#MakeDiabloDarkFantasyRPGAgain - What D4 needs

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01/19/2019 03:51 PMPosted by KingInYellow
Dark Souls is better than D3


I LOL'd. It's not even the same class of game.

You like it more - fine, but let's not compare apples to oranges.
01/22/2019 01:31 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r


01/22/2019 12:55 PMPosted by UngivenFame
cooldown from an RPG perspective (which is so important to you). How is killing enemies refilling your potion bottle? That makes no sense.


There are an lore explanation. If i remember correctly(not sure) potion flasks usually use the "soul" of defeated foes, similar to vaal skills.

Cooldown takes you off from action and usually makes you to avoid combat while charges refiling on combat incentive(without forcing) you to try refill your potion.

01/22/2019 12:55 PMPosted by UngivenFame
I don't know of any skill on GD that has a casting delay. All the movement skills are on cooldown. It works good. GD has a lot of cooldowns and the game is great.


I never played an game before where you need to wait 18 seconds to cast raise skeleton and can only raises few of then per cast...
So if we include in the potion description something about the potion being connected to the gods who infinitely replenish your potion over a short time then we can have a cooldown on potions?

So is your complaint that one GD necromancer skill or cooldowns overall? GD doesn't give you a mob of undead like D2, and you don't like it. You completely ignore all gameplay aspects that would lead to cooldown and limited # of skeletons.
01/23/2019 07:46 AMPosted by UngivenFame
So if we include in the potion description something about the potion being connected to the gods who infinitely replenish your potion over a short time then we can have a cooldown on potions?


Then is a system with charges and time to replenish it like some games have it. I see no problem. You can use all charges on one second or wait a long time. Cooldown can make sense if is not in something tied to your character but tied to external factors.

The good thing about PoE is that if you dislike an mechanic in particular, probably there are alternatives. From movment skills for example, there are charge/cooldown skills, casting delay, buffing speed, etc.

PS : About Grim Dawn, there are a mod who allows you to play with D2/D3 classes.
01/23/2019 08:58 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
PS : About Grim Dawn, there are a mod who allows you to play with D2/D3 classes.


In GD I had 10 skeletons + 2 golems + hellhound + raven and that worked pretty well despite skeletons having a CD. In D2 I've seen 'undead army' necros fighting ONE trash mob in 8 players games and we all stopped just to watch the hilarious battle (spoiler: the trash mob was winning).

In PoE there are good and very bad mov. skills. Lightning warp sucks and flame dash sucks, shield charge and whirling blades are good.
If you dislike a mechanic in particular there may NOT be alternatives. Low life builds ALL require the same only one item (Shavronne's wrappings). Talk about alternatives...
01/23/2019 09:28 AMPosted by TobiasPeste
In GD I had 10 skeletons + 2 golems + hellhound + raven and that worked pretty well despite skeletons having a CD. In D2 I've seen 'undead army' necros fighting ONE trash mob in 8 players games and we all stopped just to watch the hilarious battle (spoiler: the trash mob was winning).


Only an single skeleton warrior(not mage) with maxed skill + passives can deal 125 pts of damage on average. This x8(number of skeletons) means 1000 damage. Even if the "trash mob" can OHK the skeletons, just cast iron maiden on the "trash mob". The necromancer in question probably don't know how to play. An skeleton with skills maxed have 1719 hp. Uber baal deals only 494 damage with an sword attack, so is very unlikely that your skeletons will be OHKilled.

Duriel becomes an cakewalk if you use golem + iron maiden.
01/23/2019 04:11 AMPosted by Orrion
MMOs are a time investment - most people playing one long term shove a lot of time into it.


That is my problem. Is an time investment in something that is very repetitive without much depth... That is my main problem with D3. It have too much stuff from mmo, the main difference is the amount of players and the action part.


There was depth enough and variety enough for me for a long time. To each his own.

01/23/2019 04:11 AMPosted by Orrion
though how you can prefer 1-2 skill button mashing over rotations is beyond me.


I mentioned tons of RPG's, none of then is about spam the same skill over and over.


But you’ve often given that as an example of builds or, if it isn’t possible, something that should be.

