Crushing blow, Attract, Static Field... Should be back?

General Discussion
I know, it should't be back on D3 since this types of attacks are equally good, against a normal difficulty mob or against a GR 150 mob, it on D3 will breaks the in game balance. D3 was balanced around only one skill level and every offensive skill %WD(weapon damage). You can like or hate it(my case), but bring this type of skills on D3 will be awful. I an talking about an supposed Diablo IV or spin off Diablo game

One thing that i loved on D2/D1 was that there are many offensive damage spells that doesn't scale with your Skill Damage(SD) or WD(weapon damage), some even allow you to take control over enemy mobs like necro IA curses(Attract) and Paladin's Conversion, some scale solo with the mob HP like Corpse explosion and some uses the enemy damage against itself like Iron Maiden curse. Sorceress has in her Light skill tree an skill that deals %HP damage, Static field. Not mention cut content. On D1 there are an spell called Blood Boil who deals 100% of enemy health HP damage, is possible to OHK any creature, but returns 100% of the damage to the caster. Bone Spirit on D1 works completely different than on D2/D3, deals %enemy health damage and can be the highest DPS spell in the game and the lowest depending the situation.

Melee warriors on D2 can use some interesting combinations. One Paladin running "Last Wish Runeword" with 70% of Crushing Blow chance, can kill most mobs in 2-3 hits and can kill hell baal pretty fast. since Crushing Blow is based on enemy HP. In fact, Smiter is very used to do Uber runs thanks to the crushing blow mechanic.

IMO the next Diablo not only should put this iconic spells back, but should adds more of this spells. Necro should receive spells similar to Wail of Banshee and Finger of Death from DnD/Pathfinder, Sorc should receive an spell similar to Flesh to Stone and domination. And not only "D sequel" should bring back Crushing Blow, but should add decapitation to melee fighters;
there are a lot of things that i hope they'll take from D&D and PF and add to the next game. basically - combine the best elements from D2 and D3 and make something interesting to play and experience.
'Attract' was my favorite D2 spell. I don't like 'crushing blow' mechanic, needs an additional drawback IMO (for ex. self damage or extreme exhaustion).
I'm going to say no, as this was something we were about to get into before your last thread got purged.

The main problem with any ability that inflicts damage relative to a mob's max HP is that they wind up being really strong. Sorcs being a popular farmer when gear access is minimal is no coincidence, as the access to Teleport and not needing a strong weapon aside, a few casts of Static Field could easily take a boss down to a more manageable level for their variable damage abilities. Meanwhile, everyone else would either be incapable of doing the fight or take a lot longer.

Crushing Blow goes on to function similarly, but was harder to get and not as reliable. Still, it had an advantage that SF didn't when it came to multi-attack abilities like Zeal or Fend. Or synergized well with Smite which had added utility of its own. Still, when you're doing way more damage than you normally would be able, it's an unfair advantage to the builds that can't, and not for lack of trying.

As for something like Attract, this boils down to what one would consider how powerful a crowd control ability should be. Changing enemy attack priority is a pretty powerful ability, and something like this could easily facilitate "screen creep" where an undergeared player just inches from screen to screen, chain-casting on targets to minimize attention drawn to themselves while the monsters eat their own. The concept may sound cool on paper, but it's still a fairness issue when you stop and realize other things like stuns and movement slows could see diminishing returns over time. Something of this power should effectively mandate a high resource cost and possibly a cooldown, the latter of which I know you're not a fan of. Without meeting those conditions, it's easily in OP territory. I'd also be remiss to not point out that people cheesed the Enchantress' Confuse ability, as similar, near launch because it allowed things players wouldn't have normally been able to do at their current gear level. And in the end, they wind up useless on bosses/elites, so it's just sort of a "What's the point?" matter.

Ultimately, I'd rather see more creative ways to deal damage or infer tactics. Something like Corpse Explosion was fun, but basing it off mob HP wasn't well thought out. And if I'm being honest, fans of pet classes almost always want to wind up more powerful than everyone else with both a powerful master and minions. It's a reality I've also seen happen too often in various games.
02/06/2019 11:56 PMPosted by TobiasPeste
'Attract' was my favorite D2 spell. I don't like 'crushing blow' mechanic, needs an additional drawback IMO (for ex. self damage or extreme exhaustion).
Correct CB was too-strong. It was like no-drawback and should not be in D4.
Devs probs don't look at D2 enough to understand what mechanics should be even remembered / though of for D4's development.

FHR is like mandatory.
Corpse Fetch is also mandatory.
Hostile.
IAS mattering.

Attack Rating I think is just a bland-gearing obstacle. It does make the game more realistic, because not-always-hitting and overcoming that is a sense of char development. However, it is just a chore / cheat it out with some OP runeword or so to take care of it. I do like the feeling of missing an attack still, it makes the game more realistic. If there were a way to bring A/R at a muted level back into the game i'd support that. Something that takes a small investment to overcome.

