how you craft Manus catalyst(ascension with Soul of Manus) and why the catalyst is good for dark sorceries is very consistent

Imagine an series with an school of wizardry like Harry Potter(not HP)

Book 1 - Casters become stronger towards study and practice
Book 2 - Casters become stronger towards study and practice
Book 3 - Every caster is equally not only on magical power but on everything else, everyone have the same strength, constitution, etc and , only their wands are different and they can use axes as wands.

PS : About the naked or cursed items only runs on previous Diablo titles, they are a joke/challenge run, much more like Shield only run on dark souls
01/22/2019 05:35 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
No, again. If you put vampires on your game and in your game and they heal on sunlight, it will be inconsistent with vampire's lore

and you are using earth lore and not game lore

01/22/2019 05:35 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Imagine an series with an school of wizardry like Harry Potter(not HP)Book 1 - Casters become stronger towards study and practiceBook 2 - Casters become stronger towards study and practice Book 3 - Every caster is equally not only on magical power but on everything else, everyone have the same strength, constitution, etc and , only their wands are different and they can use axes as wands.

And in D3 you totally ignore the lore fact that the worldstone was messed with so that we don't become real powerful and in D2 the worldstone was broken/fractured and we started to become the way we were always meant to be without being hobbled and forceably limited

01/22/2019 05:35 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
same way that casters and monks on D3 are inconsistent

using your vampire analogy their is no such thing as magic and therefore there shouldn't be any wizards in any games, us humans can't cast fireballs so neither should wizards
and you are using earth lore and not game lore


If the game uses an "earth myth", it should be consistent with the in game lore.

And in D3 you totally ignore the lore fact that the worldstone was messed with so that we don't become real powerful and in D2 the worldstone was broken/fractured and we started to become the way we were always meant to be without being hobbled and forceably limited


This part of lore is not reflected in the game.

Why the Priests of Rathma limited by the worldstone can resurrect monsters for a greater duration in larger amount, can take control over enemies with attract curse, create an living fire golem who heals from fire, materialize walls of bones and do tons of other stuff that they can't do on d3 where supposedly they are stronger...

Same with other classes. If the lore is "the break of worldstone made the worldstone transfered all nephalem power into the gear in a desperate attempt to seize the high nephalem power", at least you will have an better justification to d3 systems because honestly, your character is nothing on d3...

01/22/2019 05:54 PMPosted by Steve
using your vampire analogy their is no such thing as magic and therefore there shouldn't be any wizards in any games, us humans can't cast fireballs so neither should wizards

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Only if the game proposal is to be an game without any supernatural or fiction like Chivalry, medieval warfare. But if you assume that wizards exists in your fictional universe, it should have consistency. An fire dealing cold damage is silly, doesn't matter if the fire exists IRL or if is an fictional hellfire.
I can see a lot of people here are cheap and don't like the sub fee option , but then they turn around and demand content .

?????????????????????????????????????????
01/22/2019 07:54 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
If the game uses an "earth myth", it should be consistent with the in game lore.

So there's no such thing as a fantasy world where the maker of that world can make the rules as they see fit and have to be shackled to "earth myth" because it's what you want and fantasy world be damned
You really don't understand the concept of what a fantasy world is do you
Why does a fantasy world have to be earth based and follow their rules instead of having their own?
If everything has to be earth based like you want it's not a fantasy world it's earth
#MakeDiabloDarkFantasyRPGAgain

look at the new season wings reward;
-Diablo will never cater for 32 year old adults (average playerbase) with a wish for a dark simulated religious inspired aRPG.
01/22/2019 09:03 PMPosted by Kay
I can see a lot of people here are cheap and don't like the sub fee option , but then they turn around and demand content .

?????????????????????????????????????????


Again, when F2P games such as PoE offers much more content than D3 with only cosmetic microtransactions, i don't think that is impossible to have an non sub fee monetization of a game.

01/22/2019 10:19 PMPosted by Steve
Why does a fantasy world have to be earth based and follow their rules instead of having their own?