This in NWN1, in a 2 minute battle ( https://youtu.be/TEMYFXB8a-c?t=45 ), i started the battle against the Dracolich casting Mordenkainen's disjunction to lower his defense, then summoned an "meatshield", then trowed my highest DPS skill that i can use(note, i can't use Horrid wilting on undead since it will heal then), then used stop time to take less damage from traps, rushed towards his phylactery, casted delayed fireball since normal fireball will not work when the time is stopped to kill the golems that are guarding it, after he revived since even with time stop, took to long to destroy his phylactery, i have used one of my epic spells to summon a dragon and started to use my highest single target DPS spell against him. This won't counting the buffs that i've casted pre battle like haste, elemental shield, Spell mantle, etc. I probably have used more than 10 skills on just one battle.

Now compare this to neverwinter mmo. 20 minutes of flashes on a dracolich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y4kST4BYQE


What’s your point, that the Neverwinter MMO doesn’t have a lot of skills? I’d agree - the game is terrible.

I will ask again. Did you ever played an game without cooldown?


Sure. But likely none of the RPGs you have. I tend to avoid single player games in this era because I like playing with others.

01/23/2019 04:11 AMPosted by Orrion
And overall it sounds like you need to stick to the old games, and stop complaining that the new games aren’t exactly like them.


No, there are a lot of good modern games like Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, Path of Exile, Pillars of Eternity, Metro Exodus, etc; but in cost benefit, old games are better. I just don't like the "press A for awesome" industry...


How are the old ones better in cost benefit? As I said earlier - the price per game has remained relatively stable.

Hell, Grim Dawn is only.. what, 40 for everything? That’s pretty cost effective.
01/23/2019 08:58 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r

Then is a system with charges and time to replenish it like some games have it. I see no problem. You can use all charges on one second or wait a long time. Cooldown can make sense if is not in something tied to your character but tied to external factors.

The good thing about PoE is that if you dislike an mechanic in particular, probably there are alternatives. From movment skills for example, there are charge/cooldown skills, casting delay, buffing speed, etc.

[/quote]So are you against cooldowns. You can have cooldowns on potion if its explained why in the tooltip but cannot have any cooldowns on your skills. We cannot have a cooldown on Dashing Strike if in the description it says something about your legs being tired?

And then you go on to mention that PoE has movement skill with cast delay and another with cooldown... which is what I have been saying the whole time. Not every skill needs a cooldown. Some skills do need cooldowns. It allows you to design more skills that feel different and unique. And you've gone on for several threads about how ANY cooldown is a no go because of RPG reasons. Just don't use it.
What’s your point, that the Neverwinter MMO doesn’t have a lot of skills? I’d agree - the game is terrible.


Orion

Is just an comparison between the original game who is strongly based on D&D 3.0 with the mmo based on the same universe.

I have tested some mmos but never played an single mmo without cooldown. I din't liked much DDO exactly because the game have HP inflation and cooldowns. 60 second cooldown from Wail of Banshee, casts is a mana bar instead of casts/rest... https://ddowiki.com/page/Wail_of_the_Banshee

01/23/2019 01:56 PMPosted by UngivenFame
We cannot have a cooldown on Dashing Strike if in the description it says something about your legs being tired?


If the legs are exausted to perform the same skill, how the guy in question can use other leg skill like leap?

01/23/2019 01:56 PMPosted by UngivenFame
It allows you to design more skills that feel different and unique. And you've gone on for several threads about how ANY cooldown is a no go because of RPG reasons. Just don't use it.


Is not only the "makes sense" argument. Is that there are a big difference between skill diversity being promoted and forced. The ideal is an system who promotes the use of many different skills but between an spam fest and cooldown, cooldown is less awful. Is much more easy to add cooldown. My point is that most problems can be fixed without it. There are better ways to balance skills.
01/23/2019 02:13 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
What’s your point, that the Neverwinter MMO doesn’t have a lot of skills? I’d agree - the game is terrible.


Orion

Is just an comparison between the original game who is strongly based on D&D 3.0 with the mmo based on the same universe.

I have tested some mmos but never played an single mmo without cooldown. I din't liked much DDO exactly because the game have HP inflation and cooldowns. 60 second cooldown from Wail of Banshee, casts is a mana bar instead of casts/rest... https://ddowiki.com/page/Wail_of_the_Banshee


Neverwinter has more conditionals than cooldowns, I think. The daily ability, for instance, builds as you do stuff. However...