Movement speed is a big one.
Gearing for MS over nitro-moveskills on cooldown is the way to go.
You want to gear for moving fast and not have cooldown skills for it.

There's other mechanics worth mentioning.
A whole huge thread should be made about them.
Same with curses. Curses are a LOT cooler than "freezing" affixes on elites.
No to the % health spells. They end up being overpowered as hell or completely worthless, depending upon whether bosses are immune to it or not.
Diablo I and Diablo II didn't have infinite scaling content. Some of what you mention would be absolutely required and would pigeon-hole you into one build if you plan to advance.

No doubt, based on the history of this genre, any future game would include some sort of scaling content in hopes of promoting replayability.
02/06/2019 10:28 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
and some uses the enemy HP against itself like Iron Maiden curse.


Iron Maiden had nothing to do with enemy health, reflected damage only scaled with damage dealt.

02/06/2019 10:28 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
I know, it should't be back on D3 since this types of attacks are equally good


They may return but that requires heavy restriction. Last time they tried to bring back CB% in a PTR build of D3, it simply overruled everything.
Isn't Attract still in the game? I have this helm called Skull of Resonance and my Threatening Shout turns a group of enemies against one another. What is it called, Charm maybe? Either way, it functions exactly like Attract. As for Crushing Blow, it just was never designed to have that in game. I think Stricken gem is like the closest we'll get.
02/07/2019 07:45 AMPosted by SuperCuddles
I think Stricken gem is like the closest we'll get.


Ah yeah... Close but not really. As far as I know there's only one thing that deals damage based on current health of monsters and it's Bul-Kathos' Wedding Band.
Corpse explosion was fun. So was Monk's exploding palm.

Crushing blow I like in theory but its was way too unbalanced in D2. One problem its restricted to too few items (mostly high runewords and only a few uniques) and not on rares at all. Main problem is the high values; it should have been capped at like 10 or 15% chance and then scaled down more for bosses.
02/07/2019 07:49 AMPosted by naksiloth
02/07/2019 07:45 AMPosted by SuperCuddles
I think Stricken gem is like the closest we'll get.


Ah yeah... Close but not really. As far as I know there's only one thing that deals damage based on current health of monsters and it's Bul-Kathos' Wedding Band.


Oh yeah I meant more like as a boss killer, which Crushing Blow was basically used for in D2, Stricken is the only way. BK yeah ok is more like an extra Pain Enhancer gem
In order for a game to have more nuanced effects and varied damage sources the number inflation from stats and skills has to be in check, which is definitely not the case in D3's design.

Any game designed like D3 basically runs into a problem where the massive amount of multiplicative stat stacking squashes all other non-multiplicative choices mathematically especially after the end-game was tailored to match damage scaling with mob HP scaling. So in order to add a viable affix or effect into such a game it effectively has to be a bigger multiplier than what is already available.

Having said that something like CB is pretty hard to balance. PoE has lots of skills and effects that have % of mob HP effects, but they are all on kill AoE explosions and not dealing %HP of current target. The closest thing it has is culling strike, which kills targets when hit below 10% HP. If there is a huge difference between normal mobs and boss HP then something like CB can become very skewed in value.
02/07/2019 06:17 AMPosted by Orrion
No to the % health spells. They end up being overpowered as hell or completely worthless, depending upon whether bosses are immune to it or not.


Pestilent mist on Dark Souls 3 is a very good spell but is not your main spell and deals damage proportional to enemy HP, it can be useless against very mobile bosses, but make Curse-Rotted Greatwood an cakewalk.

Also, is amazing against dogs and dogs are the worst enemy of any caster

02/07/2019 04:27 AMPosted by Saidosha
HP is that they wind up being really strong. Sorcs being a popular farmer when gear access is minimal is no coincidence, as the access to Teleport and not needing a strong weapon aside,


D2 was not made to be an competitive game, was made to be an fun and interesting experience. And crushing blow for melee characters takes no mana, require no skill points, and is not nerfed on nigh/hell compared to static field.

For certain runs, sure sorc will be better. But nobody can do a better Uber run than a smite paladin. I don't think that all classes should use the same amount of skills, focus on AOE DPS, gear in the same way, etc. Just my opinion.

Iron Maiden had nothing to do with enemy health, reflected damage only scaled with damage dealt.


Sorry. I misspeled. I will edit to "iron maiden uses enemy damage against itself"

02/07/2019 07:52 AMPosted by UngivenFame
Main problem is the high values; it should have been capped at like 10 or 15% chance and then scaled down more for bosses.


Crushing blow is already has 1/5 of the effectiveness against bosses.

02/07/2019 06:53 AMPosted by mungusCREEP
Diablo I and Diablo II didn't have infinite scaling content.


This is why my suggestion is in a possible next diablo. If static field, attract, etc comes to D3, everyone will gonna use it to push on GR.
Using different skills is fine. However when the scenario looks like a boss with 50k HP and 1 player goes from 100% > 75% > 56.25% > 42.19% > 31.64% > 23.73% in 5 attacks or 50000 > 18865 while everyone else has to settle chipping away 750-1000 per attack, you've got a balance problem. And if you doubled the needed number to wipe that same damage, it'd still be quicker than doing it the hard way.