What if the next fifa decides to change soccer rules, using basket balls and allowing everyone to touch the ball with the hand? The game should be consistent with his "sources". Doesn't matter if the source is a myth, an rule, an "concrete" thing, etc
01/22/2019 12:14 PMPosted by Orrion
Since I stopped playing WoW? Let's see.. got an Xbox One, a Switch and games for each. Plus other computer games like Overwatch and Monster Hunter World. So I'm no longer paying a sub and throwing the bulk of my gaming time into WoW.. but I'm spending more $$ on games in general.


Orrion, but honestly can wow have more content than dozens of games?


Where did I say it did? What kept me playing was raiding and my guild. Raiding in MMOs has always been a very fun activity for me.

I only "tested" a little of classic but din't liked. Not saying that is bad, only that is not my style. Only on War Thunder, an F2P game i have 371 hours. On NWN i have 197 hours and the game is not expensive. Not mention the M&M games. I've purchased M&M i to VIII(IX and X are trash) on GOG and took 8 months to complete few M&M games, since in the time i had few time to play. Only M&M VI according to how long to beat takes 70 hours to be completed on average https://howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=6030

An are 70 hours fighting completely different enemies, in completely different dungeon layouts(one even looks like an wolf's claw), visiting completely different locations, understanding more about an epic plot etc; is not 70 hours of spamming the same rotation over and over again and killing mobs that only have different hp numbers, only to reach level cap and then start to "raiding" who is nothing more than spam the same rotation over and over again and wait 15 minutes to down an ridiculous inflated boss hp bar and have 0,01% of chance of getting gear in a game where only gear matters... Not saying that wow is that way since i played little, but all mmos that i've tested are... Booting are a problem on mmo thanks to the repetitivity and lack of depth.


The way that you play games is not the way everyone plays games, and it’s not the way most people play MMOs. You don’t play 5 MMOs at once or put only a couple hundred hours or less into one (unless you’re moving on cause you didn’t like it). MMOs are a time investment - most people playing one long term shove a lot of time into it.

And yes, I get it. You hate MMOs and hate their mechanics - though how you can prefer 1-2 skill button mashing over rotations is beyond me. Not going to waste my time debating why I played WoW with you - you just need to realize that my price analysis is plausible.

In therms of cost benefit, nothing beats the old games.


Believe it or not, pricing for a console/pc game has remained pretty constant over the years since the NES era. So... no, not really. Busting out my NES and playing Megaman really isn’t more beneficial to me than playing Monster Hunter World that I got late last year - they both cost the exact same amount of money.

And overall it sounds like you need to stick to the old games, and stop complaining that the new games aren’t exactly like them.
01/23/2019 04:11 AMPosted by Orrion
MMOs are a time investment - most people playing one long term shove a lot of time into it.


That is my problem. Is an time investment in something that is very repetitive without much depth... That is my main problem with D3. It have too much stuff from mmo, the main difference is the amount of players and the action part.

01/23/2019 04:11 AMPosted by Orrion
though how you can prefer 1-2 skill button mashing over rotations is beyond me.


I mentioned tons of RPG's, none of then is about spam the same skill over and over.

This in NWN1, in a 2 minute battle ( https://youtu.be/TEMYFXB8a-c?t=45 ), i started the battle against the Dracolich casting Mordenkainen's disjunction to lower his defense, then summoned an "meatshield", then trowed my highest DPS skill that i can use(note, i can't use Horrid wilting on undead since it will heal then), then used stop time to take less damage from traps, rushed towards his phylactery, casted delayed fireball since normal fireball will not work when the time is stopped to kill the golems that are guarding it, after he revived since even with time stop, took to long to destroy his phylactery, i have used one of my epic spells to summon a dragon and started to use my highest single target DPS spell against him. This won't counting the buffs that i've casted pre battle like haste, elemental shield, Spell mantle, etc. I probably have used more than 10 skills on just one battle.

Now compare this to neverwinter mmo. 20 minutes of flashes on a dracolich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y4kST4BYQE

Sacred 1/2 have cooldown and i completed both using just Gust of the Wind.

I will ask again. Did you ever played an game without cooldown?

01/23/2019 04:11 AMPosted by Orrion
And overall it sounds like you need to stick to the old games, and stop complaining that the new games aren’t exactly like them.

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No, there are a lot of good modern games like Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, Path of Exile, Pillars of Eternity, Metro Exodus, etc; but in cost benefit, old games are better. I just don't like the "press A for awesome" industry...

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