The game is structured as a pay2win scenario, so I wouldn’t put much stock in the comparison. They intentionally limited the skills to make you spend money on picking them again when you want a change.

And you’re positively screwed on crafting/mounts/pets unless you blow some $$, and you constantly get chests that drop but you can’t open them unless you spend $$ on keys.. yeah. Not really an example where they stayed true to the source material.
I feel that Diablo 3 did very well over the course of it's lifetime. I really personally enjoyed it. I hated how bad it was pre RoS, I even purchased the Necro DLC. I wish the game ran better on Linux, Wine really sucks. I wish we had offline play so I could play without lag. But overall its been a very fun game. Season 16 is by far the best season.

The game is about killing demons and killing satan. It is dark enough. Any darker and you might as well go watch some gore !@#$. You trudge through your home town getting massacred then you move onto the desert to trudge through sewers with piles of literal excrament only to destroy their beloved king, then you move onto the cold desolate mountains then onto heaven which gets destroyed, then you move to the new area only to find out that nothing you did changed a thing. HOW MUCH DARKER DO YOU WANT?!?!?!?! Get out and get a life man.
01/23/2019 02:13 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
...

Orion

Is just an comparison between the original game who is strongly based on D&D 3.0 with the mmo based on the same universe.

I have tested some mmos but never played an single mmo without cooldown. I din't liked much DDO exactly because the game have HP inflation and cooldowns. 60 second cooldown from Wail of Banshee, casts is a mana bar instead of casts/rest... https://ddowiki.com/page/Wail_of_the_Banshee


Neverwinter has more conditionals than cooldowns, I think. The daily ability, for instance, builds as you do stuff. However...

The game is structured as a pay2win scenario, so I wouldn’t put much stock in the comparison. They intentionally limited the skills to make you spend money on picking them again when you want a change.

And you’re positively screwed on crafting/mounts/pets unless you blow some $$, and you constantly get chests that drop but you can’t open them unless you spend $$ on keys.. yeah. Not really an example where they stayed true to the source material.


You are right. Without sub fee, most mmos tends to become P2W. Only an question. Is true that even sub based mmos are now having BS P2W microtransactions? I heard critiques towards Black Desert and WoW but never played much.

Talking about F2P, on DDO for eg, Warlock and other classes are locked behind an paywall and many good dungeons too. Warlock is arguably the best caster class since enemies have insanely more HP than in PnP and his Eldritch Blast can be cast without any cost. Not only can be cast without any cost, but generally deal more damage than weapons.
01/23/2019 02:13 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
The ideal is an system who promotes the use of many different skills but between an spam fest and cooldown, cooldown is less awful. Is much more easy to add cooldown. My point is that most problems can be fixed without it. There are better ways to balance skills.


So wait, so now cooldowns are somewhat okay?

Also yes it could be handled through different means, but if it's just easy to add a cooldown, why not do it?

It seems you want to overcomplicate things by adding more ways that restrict players from spamming skills, when cooldown does just that. To me it seems you're fighting the wrong battle.

01/23/2019 03:08 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Is true that even sub based mmos are now having BS P2W microtransactions? I heard critiques towards Black Desert and WoW but never played much.


Some may be, not wow though, you still dont gain an advantage over another through buying from the store. Arguebly it might refer to pets bought through the store, but since they can only be used for a minigame within wow, they can hardly be considered an advantage.
...

Neverwinter has more conditionals than cooldowns, I think. The daily ability, for instance, builds as you do stuff. However...

The game is structured as a pay2win scenario, so I wouldn’t put much stock in the comparison. They intentionally limited the skills to make you spend money on picking them again when you want a change.

And you’re positively screwed on crafting/mounts/pets unless you blow some $$, and you constantly get chests that drop but you can’t open them unless you spend $$ on keys.. yeah. Not really an example where they stayed true to the source material.


You are right. Without sub fee, most mmos tends to become P2W. Only an question. Is true that even sub based mmos are now having BS P2W microtransactions? I heard critiques towards Black Desert and WoW but never played much.