And that's ultimately the point. Too much and it's too good. Too little and may as well just be some sort of flat damage addition. There's not really anything like a "just right" when it comes to HP percentage abilities because mobs are going to have different HP pools between their types/level. And wanting fairness isn't just about facilitating competition, either. It's about making it so there's not clearly a singularly superior choice or two by an epic margin.
02/07/2019 10:18 AMPosted by Saidosha
There's not really anything like a "just right" when it comes to HP percentage abilities because mobs are going to have different HP pools between their types/level. And wanting fairness isn't just about facilitating competition, either. It's about making it so there's not clearly a singularly superior choice or two by an epic margin.
Really that is the point. Trade some universal damage for %hp damage. It slows your kill time for smaller enemies while increasing the time for larger enemies. Its like bonus elite damage except more generic. By adding different damage, flat damage versus %hp damage, or elemental damage types and effects and resistances, we get a situation where there isn't a single superior option because one option excels at one thing and the other option at another thing.

Here is some other numbers to illustrate that it can be balanced pretty well.

Lets consider a player to have 1000 damage. The player could trade 25% of that damage for 100% chance of crushing blow (because 100% was easier in my excel sheet) and lets say crushing blow does 10% HP to normal mobs and 1% HP to bosses. Lets consider that normal mobs have 3000 health and that bosses have 50 times that much.

Under those assumptions it takes 3 hits to kill a normal mob WITHOUT crushing blow and takes 4 hits to kill the same normal mob WITH crushing blow. Without crushing blow it takes 75% as much time.

For a boss, WITHOUT crushing blow, it takes 150 hits. WITH crushing blow, the same boss would die in 110 hits. That is approximately 75% as much time as without crushing blow.

An intermediate monster (non boss) that for example had double life compared to normal (trash) mobs then both situations would have the same kill time.

If normal mobs can be pretty well classified according to the amount of player damage expected without crushing blow into categories as follows: trash (1 hit kill), normal (3 hit kill), large (6 to 8 hit kill) and elite monsters being divided in an analogous manner except multiplied by 10, and boss monsters being 50 times a normal non elite health pool, then we can have a proper devaluing constant for elites and another for bosses so that we have fairly balanced but still unique tradeoffs for crushing blow.

For non elites: Trash would be significantly faster without crushing blow, normal would be about 25% faster without crushing blow, large would be the same or faster WITH crushing blow.
For elites it would follow a similar theme among elites but elites in general would be done faster with crushing blow in the same that boss performance is increased at the expense of trash performance.

For dealing with scaling as the game progresses (cannot handle infinite scaling like D3) requiring larger and larger flat damage in exchange for the same amount of crushing blow will balance increasing mob health relative to player damage if that is the way the game progresses.
Was never a huge fan of Static Field or CB as a mechanic as they both heavily trivialize boss fights while not being super relevant elsewhere.

Bosses being a joke was one of my main grip with D2.
Saidosha, against bosses CB is only 1/5 of the normal mobs. And as you have said, there are situations where an build focused on CB outdps one focused an situations where the opposite happens. In certain situations an smiter will outdps an sorc and in anothers, sorc will outdps. I don't see where is the problem.

Sure, CB on D2 LOD "trivializes" some bosses, but is much more an problem about how powerful gear is on D2 post runewords compared to before.

The problem of D2 is the ridiculous powerful gear. No gear should be like this >
6% Chance To Cast Level 11 Fade When Struck
10% Chance To Cast Level 18 Life Tap On Striking
20% Chance To Cast Level 20 Charged Bolt On Attack
Level 17 Might Aura When Equipped
+330-375% Enhanced Damage
Ignore Target's Defense
60-70% Chance of Crushing Blow
Prevent Monster Heal
Hit Blinds Target
+(0.5 per character level) 0.5-49.5% Chance of Getting Magic Items (Based on Character Level)
https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Last_Wish_Rune_Word

This rune word allow the user to have 70% CB, blind the target, prevents healing while has a chance of casting an curse who can heal the caster, casts defensive spells, increase MF, negates target defense and enhances the damage. If most Paladins runs with 5-15% CB chance, this will not be an problem.
One more thing. About one taking 10% of boss health where another member of the team is dealing almost no damage, this already happens on D3. Compare your damage with full set and your damage with less one piece of gear, or equip an "normal" weapon and see by yourself.
02/07/2019 10:08 PMPosted by L0rdV1ct0r
One more thing. About one taking 10% of boss health where another member of the team is dealing almost no damage, this already happens on D3. Compare your damage with full set and your damage with less one piece of gear, or equip an "normal" weapon and see by yourself.


That’s stupid. You’re describing a difference of gear - which is a variable - rather than a spell that will always act the same regardless of situation.

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