Talking about F2P, on DDO for eg, Warlock and other classes are locked behind an paywall and many good dungeons too. Warlock is arguably the best caster class since enemies have insanely more HP than in PnP and his Eldritch Blast can be cast without any cost. Not only can be cast without any cost, but generally deal more damage than weapons.


No, WoW doesn’t have pay2win transactions. Neither does Final Fantasy 11 or 14 (that I’m aware of). Which is why I tend prefer totally sub based MMOs. You pay a fee and get access to everything, and whatever you do after that is up to you.

The free MMOs are busy trying to entice you to buy - again and again and again. So busy that they also compromise being a good and complete game.

ESO is gonna have 2 classes behind a paywall once the next class comes out.
01/23/2019 03:54 AMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
What if the next fifa decides to change soccer rules, using basket balls and allowing everyone to touch the ball with the hand? The game should be consistent with his "sources". Doesn't matter if the source is a myth, an rule, an "concrete" thing, etc

That's just sad on your part. We are talking about fantasy worlds and rpg rules and you pull out a sporting game that is based on earth in the game and not on another game world. and then say it doesn't have to play by earth rules, and yet you complain because game worlds don't follow there on lore, and here you are changing the lore to suit yourself, and complain when other people do it.
Real Sad
You must really love the soccer game that I saw being played on tv a couple of times where they play inside a cage and use cars instead of people,
So wait, so now cooldowns are somewhat okay?

Also yes it could be handled through different means, but if it's just easy to add a cooldown, why not do it?


My point is that encourage skill diversion > forces it > skill spam.

The problem is that cooldown is that in most of the times, won't even fix the problem, since becomes spam the same rotation. If i don't need to constant see an bar to see what i can use or spam the same rotation over and over, i see no problem(still believe that can be better with another balancing mechanic)

01/23/2019 03:31 PMPosted by Rashiel
Some may be, not wow though, you still dont gain an advantage over another through buying from the store. Arguebly it might refer to pets bought through the store, but since they can only be used for a minigame within wow, they can hardly be considered an advantage.


Then i see no problem with cosmetic microtransactions. Is good for the company profits, for the people who purchase and will have an more unique character and even for the people who not purchase, since it creates an incentive to create more content.

One thing that i particularly hate is lootbox. I mean, i rather pay for an skin than pay for a chance of getting it but the mistake is not from any company. Is people who purchase lootbox. Companies are just satisfying an demand that exists.

01/23/2019 03:35 PMPosted by Orrion
No, WoW doesn’t have pay2win transactions. Neither does Final Fantasy 11 or 14 (that I’m aware of). Which is why I tend prefer totally sub based MMOs. You pay a fee and get access to everything, and whatever you do after that is up to you.


You are right. Only an increment about monthly fees. $15 per month can be little for the average american, but in countries like Argentina, Russia and China who aren't developed but aren't miserable, it can be very expensive. Mainly if taxes applies. The biggest part of the world population lives in this type of "average" countries.

01/23/2019 04:16 PMPosted by Steve
You must really love the soccer game that I saw being played on tv a couple of times where they play inside a cage and use cars instead of people,


Rocket league is an amazing game. But if the new FIFA/Madden/etc tries to copy Rocket league....
01/23/2019 04:26 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
Rocket league is an amazing game. But if the new FIFA/Madden/etc tries to copy Rocket league....

So why aren't you getting all upset and raging because it's not a real soccer game and not the same as all the other soccer games after all according to you they all have to be the same and no one plays soccer with cars, Remember the lore has to be consistent with you
People still actually think there is going to be a Diablo 4.
That's so cute.
01/23/2019 06:58 PMPosted by Steve
So why aren't you getting all upset and raging because it's not a real soccer game and not the same as all the other soccer games after all according to you they all have to be the same and no one plays soccer with cars, Remember the lore has to be consistent with you


You are right. But my point is about sequels.

01/23/2019 07:21 PMPosted by Shoehorizon
People still actually think there is going to be a Diablo 4.
That's so cute.


Knowledge of successful intellectual properties in dark fantasy and gothic horror genres, and the ability to speak to what made them successful"; guess that's what we are looking at.
https://careers.blizzard.com/en-us/openings/ovmB8fwk

Bliz recently hired someone who really understand dark fantasy > https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20770887170

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